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I think there is some truth to the notion that some rabbonim pasken based on personal biases. Hopefully most do not, but follow the Halacha in the spirit in which it is meant to be followed, always taking into account mitigating factors.
I once asked a Rov an opinion regarding a shailah about what to do if someone using the mikveh could not get all her nail polish off, and there was a chashash of her chalilah not using the mikveh at all, as a result. The Rov’s terse response? “What do women need to wear nail polish for? That’s just nonsense!” So a) that did not answer the shailah and b)it reflected a personal bias that was not conducive to ascertaining the actual halacha in the given situation.
A rov, like most human beings, cannot help but allow his personal feelings to once in a while encroach upon his judgment. If one truly thinks that a particular thing is not good, he will judge accordingly, even when he might not actually be correct. Nevertheless, if you ask that Rov a shailah, be prepared to follow his p’sak.
My own Rov ZT”L, when asked about something of which he personally did not hold but which there was a 100% permissibility, would say, “Some people do it and some don’t. I don’t.” He was machmir on himself, but always looked for the legitimate and non-loophole proper way to be meikeil for someone else. I once asked him about that in response to a kula that he gave me on a personal shailah that I was sure would go in a different direction. When I expressed my surprise at the kula, he told me that anyone could say something is assur. It takes real knowledge of Torah to be able to say when it’s “Muttar.”
I know all that, but it STILL eckles me just the same!!!!! And the cartilage is even MORE yucky to think of being pierced… EWWWW!
Oomis, you have a right to ask for their fee up front, but you do not have a right to bend the halacha to your wishes, and according to halacha, they are not obligated to tell you their fee in advance. “
DY, would you hire a contractor under the same premise? I do not advocate bending the Halacha to suit my wishes, but I think there is an inyan of gneivas daas when you are not told in advance what to reasonably expect. A shadchan could charge ANYTHING then, after the fact. Who hires someone without some reasonable expectation of what it will cost him? And what reputable person in any other field does not state from the outset what to expect to be charging the person hiring him? I never heard of such a thing. Is it ok to do that just because it is a SHADCHAN????
And AZ, if you only found ONE error in my post, I am already ahead of the game!!! 🙂
I will state for the record that I am personally against piercing the ears, because it reminds me of eved nirtzeh. Sorry, but it just is an image I cannot get away from. That said, it is far easier IMO to pierce an infant’s ears, because they won’t pull at the earring studs as a toddler or older child might, and it will be easy to take care of the healing areas. On the other hand, I also feel this is something which is being done to the baby without her consent, and unlike a bris on boys, is NOT required by halacha, so I guess it bothers me a bit. As you can see, I am not so in favor of doing this.
But in the end, if you are going to do it anyway, do it in their infancy. Less traumatic for the baby. My granddaughter’s ears were pierced at around 6 months, and she did really well with them. I am still opposed, though, and my kids all know that, though all my daughters have pierced ears, which they did as teens.I opposed it, but I am not a dictator. They were old enough to make their own decisions at the time. The thought makes me ill.
Red
Why should he nopt drop Chuck – he already dropped the ball!
Sounds delicious!
In the days of heavy use of DDT and other pesticides, there really was not such an inyan of tolaim, as most could not survive in plants. So those who do not recall their parents checking through the fruits and veggies, may well have lived at a time when it was truly not as necessary as it is in recent decades, when the use of these pesticides has been discontinued.
BaalHabooze
At whose Kever? “
If they are drinking too much, chalilah it could end up to be their own.
Any shadchan who does not state his/her fee upfront, IMO does so deliberately, knowing it will be a turnoff to many people (because the fee is probably excessive). It is improper to make a shidduch and THEN hit someone with an outrageous fee that is the so-called “going rate.” I wouldn’t pay ANYONE to do work for me, without knowing the estimated cost in advance.
Someone’s tzavaah to his children is not the same as saying something is mandatory for anyone else’s children. I am sure that Rov ZT”L had a very strong feeling about this, but that does not put a chiyuv on other people to do as he did.
There were compelling reasons at one time in Jewish history, to not marry a girl with the same name as one’s mother. When entire families lived under the same roof, married children included, there was a fear that a husband might call out for his wife by name in the night, and his daughter-in-law would accidentally respond, thinking it was her husband. This is not really such a likelihood today, though I could see the potential for being accidentally nichshal, in the past.
To me the most practical aspect, is that chalilah if one’s mother were to die, her name could not be used for a future daughter that the son might have, if his own wife had the same name as his mother. This applies to men, as well. At least in the Ashkenazic custom, that is. Sefardim hold differently.
I know several very frum young men in full time learning who married women with the same name as their mothers. Hashem should spare any of them from being in the position of needing a name for their mothers for 120 years, and it should all be good.
This thread has totally convinced me that the way my married kids met their zivugim, was far and away superior to what is going on in the shidduch world today. They went to the same college, met each other in class or in the kosher cafeteria among a frum group of friends, and got to know each other as friends before dating, while in that frum chevra. No shadchanim, no shadchanus, no interference, and no problems. The “going rate” from one person’s standpoint, might be absolutely prohibitive from someone else’s. Should the poor girl or boy not be redt shidduchim? MAybe we should plan it that way. A-list Shadchanim for the wealthy, the B class of Shadchanim for the poorer families, and C-class (AKA “Candy-dishers”) for the ones who cannot afford virtually anything.
Internet halacha is ok for some basics (how do we wash for netilas yadaim, what is the correct bracha to make on applesauce?etc.), but each real shailah requires a person actually describing to his/her rov what the inyan is. There may be mitigating factors that alter the decision. The same shailah might be asked of a rov by two different people, who will give two different piskei halacha on that shailah. And both piskei halacha are correct, because the individual situations might seem identical, but might not be.
Your feelings are commendable – but not valid when foisted on others, who want what is rightfully theirs.”
And that is what they should state before doing the job! And I will be honest with you, and say that were I financially well-off, which I am not unfortunately, and I were in a profession that could be of help to someone, I WOULD do it for much less or for a chessed for free. My husband, whose parnassah is teaching, has tutored children for free when they could not afford tutoring. It cannot always be about the money. Let the shadchan state his/her fee outright and not make people feel shocked later on. Until relatively recently, I had no idea shadchanim have a set shadchanus that they expect to get. I thought it was a matana.
Why is the Shadchan’s time and effort less valuable than the caterer, musicians, and the florist’s time, etc most of whom get paid with much profit after having spent way less time? In cases where there is no payment made to a caterer, musician, and florist, etc. its understandable.
Big bucks? $2,000 a year? C’mon. “
If that is the shadchan’s SOLE source of income (as it typically is with the other professionals whom you mentioned), I would agree. And if the shadchan spent as much time training to do his/her job as a musician, I might also agree with you. I still believe they should be upfront at the outset of what their expectations are. And in the case of a non-pro who just happens to think of a nice shidduch for a family member or friend, that just doesn’t sound right to me at all. The zechus of the mitzvah should take precedence over expectations of getting a huge monetary reward, though I think SOMETHING should be given even in that case.
Bruchim habaim. Hope you have already had the refuah shelaima.
Oomis, you must be a big tzadekes (I assume youre a woman), and very out of town’
I wish I were, (correct assumption), and nope. People sometimes don’t like to be shadchanim for the same reason that most people do not like getting paid solely by commission. There is no guarantee of a decent payoff for each potential sale, unless it goes through. So if one goes into shadchanus with the idea of making big bucks, that probably is not the best hashkafa for such a holy endeavor. Neither do I believe that a professional shadchan should be given a “candy dish.” But most poor people do not have a spare $1000 lying around, and if they have more than one child, what are they supposed to do?
Trust – ok. I didn’t say all people did that. I thought I was being clear that all the people whom I HAVE OBSERVED personally, did that. I hope this clears up any confusion you may be still experiencing at what I wrote. I stand by my words.
Takamamesh, my deepest condolences on the loss of your parents. I lost mine within 5 months of each other, both unexpectedly, 20 years ago. It is very painful.
“Eating insects has always been forbidden”
Because that is not a chumrah, it is the HALACHA! Chumros are typically way above and beyond what the halacha requires, and the only danger in them is when the chumrah BECOMES the halacha, and people unfavorably judge others who do not subscribe to that particular chumrah.
And now, after all this discussion, I cannot drink water or eat strawberries, because I believe I will vomit, even though I have never personally seen any tolaim. I once saw a video on strawberry infestation – ugh. I have never seen what came out of those strawberries on any strawberry I ever bought.
I never hear there is a “certain amount” but rather that shadchanus should be SOME amount of money preferably. There is such an inyan, and it is for the mazel of the couple that the shadchanus should be paid.
How could you be mechayeiv a poor parent to pay a “certain amount” to a shadchan? Whatever amount it is, should be accepted graciously. If someone is a professional shadchan, then he or she should be upfront about the amount that is expected, as this is their parnassah. But to a relative or friend?????? pro or no, I cannot imagine they expect “real” shadchanus. My friend recently made a shidduch for a relative and they gave her shadchanus (unrequested by her). She gave the money to the couple for a wedding present.
Smicha has been conferred!
I would say Amein and you, too (or Gam aht or ahtem).
I just say have a good Shabbos.
I’m thinking 5 cents also. But anything more complicated than a quadratic equasion is beyond me. 10 cents just seems too easy.
Isometimesagree – I do not question that this is an important subject to be discussed by a Rov with family emmbers of a choleh. I do question the suggestion that a Godol would say such a hurtful thing to an aveilah during the shiva. That is counterintuitive to everything I have learned about how one should conduct oneself in a shiva house, and the purpose of the shiva visit. Therefore I do not believe that a Rov ever said such a thing at THAT paricular time. There is a time for everything, and that is not it.
Total makes both wheat flakes and Corn Total (like corn flakes). The mailah (supposedly) of Total cereals (which include a raisin bran, and some other type as well, I think), is that all Total cereals purport to give the person who eats a bowl of it, 100% of the daily vitamin requirements of most vitamins and many minerals. hence the name “Total.” Whether or not the claim is true, i think their cereal is delicious.
No matter how we look at his, it is a tragedy for all concerned. So sad.
You mean to say that someone we would consider to be a Godol, would say something awful like that TO THE NIFTAR’S AVEIL during the nichum aveilim??????? I just cannot believe that for a minute, and I do not think you should write such a thing. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by adding agmas nefesh to the aveila. We are not even supposed to say divrei nechama when an aveil is making preparations to bury his meis. Kal v’chomer something so insensitive and accusatory during the shiva. That is just appalling.
A Godol visiting the choleh IN the hospice might rightfully enquire of the staff what is being done for the patient and have a discussion with the family if he sees something wrong is being done halachically. But to say something after the fact, which does NO good whatsoever, and in fact can cause great tzaar to the family to think they allowed their parent to be murdered… sorry, I don’t buy it. That does not sound like the actions of a true Godol, who would find a more appropriate time, if any, to impart that idea, than during the shiva itself. People deal with enough guilt when they lose a loved one. They don’t need such onaas devarim and agmas nefesh added on. That poor daughter.
My aunt died in a coma in hospice care, and she had a gastic food tube and glucose drip in addition to the morphine. Her body organs just shut down quietly one after another and she died. She was not starved to death. She just let go, in spite of the nutrition. Her son came at random times to see her, they never knew when he would show up. Everything was always done properly. I am not saying this is the case in every hospice, though I would hope so, and the rov’s point potentially could be a valid one, but certainly not to say it in the shiva house, if this ever really happened.
I WOULD suggest that hospice care should be a topic of discussion in halacha in every Shul and every Yeshivah. It is important for people to know that they should be vigilant about the care of their loved ones, to ensure that such a thing does not happen, because it WOULD be murder, even with the best of intentions.
I don’t eat them anymore, but standard Wise was always the best for me.
So good.
OY! May he be found safe and sound immediately!
Rule number 1. Your bank, electric company etc. will never call and ask you for your account number. If they dont know it nobody does!”
That’s exactly what I told the scammer who called me, telling me there was a problem with my credit card account and they needed my information. When they asked for my name, address and phone number, I told them, “You called ME, you should already have that info.” Then I was put on hold for a “supervisor” who then proceeded to curse at me. I hung up quickly.
These are ALL scams, and the best thing to do is hang up and call that credit card company, utility, store, etc. and verify that they in fact were trying to contact you. Sometimes they ARE.
Golfer – so kind of you (and I haven’t seen 50 for 12 years!). Thank you for what you posted.
Miritchka – I am glad to see that I am not so old-fashioned as I thought.
Trust – perhaps you misunderstood me. When I wrote ALL, I meant ALL the somewhat negligent people whom I have observed through the last 45 shopping years of my life. WITHOUT exception, I have seen THOSE specific parents being negligent, careless, cavalier, unmindful, casual, heedless,incautious, pick whatever word you want to describe the type of behavior that does not recognize the potential for danger to a child (and NOT all parents are negligent, you are right).
A mom was talking to a friend in front of her own home as her toddler rode off on his tricycle all the way down the block of a VERY busy intersection. He was about to go into the street (she never noticed), and by Hashgocha Protis I walked by on the way to a local store. I saw the toddler about to go into the street, and I never ran so fast. I brought the baby back to his mom, who looked up and said, “Oh he’s fine,” and continued her conversation. So I guess I come from a predisposition to just not rely on parents to always do the right thing, no matter how much they love their children. If you knew me personally, you would realize that this all stems from a feeling of caring for the children, not from a desire to be negatively judgmental.
When my kids would say I am criticizing them for something they are doing that they shouldn’t, my reply always was, DON’T do that, and you won’t ever hear a word of criticism. Simple as that. I would never judge someone as being negligent, were they not IMO BEING negligent. How many parents STILL, knowing how dangerous this is, leave appliance cords dangling over a table or near the stove, or have venetian blinds with the old-style cords and don’t put those cords high up out of the way of curious hands, as they pose a serious strangulation hazard? It never happens – until it does! How many neglect to put outlet covers on all their reachable outlets (because it’s too hard for the ADULT to reach, but a baby easily can)? How many give their very young children whole grapes or frankfurters, popcorn, or round sucking candies, though these are well-known choking hazards? I am not exaggerating about this.
So in the grand scheme of things, perhaps a baby lying across the top of a cart doesn’t bother some of us, and compared to other things that parents might do unthinkingly it is not as risky, but I still would not do it. BTW, this is something I see lots of young mothers do, not just the Jewish frum ones. So don’t take it as a condemnation of the Jewish community.
What the OP wants from us, however, is to judge a specific mother’s care for her children, a mother who he alone saw, and only for a moment in time. Every parent makes mistakes they later regret”
I cannot disagree with that. Maybe this thread has helped to make some people more aware that our actions ARE noticed, and judged as well, and perhaps we all need to think about how we are perceived, whether or not we think we are doing something wrong or neglectful.
LAB, you are correct. I was not implying that Helfgott is in the same league, only mentioning chazzanim whose work I enjoy. Yossele Rosenblatt is my favorite, and I have discovered that the main reason for that is that my father O”H greatly admired his nusach and was always strongly influenced by him. The first time I heard a record by YR, I thought it WAS my father singing. Their voices were very close, with Yossele’s being ever so slightly higher-pitched.
As to Moshe Koussevitsky – I have to disagree with you. Perhaps this was when he was a little older and not so well, and even then he could knock it out of the park. In his prime, he was in one sense like Pavarotti (not comparing the two), effortlessly reaching notes and trills that others could only achieve with great effort, if at all.
Trust, I never did that, if the surface was something they could potentially fall off. I have been shopping for over 45 years, have observed so many parents with their babies, and I stand by my statement.
The only place where I have ever done what you describe is on a changing table, where I had to reach for a diaper. But even though my baby could not yet turn over, I DID place my hand firmly on him for the LITERAL second it took. I have never seen anyone do that while shopping. A relative of mine had the same type of scenario with the changing table, but she did not hold onto her baby for “just a second,” who chose that moment to turn over from his back for the first time. He fell off the table onto the carpet. B”H he was not injured, just scared, and so was she. Never happened again.
I sense that you feel chauvinistic on behalf of these mothers, and think they are unfairly being criticized. I wish that were the case. Their actions could potentially have serious consequences for their children. I said this earlier, I am beginning to think it is a generational thing, this difference of opinion. In any case, isn’t the main objective for the children to be safe? Does it really matter who is right and who is wrong, as long as we are all aware of the need to be vigilant with our children? Though we cannot protect them from every bump and bruise, certain actions are guaranteed to be a potential sakana to them. IMO, this was one such action.
My son could answer this better than I. I only know the names of the chazzanim whom I admire. Anything by Yosseleh Rosenblatt, Moshe Koussevitsky (his Kel Malei IS beautiful), Helfgott (but he has to reach for the notes, Koussevitsky did this seemingly effortlessly),Kwartin, and some other deceased friends of my father’s who all belonged to the Chazzanim Fahrband. When they got together to sing, it must have been l’havdil like the malachim. Jan Peerce in addition to his operatic career also did some chazzanus, not sure if many are aware of this.
Of course it is always a better aspect of Avodas Hashem, to do mitzvos for their own sake, out of your sense of it being the right thing. But ultimately, EVEN if you only do it because Hashem said it’s good, that is still a good thing. It’s a different level of fulfilling the Torah. Is it better to give tzedaka because you recognize that it’s RIGHT and moral to help another Yid? Of course! But even if you DON’T care about its rightness, if you ONLY give it because it’s a mitzvah to do so, you get sachar. The quality of your Tzedaka might not be as pure as the person who recognizes the value of the mitzvah, but it is still worthwhile to be done on its own merits.
To answer OYOYOY’s last post – Of course Mishpat is moral. Hashem only gave us moral mishpatim.
A. I don’t care what others think. The Torah is ABSOLUTE morality.
B. There are i.e., Catholics who believe it is immoral for a person to get divorced and remarried. The Torah permits divorce and remarrioage, follwoing certain guidelines. I go with the Torah, and the Catholics can do what they want.
C. has been answered pretty extensively here, so I think we have exhausted this question. It is ideal to do a mitzvah lishmah, but even if not, eventually most people will come to do them lishma, if at first they do them just because “Hashem said so.”
Thank you, APY for the clarification. Very helpful. 🙂
So if someone has several sons and they all become K”G, would that not mean that either at least some or most of them died in her lifetime, or they became tamei while serving as K”G? How could either of those scenarios be considered a sachar for her tznius? Not trying to be disrespectful – I am having real difficulty understanding the positive aspect of this quote in the Gemarah, when obviously something not so good had to have occurred in order for Kimchis to have so many sons who served in that capacity within her lifetime.
ZD, DY is correct. When there is an unsolved death(a body has been found just outside the boundary of the city (?), a calf is taken and axed in the neck, as a sign that something was deficient in the people of the city where a man could leave and end up dead, with no one caring about him as he left. Some words of mussar are said to the people, too. The Ir hanidachas is a city wherein everyone is corrupt beyond salvation. Two different cases.
DY, forgive my ignorance, but I see this expression a lot and don’t know what it stands for. What is “AFAIK?”
It is called the teen years, and only time can cure that.
I have heard operas that brought me closer to Hashem, I have heard so-called Jewish niggunim that had the opposite effect. Music is a very subjective thing, and what enhances one person’s spiritual emotions, may not have the same effect on someone else.
I love chazzanus. My dad O”H was a chazzan (among many other talents)and I grew up hearing it all the time, and have a great appreciation for its beauty. Nevertheless, only one of my children loves chazzanus, and he davens for the omud professionally for the Yomim Noraim. Not one of my other children particularly enjoys hearing this form of music, even to the point where they cannot be on the same floor of the house when he is practicing before Rosh Hashana. Zaydie is probably turning over in his grave at what I just wrote.
I think that music should be enjoyed (or not) on its own merits.
Is it immoral for me to not take a Lulav on Sukkos?
I would not call that immoral at all. It is sad that someone would deliverately lose out on the opportunity to fulfill a mitzvah, but that is a bechira that affects only yourself, and you are not punished for it, merely lose out on the s’char mitzvah (unless I am grossly mistaken, in which case someone please enlighten me).
Morality, IMO, relates primarily to mitzvos bein adam l’chaveiro, not necessarily to mitzvos that are solely bein adam l’Makom (as your Lulav example was). If you choose to not use a lulav on Succos, you are simply not getting the mitzvah of Lulav. It is not immoral I guess, but it certainly is the failure to do a mitzvah, which is not a GOOD thing.
Most immoral acts seem to connect in some way whether directly or remotely by extrapolation, to one of the three yehareig v’al yaavor mitzvos, if we think about it. Even if one rightfully points out that “just” stealing or cheating on taxes is not one of the three cardinal sins, the way I see it the worship of money (both literal and figurative Mammon), is a form of A”Z, which leads to many ethical fiscal aveiros,and can subsequently lead to the other two cardinal sins for real. ALL cheating stems from the feeling that one can and should take whatever he so desires (ultimately that potentially leads to arayos). I don’t think that is such a stretch, if we are intellectually honest about it. Of course, this is all my opinion and no one has to agree with it.
If you want a concise definition of morality from me, you’re outta luck, Sam. I do not get to define morality, only Hashem does. Which is what I have been saying all along…
maybe even put her hand on it’s abdomen while her face was turned away.”
Get real, Trust. I have YET to see ANY mother (or father) do that while shopping. Typically, they ALL turn their backs “for just a moment,” as they reach for necessary items on the shelves.
Syag, my daughter is also a pediatric OT. She wouldn’t do this, either, but always put the baby in the car seat into the cart, until they could sit up properly in the top of the shopping cart.
As to what you said and I know you did not really mean, regarding my neighbors (“They should lose their children regardless of how much they love them.”), CHAS V’CHALILAH that should ever happen. I would not wish it on any parent. I just wish that ALL parents nowadays would have less of a loosie-goosie attitude when it comes to how they watch or don’t watch their kids at any age. Our precious kids deserve our protection when they are too young to watch out for themselves.
I guess that we have two different styles and comfort levels in certain aspects of child care. That’s fine. I have no doubt that you are and always were very watchful of your children. In the story first posted, I do not think it was so wise of that mom to put her infant in the cart in that manner.
OYOYOY, at the end of the day, the reason you should do it is because Hashem gave us defining rules that HE knows will make us better human beings. Because He could not solely rely on our own innate sense of right and wrong (look at a baby’s or young child’s choices), He gave us a Torah to guide our actions, so that we choose to do the right thing. When you don’t know what’s right or wrong (back to euthanizing the elderly, or what the Nazis Y”Sh did to “defectives,”) you can rationalize away almost ANY wrong action and CONVINCE yourself that it is the right and moral thing to do. Ask that nurse known as The Angel of Death, if she did not believe herself to be a tzadeikes for killing all those terminally ill patients.
So the final answer to this question is, we should do it because Hashem commands us to, and He commands us only to do the morally correct thing.
Keep in mind that everything Hashem tells us to do, is of the highest morality, and He doesn’t ask anything of us that is not inherently good. If we accept that premise, then there is no question about why we need to do what Hashem commands, because it is the ONLY Objective Morality.
oomis, i hear but lets ASSUME that hashem said not to kill cause its an immoral thing taking a life, do we not kill now cause its immoral or cause hashem said so? “
Good question, and I hope I can answer it well. Hashem didn’t say it’s immoral to kill, He just said, “Lo tirtzach.” That’s why we don’t. The fact that it IS immoral is probably WHY He gave us this law, but there are people who think it is NOT immoral to kill certain types of (innocent) people. So if it were left up to them to decide whether or not it is ok to do so, they would say SURE. BTW, it’s not really “Thou shalt not kill,” but rather, “Thou shalt not MURDER,” otherwise one would arguably likewise be prohibited from killing in self-defense, or in war, etc.
Think of the issur on eating chazir. The Torah doesn’t tell us WHY Chazir is not kosher, only that it is one of several animals specified by name as being unkosher, having only one of the two mandatory simanim for kashrus. The fact that pork is known nowadays to have been a source of deadly trichinosis or the like, is wholly incidental and irrelevant as to why we don’t eat it. It might even taste great (I would not know), but it is assur, so that’s that. So do we not eat it because of a million and one logical (moral, so to speak) reasons, or do we not eat it because “Hashem said so?”
One of my friends is like that, and I have to admit it drives me nuts until she gets to the point of something. But I listen anyway.
ALWAYS because Hashem Said so. Present day morality, as we all know too well, is a relative concept. Depending on the society in which we live, it may be moral to euthanize babies and or the elderly or terminally ill. Pre-marital relations between the genders are no longer considered immoral by the secular world. Same gendered people are now permitted to go through the farce of a wedding ceremony. What was once considered seriously immoral is now acceptable societal behavior for many people.
ONLY the Torah is truly Moral. ONLY Hashem detemines what is moral and what is not. So we follow the Torah in the true spirit in which it is meant. That reminds us that how we deal with our fellow man in addition to how we observe the mitzvos that relate to Hashem Alone, is of the highest priority. if we do that, we will always be good people.