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A priest, a rabbi and an imam walk into a bar. The bartender says ‘ Hey – what do you think this is, some kind of joke?’
oomis – matricide is killing ones own mother. You mean prolicide or filicide.
bombmaniac: I accept there is a difference between the disabled analogy and BTs.
I have not however assumed that that ‘there cannot be harmony etc.’. If you read my posts carefully you will see that I said only that there was an increased chance of marital disharmony. No inherent unavoidable problem ch’v- just a real POSSIBILITY that there can be a compatibility issues. Again – it’s COMPATIBILITY. That means not that neither the Bt nor the FFB is in any way inferior Heaven Forbid – just together they may not jell. (I have the greatest respect for BTs. If I were not fortunate enough myself to have been brought up in a frum family, I cannot put hand on heart and say I would have made the sacrifices and gone through the struggles Bts have gone through.)
So its not about STIGMA or INFERIORITY. Its about COMPATIBILITY. Just that the two histories, experiences and upbringings can bring out a discord later
bombmaniac: so are you saying that for the sake of equality people should go into a shidduch with someone with whom there is an increased chance of marital problems. Nobody has ‘barred’ baalei tshuva and those from broken homes. Again – nothing to do with stigmatizing. People just understandably go for a spouse that is most compatible. Are you saying they should sacrifice marital happiness on the altar of equality.
To put it starkly and I really hope I don’t offend anybody: We all try and integrate disabled people into mainstream life as best as possible. Would you accuse an able-bodied person who turns down a disabled shidduch as being stigmatizing, disgusting and feh to the system. I don’t think you would because you would recognise their would be a compatibility issue and marital harmony comes before any issues of non-discrimination.
bombmaniac – its your choice but I think you are letting your anger cloud your perception. Firstly to say nobody applies a stigma to kolel guys is patently wrong. Probably most frum families in NY wouldnt consider a kolel guy – they may just not be your circle.
Secondly, as I have tried explaining patiently, not doing a shidduch with a BT is usually NOT ABOUT STIGMA BUT ABOUT TRYING TO CREATE A HARMONIOUS RELATIONSHIP uncomplicated by strong differences in upbringing.
But hey – it’s up to you. If you prefer – don’t let up, stay angry at the system and make sure true facts don’t get in your way.
bombmaniac – I think you should be less judgemental about people’s attitudes towards shidduchim with BTs. It very often stems not from a condescending attitude or a NIMBY approach but from a genuine concern that a boy and girl coming from very different upbringings may experience problems in marriage. This can and (I happen to know) sadly does happen despite the fact that they ‘like’ each other when they meet. Real life issues when building a home depends on more than just the good feeling (read romance) they each experienced initially.
Minyan girl:’of the female persuasion’??????
Why don’t you just say ‘female’?
‘Of the female persuasion’ could mean a male who thinks like and has the political views generally held by females. Maybe that’s what you meant.
middlepath – ideally yes. But tznius involves not just values and guidelines. It also involves basic laws of what is and is not permitted. That is quite appropriate coming from an educator
Mamashtakah – I hope you weren’t writing that in a judgemental way. Yes it is sad but unfortunately it is very difficult for people who have lived all their life outside EY to make a life there that is viable in terms of chinuch and parnassah. I say this as someone who longs to live there but cannot see a way to do this practically.
Zahavasdad: Very Wrong, sadly many Jews were killed in England in the Middle Ages. There was the infamous massacre at York and in fact very recently (its still on the news if you Google it) they discovered Jewish remains down a well in Norwich. The forensics show that they’d been thrown in alive. Norwich was also the site of an infamous blood libel which caused massacres in other towns. Jews were also killed in London, Gloucester and Bristol. May Hashem avenge their blood.
Ctrl Alt Del. The answer is simply because they see no alternative place to move to. America? There are many reasons why they wouldn’t want to do that. Same for EY until Moshiach comes.
sof davar – thats what I meant
WIY – I hadnt thought of that!
So does anyone know what was the subject of only 2 neviim?
There’s a story of the Brisker Rav who ignored someone who shouted out ‘Tzedaka Tzedaka’ . When asked about this he quoted a posuk or maamar chazal that true anniyim display humility and therefore this person could not be a true ani
Oomis – I think the litmus test is would you discuss these issues in detail face to face with the opposite gender with whom you were not too familiar?
If you would be embarrassed to do so (and I personally believe that the main participants in a forum within ‘Yeshiva World’ should be) then that shows that the issue is too sensitive to be discussed openly in a way that does not very very subtly cause ‘hirhur’ (inappropriate thoughts).
If so then that is something that will be a problem (albeit to a lesser extent) even on an online forum.
CORRECTION TO PREVIOUS POST:
Oomis – would you be OK with males and females discussing Orach Chaim Siman 240 together – also Torah?
Rb – interesting, what’s the thread called?
I agree with RB. It is subtly untzniusdik for males and females to discuss TOGETHER details of the halachos of Tznius.
OOmis – how far would you take your view. Would you be OK with men and women discussing Orach Chaim Siman 220 together?
Couldnt agree more. I posted the same on a recent such thread but the mods didnt let it pass. The Yetzer Horah for Arayos is very sly and subtle.
Pacman, yes it may be hurtful to somebody single to quote in their face halachos which when rubbed in their face upset them. The fact that they are true halachos does not mean it is not insensitive to state them coldly to a single unless they are immediately relevant.
I also believe it is very insensitive and presumptuous of you to state that in the vast majority of cases it is a male single’s fault that he is single (and therefore I believe it IS comparable to a disabled Kohen or blind man) How on earth can you know that? Have you carried out a proper study to back that claim up? I think you and cherry-bim are treading on very thin ice here with your being very very maikil on hilchos bein odom lachavero.
Moshe, Aaron and Miriam all died in the same year. Then the Yiden entered EY.
Pac-Man and Cherry Bim. You may be right that there is a reason in Halacha why singles can’t daven etc. etc. There are numerous sources in Shas that back up your Hashkafa position about singles. That does not give anybody the right to transgress the very serious aveira of Onaas Devarim – hurting somebody’s feelings.
A disabled Kohen cannot perform the Avodah – would you taunt them for their disability?
A blind person according to one opinion is exempt from all the Mitzvos – would you criticise them for their blindness?
Not all singles can be blamed for their position and even the ones who can (and this can only be known by somebody who knows them exceptionally closely)- well there is a correct way of sensitively informing them of this without upsetting them. As the posuk says ‘Rebuke your friend but do not bear a sin through him’ (Sorry I have no Hebrew letters).
Gavra – no contradiction. The moral code to which you refer as being ‘overidden’ by the Torah can and does exist naturally in society but the point is that they cannot be described truly as ‘good’ or ‘bad’ as these terms have NO TRUE MEANING AT ALL unless there is a G-d given Law – the Torah – that provides the ultimate definition of right and wrong.
Without the Torah Chas V’Shalom, Human Society and its interactions, a moral code with its laws and behaviour is coldly reduced to the following:
1)A bunch of atoms grouped together in a certain way (the Human Form)
2)These atom bunches are capable of interacting within themselves in a particular way (Thought and Choice).
3)This often results in a further External interaction with other similar groups of atoms in various ways (e.g. providing them with “food” which prolongs the time they exhibit the property known as “Life” or, the opposite; e.g. putting a sharp knife in them thereby removing from them the property known as “Life”).
4)Many of these bunches of atoms have collectively over the years internally interacted resulting in something known as a “Decision” that some External interactions shall be named as ‘good’ and some ‘bad’ in accordance with the ‘Feeling’ (another property exhibited by these atoms) that these external interactions foster.
Re Eliyahu Hanavi – the Gemara in Sukah says that he did not rise higher than ten tefachim (cubits) in the physical realm. Surely that should put to rest any discussion about UFOs in that context.
Wolf, I would hazard a guess as follows: The Torah is the moral code of all society, the code that defines what is good and what is bad. Even for non-Jews, it defines what is good and bad. All moral judgements point one way or the other ONLY because the Torah says so.
Therefore, if you have a society that does not have any connection with the Torah as they are on another planet, then for them by definition the concepts of good and bad and moral judgements cannot exist. This is as opposed to all humankind on Earth for whom the Torah’s giving through Moshe at Sinai (on Earth) constituted the message from G-d of a definitive moral code – Jew (613 mitzvos) and non-Jew (7 mitzvos) each on their level.
To pre-empt an obvious question on what I have just written; surely there are some commandments in the Torah that are ‘Mitzvos Sichliyos’ i.e. commandments that could be arrived at by simply using an innate sense of right and wrong e.g. the prohibition of murder? The answer I think I once heard to this is that in truth even these type of commandments are in essence rooted in the Torah’s definitive moral code. Thinking that we would arrive at the commandment without the Torah’s existence is an illusion. (See Rabbi Keleman’s book Permission to Believe for more on this last point.)
Rav Koppelman zt’l, the Rosh Yeshiva of Lucerne in Switzerland a talmid of R’ Shimon Shkop
I posted earlier (for some reason it wasn’t allowed by the Mods) that a Rishon, Rabenu Kraskas in Sefer Or Hashem discusses life on other planets and as I recall says it is possible.
However, I have heard it said that it is impossible that intelligent beings capable of moral judgement inhabit other planets as this would cause difficulty with the principle of there being only 1 Torah.
Maybe I’m over-simplifying things but I think the main reason for the shidduch crisis is people being too fussy. We live at a time when all our consumer demands can be met to perfection or very close – we want the same for our spouses.
sorry – that should have read ‘THERE being only one Torah’
Pac man – a source?
I heard b’shem R’ Matisyahu Salomon Shlita that if someone is breaking the law and there is no viable alternative to calling the non-jewish authorities, there is no din Moser. This should be checked with LOr of course, but if you think about it – it makes sense and also the references to Moser in Shas etc. are all cases where the guy is innocent.
This always works: Leave time before Shemonah Esrei for 2 minutes to completely empty your head and medidate on the fact that you are literally standing in front of G-d to ask Him for your daily needs and those of the Klal.
Mod – Aishes Chayalos? I’m sure you meant to write N’shei Chayil.
Hey mods – as we’re chatting – perhaps you can give me a nice subtitle?
If I am not mistaken, I saw recently that R’ Chaim Kanievsky paskened that if somebody is davening what would be considered an unreasonably long Shemoneh Esrei, that you are M’ikar hadin allowed to walk in front of him/her even within 4 amos if necessary. When asked what is considered unreasonably long, he responded ‘anything more than the time required to be mechaven to the Pirush Hamilos.
Mod – no just remove your ‘equally’. It is nonsensical. My ‘very’ is at worst a little exaggerated.
equally? I dont think so. Maybe you meant also possible.
ItcheSrulik – It is very possible that Rav Scheinberg has mentioned that it is to be Yotze all shitos. His grandchildren may have just meant that has never told anyone why he took this stringent practice on himself.
I was referring to Chizkiyahu as Rashi explains there.
By the way since nobody seems to know, the answer to the riddle ‘Take away a letter from my new name and you have my king’s name’ is Daniel who was given the name Beltshazar by Nevuchadnezar and then subsequently became the minister for King Belshazar – Daniel’s own name minus the Tes.
Who is the ‘Prince of peace’?
Ctrl Alt Del:
This was mentioned b4 but not sufficiently emphasised in my opinion:
You are obligated to believe that he could come ON ANY DAY and you are obligated to hope that he comes.
These form one of the 13 principles of the Jewish faith as stated by Rambam. If you do not believe in and hope for Moshiach every day, whatever your feelings, – you place yourself outside the Jewish destiny as if you G-d forbid denied the Torah.
Remember -our forefathers in Egypt were idol worshippers on the penultimate level of impurity when they were whisked into redemption.
AYC – the only subject of ONLY two nevi’im.
not shalom bayis davka – just shalom.
Another example is in the gemara betzah daf 20 – Hillel Hazaken lied about the korban he was bringing to avoid a confrontation with Shamai’s students.
nice try blinky.
but then the riddle would have read:
Take away one letter from my name and you have my king (not my king’s name)
So keep trying…
I was the only subject of the nevuah of two nevi’im.
What am I?
correct on both AYC.
You still need to crack one more – Take away one letter from my new name and you have my king’s name.
Rooty Hill (Australia)
Make every effort to be compensated as is your right. But if after doing so you fail, please do not bear a grudge against the parents or couple and try and find it in your heart to be Mochel the hurt they have caused. You would not want anything to befall them on your account.
Sender Av:
a) Never ever ever give up or lose hope however many times you sin, Hashem is our father. I’m not sure if you are a parent who knows what unconditional love feels like, but Hashem has that in an infinite form.
b) Losing the sensitivity to an aveira after commiting it many times is human nature and is noted in Chazal (gemara Kiddushin: end of Perek 1). It does not nullify true tshuva.
c) Your tshuva is sincere as long as you honestly and deeply commit to mending your ways. No 2 ways about it. You are either committed or not. If you slip up after the commitment – that does happen but it should really be a complete surprise to even yourself if your commitment was honest. If you sort of saw that coming even while doing tshuva, it can’t be that sincere.
You are simply allowed to lie ‘mipnei hashalom’ – if a more peaceful outcome will result.
There are many examples in the Torah and Shas. One is when Hashem said to Soroh that Avraham had exclaimed that HE was too old to have children when in fact he had said that Soroh was too old.
So nobody knows who the ‘upside-down horn’ is?