Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Hashem Yishmor from what, exactly? I think this conversation is better served on a Cosmetics Blog perhaps, but are you objecting to the DISCUSSION or to the wearing of nail polish by frum females?
If to the discussion itself, I agree this is not the place for talking about various nail polish colors.
But if you object to women beautifying their hands by wearing polish, that is a whole different type of hashkafic discussion, and I am pretty certain women applied all sorts of reddish cosmetic to their hands throughout the ages (i.e., henna). So what is it that you find disconcerting, the discussion on this specific forum, or the fact of the existence of nail polish altogether, in the frum world?
Personally, I think they spend way too much time with this. I have no issue with educational games, but I am opposed to violent ones.
And we are surprised, why, exactly?????? It is APPALLINGLY obvious where our administration’s true allegiance lies.
Why not? Sometimes you want one OR the other.
Aleph born Jewish, Beis is not converted according to halacha, so needs geirut if he wants to be a frum Jew.
Be good, may you and all our unattached children soon build your bayis ne’eman b’Yisroel.
Be good, I am going to do something I don’t typically do – retract a statement. As I re-read what I wrote, I thought better of how I posted it. Let me rephrase, if she is bothered by being asked to answer a question that will no doubt come up when being redt shidduchim, she will have to find a way to deal with the issue in a comfortable way. The suggestion to say she is looking for a shidduch in such and such an age range, is a good one. I did not intent to hurt anyone’s feelings, and I am sorry.
I married relatively late (I was nearly 26), sompared to my friends, and it was a sensitive thing, especially as my younger sister got married five years earlier, and my relationship with the fellow who I was sure was about to propose, broke up right after she got married. I understand from personal experience how some people feel about these questions.
But – it is not a crime to be an older single person. It is not something of which to be ashamed. It IS sad, if one is lonely and watching his/her friends get married and nothing meaningful is happening. So when well-meaning people who WANT to set you up ask questions that make you uncomfortable, you have to find a way to answer the relevant ones, without making a big deal out of it, and forgive the others for the intrusive questions. I do not personally feel that AGE is an intrusive question, but if someone else does, then I agree that a sensitive way needs to be found to deal with the issue. I am sorry that my original answer might have caused additional agmas nefesh to anyone.
I am definitely in some sort of shape. There has not yet been a name created for it, though!
The girl got the opportunity to go out with a TOP BOY, of course.
The frum community needs to get involved. ACS reporting is mandatory for people in the health professions and social workers who are aware of a problem. If you are merely a neighbor who notes things going on, perhaps you can get your local shul involved, a Rov and Rebbetzin, Bikur Cholim, etc. to see how they can help.
Find out who their family members are and if due to their seeming lack of interest it becomes NECESSARY, let it “slip” that you heard that someone has been talking about calling in Child Services. That sometimes spurs errant family to get involved where they have made themselves “nisht visindig” prior to this, expecting other people to pick up the slack. And if they only do it because of fear of what other people might say (I have seen that, too), it is still probably better than social services getting involved.
Nothing wrong with trying to make a shidduch, BUT you should know approximately how old each involved party is. The teacher might have been sensitive about her age, but if she is older, she should expect it by now, and if much younger, she will have to deal with this maturely. If she is too sensitive to answer what is a very basic and legitimate question, she is not serious about wanting to find her bashert. Most guys want to know how old the girl is, and vice versa.
Mazel tov on making a simcha, kein yirbu!
Now, we’re talkin’!
The MODS – definitely!
Can you get to an Aish HaTorah Discovery Seminar? You can get great Chizuk from one of those. Also, remember you are a teenager, and it’s so common for teens to have these questions in general, and sometimes feel a spiritual limbo. You need to find a good friend who is grounded in frumkeit, but non-judgmental who will listen to what you are saying and feeling right now. Someone who can help to inspire you to understand that Yiddishkeit is not just a general spiritual feeling, but that there are very real minutiae and details that need to be followed in order to achieve that spirituality. A blueprint whose minutest details are not followed by the builder, will produce a structure that falls apart.
If feeling and believing were enough, we could all be non-Jews. That’s what they believe, that faith alone is required to be a religious person.
As Yidden we believe that faith must lead to action. Hashem does not need our brachos, nor even for us to follow the Torah. However, He DESERVES that we do all that because He continuously and miraculously takes care of us. He revealed Himself to all of us at Har Sinai, and by following the Torah (especially the part about not eating pizza after just a little meat, and by making a bracha on what we DO eat), we are demonstrating our appreciation and love for Him, and our recogniztion that He is the Source of every single thing we have.
Hakoras hatov is a very serious character trait to have, and that is what every bracha is, a recognition of the tov. It’s not enough to just “feel” it. The ten seconds or less that it takes to make a bracha, shows we appreciate what we are getting from the One in Whose Name the bracha is being made. That is something we need for ourselves, to make us better, more appreciative people. Hashem does not need to hear it. But we owe it to Him and we need to SAY it.
The way she is typically dressed would make the average bachur blush.then there are the other patrons as you pointed out.”
APY, I actually had forgotten about the scantily-clad waitresses. How is THAT ok for them to be around that type of scene?
Golfer, it’s all OK. I was not feeling chastised at all. My reference to shidduchim talk as being hot button, is only my observation that it elicits a great deal of reaction whenever it is mentioned. Politics likewise evoke strong reactions. I know personally how stressful shidduchim can be, but it really behooves each of us to try and not add to the stress levels by saying or doing counterproductive things, with our good intentions. A great deal of damage is done by well-meaning folk.
When I say hot button, I mean that everyone has something to say, it is an issue that people have strong feelings upon which they express themselves. Doesn’t have to be a rancorous discussion. Only a lively one.
Trust, I had written a long answer to your last post, but apparently Hashem did not want me to post it, and made my computer go weird just as I was sending it. (Emes).
So I am taking this to be that I should only deal with the one thing that I wrote at the end, and leave it at that. You asked”
“If your child were seeing someone who was chronically late and didn’t even apologize? Would that concern you? Or would you think, you don’t own him and therefore you have no right to expect him to come on time?”
This has absolutely nothing to do with the issue we have been discussing. It is apples and elephants (not even oranges). What you are describing is someone who habitually disrespects his date. has nothing to do with ownership or rights, but simple thoughtfulness and consideration. Someone who is chronically keeping someone else waiting (whether for a date, or for an appointment, or for a lunch out with a friend, and does not have the decency to show regret and apologize (at the least), demonstrates a clear disrespect for that person’s feelings and time.
A boy who is dating for a short time, has every right to go on a short vacation, without feeling obliged to get “permission” from the parents of a girl he has gone out with only a very few times (in your case you said, after two dates). And a mom who shows her pushy hand too soon in the game, and moreover, casts aspersions on the boy’s character in the process, says more about herself than about the boy in question. Should he tell this mom everytime he wants to go out with his friends, too? He went to Israel, not Las Vegas.
If the mom was worried that he might be meeting another shidduch there (I don’t believe that was mentioned, but I no longer have the column, so I cannot be sure), I would still tell her, stay cool. Don’t make mountains out of molehills. Don’t put the cart before the horse… and whatever other applicable trite expression of which I can think.
I realze that you and I might have very different concepts about shidduchim, and kol hakavod, but whether more charedi or less charedi, mothers universally need to reign themselves in before frightening prosepctive sons-in-law away and nizing their daughters’ chances for happiness, especially when we have so many single young men and women today.
As I said somewhere, the shidduch issue is a hot button one. I suppose we will all have opinions until moshiach comes, but as long as we make shidduchim for all our kids, I don’t have a problem with any legitimate means to that end.
DY don’t be curious. Were I to elaborate, someone might recognize the girl or situation, and she would be embarrassed. Her behavior showed some serious mental issues. This was a shidduch, BTW. The shadchan clearly had no clue. As with every profession, there are good practitioners, and those who are less so.
Ok, so please elaborate on how and where you think they should be meeting that would replace the shadchan.
Also, you’ve made this point before about hotel lounges. I don’t think you are very familiar with hotel lounges though, since your description is fortunately not at all accurate. I am very familiar, I have, shall we say, been in quite a number of them, on quite a number of occasions. “
I believe in there being LOTS and lots of singles events that are low or no cost (how that low fee will be accomplished, I don’t know, but first things first). Interesting lecturers (NOT SHIURIM per se), who are willing to give of their time l’shem mitzvah, to discuss interactively with the group, and engender an environment where the young men and women TALK to each other in groups and then individually, would be ideal. There are SOME such groups that meet, but clearly not enough. And there is too much stigma on the notion that it is not tzanua. If it is tzanua for them to talk to each other ON a date, it should surely be tzanua for them to talk in order to want to date.
As to the hotel lounges, well… you’re right, I have absolutely no firsthand knowledge of them. My children did not date that way. But from everything I have heard from my friends’ children, male and female, it is not the best climate in which to be (Even the Marriott). IS there no secular music playing(I thought that was a no-no for the more right-wing among us), no smoking, no non-Jewish people on dates there who are drinking alcoholic beverages and possibly acting even just a little bit in ways that could make frum people feel uncomfortable? Perhaps not, and I am totally, flat-out mistaken. But that is not what I have been told.
I have friends whose kids are Yeshivish and they themselves are not (Shana Bet was a strong influence). THEY feel uncomfortable with their sons and daughters going to hotel lounges. Personally, and weather permitting, I think a date in the park is nice. It’s a public place, they can bring a picnic lunch (he OR she), and certainly get to talk. And if things get a little shy or awkward, there are always the swings…or the duck pond. OK OK, so it’s cold weather now, and most dates are in the evening. I simply cannot believe there is NOWHERE to go other than a hotel lounge. In my day, it was the airport!!!!!
You said it Golfer.
Thank you, oomis, for never failing to respond to a post.
*Most Courteous Poster Award* goes to you, as usual.
(I sincerely hope Miss SUC will forgive me for handing out awards.)”
Golfer, I thank you most sincerely, because I value THAT particular description of me.
To try to answer you more thoroughly, MOST boys do not ask for a picture, in my particular experience (which is not to say it doesn’t happen elsewhere). However, I feel that where this DOES happen, it is because it has in many cases lost the stigma of being a really impolite thing to do. A fine, TOP boy, can and should be attracted to his date/mate (so should everyone). But a fine top boy (and are they not ALL?) should not focus in on the externals before even MEETING the girl. That is simply inconsistent with the hashkafa that I have been led to believe is Ratzon Hashem. If she is a baalas middos, ehrliche frum, and looking to build a bayis ne’eman b’Yisroel, those are qualities that do not tend to fade with time. If she is also pretty in HIS eyes, that’s icing on an already well made cake.
If I were a shadchan, I would want to find common ground between the boys and girls. I would NEVER give a picture of the boy OR girl out, and if someone insisted, I would not make that shidduch. Period. That shows me the person is more interested in dating the picture than the person. The was once a story of a wealthy man who sent a picture of his wallet to a dinner committee that wanted to honor him. He sent along a note basically stating that as it was clear it was his money that they wanted to honor, he would just as soon stay home, and send his wallet in his stead.
RebYidd, I know of someone who when the girl opened the door to him, unthinkingly said, “Oh no!” and left. Apparently she was not pretty enough to suit his very highly refined sense of aesthetics.
What a loser that guy was! And a jerk. I went out with my share of guys who were not attractive to me, but each date taught me something new about the process and about being able to talk to anyone, and put me one step closer to the person I did marry.
Chumchuck – if you downgraded the date from say dinner to just a soda or coffee, her parents surely will ask her where you went, and if they thought it was going to be a very different type of date, she WILL be offended, when she realizes why you did it.
My son went out on blind dates with girls who were not for him l’chatchilah, but who came highly recommended and he often knew that within moments of picking them up. He nonetheless ALWAYS made sure that they enjoyed the date, followed through on whatever had been planned, and only in one case was he ever sorry that he did not simply cancel the date altogether. Even if the particular girl or guy are not for each other, they might have friends or relatives who would fit the bill so why give them a bad impression of each other. In any case, one should always be a mensch, regardless.
If the girl herself brought this up, I would gently tell her she has no real claim on him. And even if she did, i.e. they were nearly engaged, which was not the case here to our knowledge, she comes across as extremely insecure, petty (to not fahrgin him a short trip to Israel), and controlling. I would think it would raise some red flags for the BOY! There was nothing indecent about the boy going away for chanukah. The mom made a big deal out of nothing. If she was that worried about his character, why approve the shidduch, to begin with? If they are of the mindset that three to five dates confers some sort of serious commitment then surely they checked him out to death prior to the first date.
Uptight is the right word. I certainly don’t advocate going to poolhalls, but neither do I like the traditional lounge date. What kind of place is that for frum kids? Do you have any idea how much pritzus goes on in hotels, starting at the bar?
It doesn’t help to tell you that attraction often grows. Those of us who have been there and know this to be true, already know it. Those who don’t believe it, cannot easily be convinced. But it IS true. Looks change over time, sometimes sooner than one expects. Unless someone is a completely awful date, it pays to go for a second chance.
Why I seem fixated on the boys’ mothers is because I have never yet met a girl’s mom who demanded to see a pic prior to saying ok. The boys themselves, especially if yeshivish, are not so involved in the process in my experience. Is that they case 100% of the time? I am sure not. But I have seen it over and over in the last ten years. I have many friends who are by the book followers of the shidduch “rules” and they were the arbiters of whether or not a girl was good enough for their sons. Often, they wanted to see a picture first, even though the girl had alle mailos.
Sorry, but I respectfully could not disagree more! No mama has the right to be making demands on someone who has only recently begun to date her daughter. Were I that boy, this would raise major flags with me, as to the kind of interfering shvigget I could be getting! She does not own him.
How about being MISQUOTED in the real world?
Personally, I think the men are blessing Hashem for not creating them to be the child-bearers, to have to go through pregnancy and labor, and then yipes – actually rear the children (for the most part). It is a tough job for tough people, and men are simply not tough enough or cut out for such an undertaking. (JUST KDDING, FOLKS!)
Some people think a girl who wears a size 12 or 14 dress is overweight – Lucille Ball was that size, and she never looked overweight to me.
I don’t believe that’s possible. She looks more like a size 2 or 4. I’m a size 4 for anyone who wondered and she looks thinner than me. I think you mean Marilyn Monroe and even she looks thinner than that. “
Interjection, I just looked it up for confirmation. Lucille Ball was indeed a size 12. Vivian Vance was about 10 lbs. heavier, but made to look frumpier, so she would look much heavier than Lucy.
No one would look at Lucille Ball and think she was fat. But by our foolish standards today, she most certainly would be considered to be un-shidduch worthy (by weight alone), were a shadchan to be asked to redt her a shidduch. That, IMO is beyond sick.
DY, Moshiach is DEFINITELY coming!!!!!!!
OK Oomis, heard you, got it.
No mothers.
What do you say when a guys wants to see a photo before he dates?
Looks are subjective. And he wants to see for himself how she looks before they go out. So?
And btw, you’re making me very curious where you live/ what community you’re part of. You mention often how important it is for a girl to be neat & for a guy (found this on another thread) to brush his hair and teeth and shower (!!!!) before he goes out. I never came across a guy (or girl) that needed instruction in basic hygiene before a date. Admittedly some look more pressed and put together than others, but unbrushed teeth (Ewww) ? What gives? “
Golfer – I am opposed to ANYONE, boy or girl stipulating to seeing a pic of the prospective shidduch before they will deem them worthy of meeting them. Pictures lie. And someone’s personality can affect their looks. There are visually stunning people who are so self-absorbed and shallow, that when you get to know them, they are a total turn-off. There are some plainer, but really wonderful people who get to be more attractive as the date wears on, because their sense of humor or personality is so sparkling, that it takes you by surprise.
This inyan about seeing a photo is relatively new. Ten years ago, no one would have had the chutzpah to demand such a thing before arranging a blind date. For the shadchan to MEET the young man or woman prior to making an arrangement – yes. That makes total sense. But for the prospective in-laws or boy and girl?????? For a chevra that is hung up on seeing lack of tznius everywhere, it frankly disturbs me greatly that this ever became a thing to do.
As to my community? I live in a frum, non-Brooklyn neighborhood. I know people whose kids have dated people from an eclectic set of demographics, and yes, there have been times that some dates have been less than well-groomed. As I do not want to ascribe this fault to any one group of guys (or girls, but you see it more with guys), I will refrain from doing so. If any guy reading this is guilty of not taking sufficient pride in his appearance and personal hygiene, then hamayvin yavin.
Ironpenguin and BYmaidel +1
You both expressed yourselves very maturely. If you are looking for shidduchim, I hope you both find the right ones b’korov.
B”H that SCIENCE now acknowledges what we have known for 3500 years.
Looks ARE subjective. What I find attractive, you may not deem so. Some people think anorexically thin size zero girls are more attractive. I do not, and find it disgraceful that it is such an issue in shidduchim today. Some people think a girl who wears a size 12 or 14 dress is overweight – Lucille Ball was that size, and she never looked overweight to me.
Some girls think guys who have facial hair are unattractive, others would find them less attractive without that facial hair. Some people like blue eyes and blonde hair, some think redheads are gorgeous, and others are turned off. It is ALL subjective. Why we are attracted to the look to which we are attracted, is a mystery that not even we can understand. We only know we are or are not attracted. And we cannot discount that mystery. It is why in my humble opinion NO MOTHER SHOULD SEE A PHOTO OF A GIRL before her son has met the girl. Her opinion of “attractive” should not be what determines whom he will meet. Neat, and presentable, trump someone else’s possibly flawed perception on looks, any day.
It’s so amazing to me, how MANY of our threads and posts relate to this subject. Obviously it pushes a lot of buttons.
That’s actually a very nice thought within the name. 🙂
I think parents often mess up their kids shidduchim, without being aware of what they are doing and how counterproductive their actions could be. A mother wrote to the shadchan in the “Flatbush Jewish Journal,” about being annoyed that the boy her daughter was dating a few times, was going to E”Y for Chanukah. She wanted to know if they had a right to be upset with him, and I think basically she was saying she felt he had no business going on a trip while dating her daughter, and wanted to know should they be concerned about him.
FTR, this letter was presented once before (did they think I would not notice????), some time ago. I thougt then, and think even more so now, that this mom had best keep her pushiness to herself, before she scares the boy off with her demands about how he spends his vacation time when he is not yet even near to officially committed to her daughter. Anxious moms make anxious children, and anxious prospective in-laws. STAY COOL. If it is meant to be, do your hishtadlus, and then accept that the rest is in Hashem’s Hands.
NeutiquamErro, would you please tell me what your name means?
Little Froggie, I am most assuredly, indubitably, indisputably, unquestionably, without any doubt whatsoever, a female. Personally, I hate when people pretend to be something they are not, online. It smacks of gneivas daas to me. No bubba maisas from me…unless I am talking about my aineklach. Then Bubby cannot help herself! 🙂
Owl, I certainly did not mean to chew anyone out. I DO agree with virtually everything you had to say about shadchanim. I think that they should take courses in sensitivity and tact, because telling a girkl she needs to drop thirty lbs. or she will never get married, is onaas devarim, among a whole host of other things (even if it’s true that she needs to lose weight). Not getting back to people who call is a function of the process. One person who is networking for 100s of young people at one time, cannot be relied upon to get back quickly. There are just so many hours in the day. They also conversely have a vested interest in sealing the deal, so often a shidduch is proposed (by a pushy shadchan), when it really is not appropriate. If the girl or boy say no, then then are berated for not being serious about wanting to get married. That, too, is onaas devarim.
I stand by everything I said earlier. If a boy and girl are unable to do what their parents and grandparents most likely did before them, and have a simple conversation on the phone to arrange a date, they are socially hobbled by something that has NOTHING whatsoever to do with tznius, and everything to do with not allowing them to grow up.
I remember going out with a nice fellow around 7 or 8 times, but I was not feeling anything about progressing further. Did I ask my mommy or the person who set us up to tell him that? No. It was uncomfortable, granted, to tell him that it was not working, but there are MANY uncomfortable scenarios in life where we need to say no to someone nice about something that is potentially awkward, and the sooner kids learn how to handle these social issues, the better. As I said earlier, this has become a mindset with which our frum youth have grown up. Things were very different decades ago, and IMO, much better, with all due respect. We surely did nto have such a crisis. It was a rarity to see an unmarried person in their 30s and 40s or more. Now, it’s epidemic, along with the early divorce rate (a whole ‘nother issue).
Popa, seriously?????????
I guess we will have to agree to mostly disagree, DY. And you did not disappoint me. By the way, I for sure do not advocate a free for all. I just think boys and girls need to demonstrate maturity prior to dating and one way of seeing that maturity is in the simple ability to communicate with each other, without the need to be spoonfed each line by someone else.
DY, I should have bought a lotto ticket – KNEW you would be the one to answer right away! 🙂
“That is absolutely not true.”
That is where we disagree the most, probably. If you grew up with the exact mindset that I did, you would not think that certain things are untzniusdig. I am not talking about unquestionable issues of tznius, where there can be no compromise. There are however, people who think it is i.e. untzniusdig for a boy to speak to a girl altogether, unless they are already dating. How is he supposed to have a conversation with her when it IS the perceived proper time, if he has know idea how to speak to her normally, to begin with? Dating should not be so intimidating for our young men and women.
Rus, the great-grandmother of Dovid Hamelech, who was KNOWN for her tznius, did something that by some folks’ way of thinking would have probably been considered extremely scandalous, when she went to meet Boaz in the night. Never mind that it was for a tachlis. To me this is a no-brainer. Something’s gotta give. We cannot afford for ANY of our young people to not be married and produce a new generation of klal Yisroel.
Looks are subjective, so I don’t think it’s a number 1,2, OR 3.
Some of the most UNATTRACTIVE people facially, are found to be attractive by someone else. And someone may still be attracted by someone, because of qualities other than looks.
Good character is #1. I don’t care if he’s the best learner in the world or makes the best parnassah. If he is a mean-spirited, disrespectful, inconsiderate, selfish lout, then he is worth zero as a potential shidduch. If she is totally self-centered, highly materialistic (some materialism is necessary in life, and to deny that is impractical), narcissistic, only concerned with yichus and money and how to exploit both, and not interested in lovingly raising the next generation of productive, menschlech frum Yidden, then she is worth zero as a potential shidduch.
#2 is has a good sense of humor – life throws a lot of curve balls at us, and our sense of humor enables us to get through some difficult times. Just ask Sholom Aleichem.
#3 what type of relationship does he or she have with his/her respective family? What are the parents like, and how do they treat each other? That is often indicative of how they will treat future spouses, because children grow up all too often, to be exactly like their parents, whether for good OR bad.
These three aspects are important to me. They were important when I met my future husband 38 years ago, and they are just as crucial today.
NU?
Bottom line, had Eric Garner been compliant, he probably would still be alive. Instead, he had attitude, and did not do what the officer told him. If you were stopped by a cop on the street, what would you do? I know I would be EXTREMELY respectful. He did not deserve to die for his crime, but he was certainly complicit in his own death. His actions were the proximate cause of the way in which he was handled by the police. Sad, and tragic for him and for his family, but still the result of his own initial response to the police.
I would not want to be a police officer for any amount of money.
G-d bless them for the good that they do, risking their lives to protect us. And if some of them are merely donut eaters and nothing more, I am fairly certain they are in the minority.
The only thing with which I agree with many people, is that I was a bit surprised the grand jury did not vote to indict the officer. This case was totally different from the one in Missouri, where the officer really had no choice. The officer in the Garner case could have been found not guilty in trial, but I think there should have been a trial.