oomis

A really good steak tops the list (don’t eat that too often, though). In the dessert arena, a creamy, dense marble cheesecake (I make an outstanding one and it is my favorite), ANYTHING with milk chocolate. AND…. excellent fresh brewed coffee with half and half. The smell alone of challah baking, does it for me.

“when I am driving with my children and we see and/or hear an ambulance whiz by with blaring sirens, we say a perek of tehillim or a short tefilla for whoever is need of the emergency medical help. (not my original idea—I heard it on a tape from an inspirational speaker but can’t remember which one–hope to hasten the geulah anyway despite my inability to say b’shem omro)

One of my children asked me when I suggested this for the first time “how do you know they’re Jewish?” my response was “I don’t—everyone is created b’tzelem elokim, and this will train us to be more compassionate, which will arouse Hashem’s rachmanus which the whole world needs”. “

I re-posted your entire paragraph, because it so resonated with me, that I felt it bore repeating.

“If the table is that uncomfortable just squash in somewhere you are more comfortable no-one minds squashing, it’s all very acceptable.”

You miss the point. a) I did not know ANYONE else there and b) you are mistaken if you believe that no one minds squashing. Yes, they do. Very much! It is not acceptable to show such poor manners as to leave your table and make other people uncomfortable, just because you feel like it. I can see kids doing that (and they shouldn’t), but a mature adult does not play such games. On the other hand, if there are tables with empty seats and no one objects to someone joining them, as often happens, that is a different story. But that does not help when you know no one else at the simcha.

By the time our Gedolim recognize the disproportionate rate of Yissacher/Zevulun and understand the ramifications of same, it will probably be too late. And it doesn’t HAVE to be a problem at all…. our Yeshivah boys and girls need to be educated from birth with the idea that a learning boy should also be an earning boy. If they would not be brainwashed into believing that work is a four-letter word, and understand that Hashem always intended for the Jewish people to work for a living AND learn (how many of our mitzvos are work-related, how to treat one’s employees, what to leave in one’s fields for the poor, trumah and maaser – where did these concepts come from, my imagination???), then they would not be so resistant and derisive of the idea that im ein kemach ein Torah. My dad z”l got up early every morning in order to be able to learn before going to work. He learned when he had breaks, he learned after work, and he learned before going to bed.When he had a wife and family, he continued to learn, but ALSO spent quality time with his family every day (something I often see NOT happeneing among some of the yungerleit with whom I am acquainted). Maybe he did not sit in the beis medrash all day, but he made a p’shara between his desire to learn and his need to earn a parnassah to help support his family. His father was a Rov, and taught him that while it is important to learn Torah every day, it is also important to provide for one’s family and be well-educated.

Thanks, GivPerf.

oomis1105: refuah shilayma-feel better!!!!

THANKS SO MUCH!!!!! I feel like a tired wrung out towel right now, but I have high hopes for a better day tomorrow. HALEVAI!

I am totally in agreement with dd. I have gone to separate seating weddings where the only people I knew were the baalei simcha, my husband, and one other person. Oddly enough I was not seated with the one female whom I knew. It was a very uncomfortable experience, because after a perfunctory hello, nice to meet you, the ladies at my table conversed amongst themselves, and I could not really get in there. I was able to get a message to my husband, who was likewise being ignored (we are very friendly people, so it wasn’t that we didn’t make an effort), and we left the wedding right after the main dish. Truthfully, this situation would not have been any worse without arranged seating, but it certainly underscores how important attention to seating really is. You want everyone to be as comfortable as possible at your simcha.

“oomis – tacky. i would never say something like that. you just don’t look and make sure to NEVER eat out with that person again! “

And here I thought I was being sensitive to the idea of subtly making the other person conscious of his own eating habits, without actually calling attention to his poor manners. And what if that person is someone with whom you WANT to go out again, and the manners are the only problem? BTW, for your information, my method is not only NOT tacky, it is the recommended practice for getting an unpleasant point across to someone whose feelings are important to you. By making a personal comment but directing it impersonally to someone else, usually hamyvin yavin. When someone in your office has bad body odor, do you tell them and risk embarrassing them, or do you talk about a variety of things, like your recent shopping excursion and mention a few bargains that you found INCLUDING a really nice smelling deodorant that you see really works so well for you. You hope the person will take the hint, but keep his/her dignity intact. In any case, not all people are in a position to “not look” at the person with whom they are dining.

I agree, it really depends on the eprson. If it is your child or a relative in your peer group or even a close friend, you have different options. If it is someone with whom you need to watch your Ps and Qs, like a parent, an in-law, date, then you need to be more subtle or be mevateir altogether. If I were in a restaurant with someone doing that, I might make some kind of comment like an, “Oh my goodness,” and when the person asked me what elicited that comment, I would say, ” I couldn’t help but just notice that couple over there near us. He was chewing with his mouth open. That’s just so gross! I really appreciate people with good table manners!” Hopefully, that would encourage the person to live up to your expectations. At least, you have given subtle mussar without directing it specifically at him (or her).

No “flaming” allowed. One can disagree without being disagreeable. Calling someone an apikores or the like, is really insulting, and should not be permitted. Likewise, calling someone a stupid fanatic (don’t know if anyone did that, but I want to be fair-minded).

Teenager, it sounds as though you are getting back on track, B”H. If you still need people to talk to, the people who were mentioned are a gerat start. You could contact them throguh teh Jewish Press. Good luck to you.

tb,

I don’t advocate anyone putting himself into sakana. But it is still easier to learn when you stay in your daled amos of the yeshivah, than if you venture into the world, get a job, and still manage to do your learning. A true ben Torah does not have to fear the real world. He has already been given the tools to fight the “sakanas hamakom.” It is the boys who are not streetwise, who have not been out in the world, who when FORCED into the world (as we all must be, if we are to make a parnassah), cannot cope with some of the things they see. Being sheltered is a double edged sword. If you do not get an innoculation by exposure to a small amount of a disease, you cannot develop the proper immunity to it, either. Neighbors of mine from my childhood, lovely people, always dressed their youngest son in all white. He was a sweet boy, but never allowed to get dirty, or play normally. The child never had a spot on him. He became ill, and had no immunities to anything, and died that year of a compromised immune system. The best way to fight the yetzer hara is to face it head on and use the learned lessons of Torah to combat it. And I repeat one more time (am I certfiably crazy, too?), if it is sakana for Yeshivah men to go out in the world, how much MORE so is it for the women, who are forced to do so in order to support their husbands by working in the men’s stead. Sorry – there is something very wrong with that picture. The women need protection from the shmutz outside, much more than their husbands do. yet no one sees anything at all wrong with THEM being exposed to it, because it means the guys get to stay in the Beis Medrash.

I haven’t been to Y”vSH in over thirty seven years, but from my recollection it was a very different type of experience than going to the one in Washington, D.C. D.C. is, to my recollection, an unbelievably REAL experience, with the videos, the “house” experience, the constant visuals. When you see a pile of shoes yea high, and realize that they were actually worn by people who were systematically murdered en masse, it connects you in a way that pictures and plaques do not. As I said, I have not been there (or to E”Y) in a few decades, but this is my recollection from that time. Both experiences are horrific, and we are merely VISITORS. People actually lived and died through that horror, and that is what I can never wrap my mind around.

When you talk to your kids about eating properly for good health, brushing their teeth, so they don’t get cavities, getting enough sleep, not smoking cigarettes, why can you not also talk about illicit drugs. When the kids (who are old enough to understand) get antibiotics, this is a perfect pitchon peh for them, to initiate the concept of drugs that doctors prescribe for you to help you be healthy, and drugs that are never prescribed for people, because they only make people unhealthy and are illegal. You tailor the conversation to the age and comprehension level of the child. Just like the facts of life.

Notpashut, I guess we will not see eye to eye on this issue, but you express yourself well, nonetheless and I can respect that. Maybe your own way of dealing with the kiruv issue is commendably warm and welcoming. It is not so in much of the chareidi world, in spite of what you believe.

1) “I dont think I did a very good job explaining my thoughts. This is hard to convey this way. My heart goes out to everyone effected by children off the derech. “

Yes you did. You said it quite well.

2) “now I’m going to say something that will really get you & oomis & sjs REALLY insulted. But please understand I’m not trying to hurt anyone’s feelings…we’re just trying to have a constructive dialoge here.O.K. here goes…Oomis & sjs pointed out that it’s a lot easier for someone off the derech to reintegrate to Modern Orthodox society. Both seemed to feel that this was because an off the derech person feels “looked down upon” by the black hat community.”

Might I offer a different, simpler & in my opinion more accurate explanation?

Because Modern Orthodoxy is closer than Chareidi life to the lifestyle they are living now.”

I don’t insult easily, so don’t worry. I disagree with you, though. What you imply is that Modern Orthodoxy = not so religious.

There are many levels of frumkeit within the MO life. Many of us who consider ourselves MO, (talking about women now) cover our hair at all times after marriage, wear clothing that covers our bodies properly, daven three times a day, keep Taharas Hamishpacha to the nth degree, and Shabbos and Kashrus without a question, go to shiurim regularly, and do tons of chessed work in our communities. We have also learned that when a child goes off the derech chalilah, it is not something to hide, but to seek help in dealing with it, working hard to keep the lines of communication open, and accepting that child, so he or she will have a place they WANT to come back to.

The only thing I would not tolerate is the use of drugs. If my child did drugs, he would have to live elsewhere and I would try to get him help in kicking them. But if what he rebelled in was being mechallel Shabbos, or hanging out with less than desirable friends, I would hope I would try to draw him closer. I have not had this problem, so it is easy for me to say all this, from the comfort of my chair. But I have seen firsthand what happens when the chareidim “lose” one of their own. The parents nebbich are the subject of a lot of gossip and whispers (and what a lovely example of middos bein adam l’chavero THAT shows!), and forget about the effect this has on shidduchim for the other kids. Why do you think Lubavitch (and I am not Lubavitch) has been so successful in their kiruv work? They bring people closer to Hashem with love and chessed. Our kids who went astray are far likelier to respond to being welcomed back with warmth, than being made to feel “it’s my wasy or the highway.” The middle of the road is to be commended, not castigated.

“i’m probably prettier than three quarters of the girls out there…”

Don’t hold back – tell us what you REALLY think! 😉

Tb, I appreciate that there are sakanos in the world. But how weak are our young men if they can’t start to face them? And why is putting our women out on the front lines to face them now a lechatchila? What’s happening to our families? Does it have to be Torah OR strong families with a mother who can be home, if not full time then part time?

Tzippi (my daughter’s name and spelling of same, btw), I agree with you.

“On this note I read somewhere that on average a woman eats anywhere from 17- 26 lbs of lipstick over her lifetime! I don’t know how accurate that is but that sure makes me very nauseous”

And the average person probably eats way more poundage of BUTTER over his or her lifetime. Now the thought of eating globs of plain butter makes ME nauseous!!!!! It’s all in the perspective…

.(p.s. it is assur for a girl to learn gemarah, i got this from my shtark bros.)

Yeah??? Talk better to their shtark SISTERS!

Why is a dog different from any other tamei animal? If you own a farm, do you have horses and/or donkeys???? Please. If your response to that is, “Well they don’t live in the house,” can you have a parakeet? Did people not keep cats in their home to get rid of mice?

Yes there are specific halachos about dogs (muktzeh to touch on Shabbos, assur to “walk” them unless they are pulling you and not vice versa, etc.). I personally did not grow up with a dog in the home. I was scared to death of them, and did not get over my fear until my teen years. When I was 20 years old, my beloved maternal grandmother who had lived for the last 15 years with us died. During her year-long illness, she had occasionally had hallucinations, when her medication built up too strongly in her blood and she needed a blood transfusion. Her hallucinations were always the same. She saw a small black and white dog lying under her sewing machine in her bedroom. When she died, on what would have been both her Jewish birthday AND was her shloshim, a black and white Springer Spaniel mix came into our backyard, sat himself down by our back door and made himself a place to sleep. He would not leave, but stayed in place. Finally we had rachmanus and left him some food. He ate and left. THEN, he came back and again stayed at the door. This went on for two days, with us (foolishly, as some people said)left food for him. Each time, he ate, left, then returned and sat back down, like he was guarding the door. The third day, it was Shabbos, and storming with thunder and lightning. We heard a howling, and we couldn’t bear that he sounded so scared, so we let him in out of the rainstorm. When the storm stopped, we immediately opened the door for him to go out. He started to go out halfway, then looked to his right and then to his left, stopped, and then slow-w-w-w-wly backed into the house. That was it, this dog was ours. Whatever any of you might be thinking right now, and even if you are laughing your heads off, we, the totally non-dog family, became a dog-loving family. We could not help but feel like Bubby had sent us this dog, to give us someone to care for, now taht she was gone. And you know what – Max (as we named him) was incredibly and fiercely protective of us, very loyal and loving, and especially devoted to my mom. Every night he waited for my parents to come home from work, standing guard at the door five minutes before they arrived home. How he knew the exact time,(it varied every day), we will never know, unless his hearing being so acute,he recognized the sound of their car’s motor from blocks away.

I personally would not get another dog, but sometimes it is a very good thing to have one. if you don’t agree,then by all emans, do NOT get a dog.

Charades are always fun, Pictionary, too. The little ones cannot play that, but they don’t have do be in ALL the activities. Myabe they can watch a Chanukah video or something of that nature. A magic show sounds like fun, but unless someone in the family is geshikt that way, it is pricey.

SJinNYC, believe me when I tell you some women NEED cosmetics. B”H that you don’t, but many of us could use a little help to look our best. The “natural” look is not always best, especially if one has bad skin, dark undereye circles, colorless eyelashes and brows,etc. Not everyone is a natural beauty.

completely and totally redundantly redundant!

So are “completely” and “totally.”

Several years ago my local UPS delivery guy who often dropped off my neighbors’ packages by me if they were not home, stopped by my house on Purim day, to tell me his truck has just been hit by a drunk teenage driver. The kid was so drunk, he didn’t even realize he was bleeding. He had run a light. The UPS guy knew I am Orthodox, and he wanted to know if this was a Jewish thing for kids to get drunk. he realized it was a Jewish holiday, seeing all the kids in costumes in the street, etc. He didn’t want to call the police, but he did take the kids keys away and took him home and told the parents what the kid did. I don’t know how the story played out, as the UPS guy’s route was changed, but I can tell you one thing. The chillul Hashem this dumb kid and EVERY dumb kid like him who gets plastered and tries to use the excuse that it’s Purim (or a chasunah, or Simchas Torah, or it’s medicinal), is beyond the pale. These are kids whose parents need to wake up and smell the Slivovitz.