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tznius alert
toi: maybe it was a way of disguising his identity especially as he has given one aspect of it away i.e. overweight. Anyway what do you have against the English? I think they’re great!
Which contemporary Israeli town is mentioned in Tanach as a town outside of Eretz Yisrael?
Zeeskite: Of course that’s why I wrote ‘e.g.’
Zeeskite: By your logic there is no musag of it in essence at all as there is no such verb in Lashon Hakodesh which is the essence of all that exists.
By your logic too the musag of NOT farginnen – jealousy – only exists by Yidden ch’v. That is obviously untrue.
How do you know only Yidden do it anyway? Goyim may not have a specific verb for it but they can still express it e.g. ‘Hey Chris, I’m so happy for you that your business got off to the right start.’
If we want to be smug about our superiority over the Umos HaOlam let’s at least stick to those things that Chazal tell us we excel at e.g. Rachmonim, Bayshonim, Gomlei Chasodim instead of making up things based on a verb in Yiddish corrupted from German circa 1000 years ago.
I personally don’t think they’re wrong and the kabbalah while well-meant ignores the real issue of Sinas Chinam. These terms accurately describe different segments of Jews whose approach to Avodas Hashem is internally and visibly different. Such distinctions have been made in Tanach, Chazal and throughout our history. Sinas Chinam is to do with hatred not descriptions.
And anyway, if it’s wrong to use these words then never use them.
Tzippi: I’m not sure what your point is. We are discussing whether the verb ‘fargin’ is unique to Yiddish and if so, if that’s because only Yidden fargin.
I personally think neither is true.
Ayin Tovah is something which is likely considered praiseworthy by non-Jews too.
Haleivi: Yiddish is mostly derived from German. It makes sense therefore that ‘fargin’ does too in some way. Are you an expert in Old German to be able to refute this?
Shlishi: So what – the point still is that no such word exists in Hebrew/ Loshon Hakodesh.
Zeeskite: Seriously? Only Yidden fargin?
Anyway according to that logic there should be a Hebrew word for it rather than Yiddish which is derived from German (not exactly known for being farginners)
That is interesting. How does a story about his genius rather than his mesirus nefesh inspire you? Does it inspire you to become a genius with an amazing memory? I’m not being facetious – I just want to understand.
Fair point Mod-80 but my objection still stands whether the genius is natural or a zchus of some sort. The point remains that if you do not have the same genius, then the story does nothing for you as an inspiration.
Rogachovers Assistant:
I’ve heard that R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky Zt’l was against biographies of Gedolim that emphasise their natural genius rather than their hard work at Torah and Avodas Hashem. It just causes kids to give up from the start when they hear about a Godol who knew the entire Tanach when he was 7, knew Shas before his Bar-Mitzvah and was paskening Shaalos at age 18.
The Rogachover was an unbelievable masmid who learnt Torah every waking moment (except when forbidden) and hardly slept. One cannot in mere words do justice to the Hasmadah (diligence) of the Rogachover. Stories about his Hasmadah inspire us to work at our own Hasmadah.
But your story about his natural genius and phenomenal memory ,while fascinating, in reality does nothing to inspire Avodas Hashem any more than the guy in Japan who has memorised ‘pi’ to 100,000 decimal places.
If a mistake in grammar or punctuation becomes common enough then surely it has just naturally become part of the language. Languages evolve; they are not set in stone. Go and read some English literature written a few hundred years ago and it is totally different. Nobody made an official declaration about what can and cannot be done – it just happened on its own.
I think the mistaken use of the apostrophe with the plural ‘s’ and with the word ‘its’ (possessive) fits this category
I think it depends on the intent and also the type of chumros. If after taking a long hard look inside yourself it is still out of genuine love or awe of Hashem in the same way that one would l’havdil go the extra mile for one’s father or a beloved ruler then it must be Ok.
But if it’s a case of trying to jump to a spiritual level that you’re not truly yet on like running before you can walk or to try and earn accolades from onlookers then unless it is an accepted custom to keep this chumra then maybe it’s better to steer clear. Some chumros are specifically designated by Chazal as ‘Mechzei K’Yuharo’ i.e. appearing haughty.
Best to ask a Rabbi anyway.
Wolf:
“On the broader argument which you mention, however, I still maintain my point… that a statement made in contravention to an open gemara* is not necessarily apikorsus. Stating that 2+2=7 is not apikorsus (despite the fact that it goes against an open gemara). It’s just plain wrong, period. Being incorrect != stating apikorsus.”
I never said disagreeing with a Gemara constitutes apikorsus. I don’t believe the OP did either. We both are simply referring to the Gemara in Sanhedrin as per above post that calls somebody that says ‘ Mai Ahanu lan Rabanan’ an Apikorus.
“In addition, I find your attitude disturbing. Your advocating the complete abandomnent of mitzvos for someone who disagrees with an open gemara (whether they are an apikorus or not) is simply wrong.
Obviously I would not advocate that anybody abandons Torah and Mitzvos. My sentiments were just a stark way of stating that as believing orthodox Jews you cannot pick and choose which Chazal you agree with and which you don’t like the Reform and Conservative do.
“Please cite me where an apikorus is no longer obligated to do mitzvos (that you so casually tell him not to do so anymore)”
Ok, here are 2 similar examples of this way of stating things in Tanach:
1) Yehoshua Perek 24 – the words of Yehoshua – ‘ And if you do not see fit to serve Hashem, choose for yourselves today who you will serve, either Hashem that your fathers over the river served, or the gods of the Emori in whose land you are dwelling, while I and my household will serve Hashem’
2)Melachim 1 Perek 18 – the words of Eliyahu – ‘ How long will you jump between 2 opinions? If Hashem is the G-d follow Him and if the Baal, follow him.’
Wolf:
“The Gemara there clearly talks about Rabannan. It does not talk about regular people who are sitting and learning. It talks about a case where someone questions “Mai Ahanu Li Rabbanan.” It does not talk about someone who says “Mai Ahanu Li HaLomdai Torah.”
No on the contrary. Rabanan there clearly refers to regular people sitting and learning. For the avoidance of doubt I will quote the Gemara and Rashi there and I believe it is then self-evident.
‘Who is an Apikorus? Said Rav Yosef, those that say ‘What use are Rabanan to us – they read (Scripture) for themselves, they learn for themselves’ Says Rashi: ‘And they don’t realise that the world remains in place due to them’
Clearly this doesn’t refer to Rabbonim, Roshei Yeshiva and other disseminators of Torah who obviously and directly are benefiting others otherwise these people aren’t Apikorsim – they are simply blind or stupid and Rashi’s comment that the world remains in place due to the Rabanan (and the Gemara following this with a quote from Abaye) is a little puzzling and superfluous. The Gemara and Rashi’s comment indicate unequivocally that the reference is to someone just sitting and learning.
Sorry Perek 11 daf 99b towards the end of the page
Toi: The most ignored law’s what? Finish the title.
Because on a superficial level Iyun separates those that ‘can learn’ over those that can’t. So everyone including the RYs themselves want to excel at this particular aspect of learning. Imagine a Yeshiva that excels in Bekius rather than Iyun. It would simply have a name for catering for less gifted students that can’t handle deep stuff like R’ Boruch Ber or R’ Shimon.
Like I said in my previous post, if you have a good head you can excel in Iyun pretty quickly with not much effort. However to become proficient in Shas takes long and tedious hard work. And our generation is not geared up for that. The accolades don’t come quick enough. That’s my humble opinion.
I seriously don’t understand the argument here. It’s an open Gemora in Sanhedrin Perek 12 that anyone can look up that somebody who says that people who just sit and learn don’t contribute to the klal are apikorsim. Not just mistaken, not just a little skewed or left-wing in hashkofa but the big A word. Apikorus. No chelek in Olom haba. And nobody argues on that shito. Too extreme? Don’t like it? Don’t agree with the Gemara? Then don’t light Shabos candles and don’t put strange black straps on your arms and head daily. Then find another branch of Judaism that discards the words of the Chazal like Reform or Conservative.
The answer is surely that the Yeshivishe crowd wear yarmulkas big enough to generally stay put whereas the less Yeshivish have smaller yarmulkas that would fly off in the wind or any sudden movement.
Wolf: From its context, the Gemara of ‘Mai Ahanu Lan Rabanan’ is not referring to Rabbonim, Roshei Yeshiva etc. that disseminate Torah. It is referring to men that just sit and learn Torah like Kollel men nowadays who then do not necessarily go on to take up any position. That is why the Apikorus says ‘They are learning only for themselves’ and that is the Apikorsus referred to by the OP.
mw13:
“So that we won’t automatically dismiss anything the goyim come up (especially regarding practical sciences such as physics, biology, chemistry, etc).”
My point precisely – we shouldn’t dismiss what the Goyim come up with and we should make practical use of it. That’s what the ‘Taamin’ implies.
“I’m not sure exactly what you mean by that, but you seem to be misreading my diyuk. What I was trying to point out is that the reason the Taana phrased the Mishna “if somebody tells you that there is chochma by the goyim, believe them” instead of just saying “there is chochma by the goyim” is because the only way one should be hearing about the goyim’s chochma is from somebody else; he should not be looking into it himself.”
Your diyuk is a chidush – maybe a nice shtickle Torah but not the simple Pshat. If that was the main point of the Chazal they would have said it straight ‘Don’t learn directly from Goyim’ As it is the poshut pshat in the chazal is that we should believe in the Chochma of Goyim. That we should then make use of it to further Avodas Hashem is then obvious.
Anyway how do you define looking into it himself? If you hear it from somebody else like a teacher, that is the natural way of learning and how else would you look into it yourself? Reading a book written by a Goy? That’s essentially the same thing.
“Actually, I heard a very interesting speech which explained that the Rambam learnt medicine to become the top doctor in Eypgt in order to gain political power, which he used to preserve Torah-true Judaism that was under attack by reform movements.”
Again my point – using Chochmas Hagoyim to further Yiddishkeit.
“Also, the Chovos Halevavos and the Rambam had to go through goyish philosophy in order to disprove any parts that were against Jewish philosophy.”
True but they also quote it for its own sake to bring out Chochmas Hagoyim that can in certain instances make us understand our own Hashkafah.
mw13: Why do Chazal tell us to believe it? Who cares? For what purpose? If not that we should make use of it for the correct purposes (not study for its own sake but to further our own Avodas Hashem).
The implication that you derive i.e. believe it but only second-hand and not first-hand even if true is not the main point of the Maamar Chazal.
And anyway it’s not true at all. How exactly do you learn Chochma ‘second-hand’? Are you telling me the Rambam learnt his medical knowledge second-hand with no non-Jewish sources? How then? A series of lectures through a bas-kol? And Chovos Halevovos and other seforim quote extensively from non-Jewish sources. The Rambam also praised the Chochma of Aristotle.
The poshut pshat in this maamar is ‘believe it’, i.e. don’t dismiss it, don’t say Goyim know nothing – they do. Therefore obviously we should make use of it for the right purposes.
As things stand, we have most bochurim and yungerleit with good heads coming out of mainstream Yeshivos in EY and America having learned for 10, 15, 20 years and sometimes longer not being able to recall much more than where certain sugyas and memras come up in a few limited mesechtas. Shakla Vetarya? Forget it. Maskonas hasugyas? Unimportant. What counts? Er ken gut lernen. Er farshteit gut dem shtickle Ktzos.
The Birchas Avrohom (R’ Avrohom Erlanger a magid shiur in Kol Torah) has a sefer (sorry forgotten the name) in which he ‘haks’ tremendously against Magidei Shiur who instead of imparting to their students the ability to learn a daf Gemora Rashi Tosfos K’Pshuto, review and retain it, they are busy farkoifing to the young minds their Shticklech in Rambam.
He also writes that nowadays we have come to the ridiculous stage where if a bochur has some yedios in Shas he is considered having a weak head because he doesnt sit and kvetch all day on one sugya (to come up with Krum Boich Svoras that Rashi 3 dafim later explicitly discounts but which by the time they get to this Rashi (if they ever do – that is) they will have long forgotten as they are in the throes of kvetching out a new Shtickle Torah- my addition – from experience with chavrusos with this attitude)
Middlepath – perhaps not. Perhaps the best way to learn is the way in which you ACHIEVE the most even if it’s not as enjoyable (to begin with). Im B’Chukosai Telechu – Shetihyu Amelim Batorah. This surely means we have to exert ourselves and not just try and enjoy the ride. Of course it’s important to enjoy learning but we also need to focus on the goal. Lo Alecha Ham’locha Ligmor V’lo Ata Ben Chorin L’hibotel Haimena.
Realbrisker – Moed Katan 28a the story with Rav Ashi where he told the Malach Hamaves he needs 30 days more to review all his Torah – Ashrei Mi Shebo L’kan v’Talmudo B’yodo.
Not V’Shticklech Torah B’yodo. We have a chiyuv to (at least attempt to) learn Kol Hatorah Kuloh.
There’s a great sefer called Kerem Yehoshua written by a Rav Yehoshua Cohen Shlita on Derech Halimud – where he writes in his introduction that Choshuve Rabbanim and Magidei Shiur have called him literally crying that they feel they are living a lie as they are respected as Talmidei Chachamim when they in fact know so little as all they learned all their lives is HOW to learn and give good shiurim but with no real Kinyan in Torah Knowledge.
After 120 years we will be farhered on the Torah we KNOW. Not on how clever a Shtickle Torah we can give (even assuming that it’s not contradicted by an open Mishna that some ‘lamdanim’ will never even glance at), not on how ‘tief’ we can understand a Reb Baruch Ber, but on what we actually know – the Torah knowledge we have amassed. In halacha the definition of a talmid chacham (regarding issues like being exempt from paying municipal taxes) is someone who has bekius in MOST OF SHAS – that means knowing it thoroughly, not that you once gave a knak chaburo on it.
As you say, the Gedolim are against this, it doesn’t result in Talmidei Chachomim, all it results in is men who ‘know how to learn’ but have very limited areas of knowledge in Torah that they can apply their skills to which they forget quickly as Chazorah and bekius is completely negated.
Why is this so? I think because it’s harder and more tedious work to learn and review over and over and over again in order to gain real bekius (as was common in Litvish yeshivos pre-war; they reviewed sugyas over 40 times usually). It takes too long and isn’t so quickly appreciated by peers. On the other hand, a sharp head capable of a deep svorah is more readily admired and doesn’t take much effort on the part of gifted learners. Our instant gratification generation prefers this.
Who said they can’t?
The implication is that we should use it otherwise Chazal should simply have said ‘There is Chochma by the Goyim’.
mitzius and an implication to make use of it
I’m a little skeptical – is there a source in Tanach, Chazal or possibly in Kabalah, that there is any basis whatsoever to attach importance to these types of occurences?
yacr85 – have you a source that abortion should only be carried out by a Yid? If it’s permitted, it’s permitted. The severity of the aveirah doesnt depend on who is doing it The only difference is the punishment when its NOT permitted .I’d have thought abortion is only muttar when the mother’s life is at risk in which case anyone should be able to carry it out?
lesschumras – no obviously we can and should use their wisdom where it improves our ability to serve G-d. But not to learn the chochma for its own sake as a pure academic study.
deiyezooger – but then your question should be why ties aren’t worn all week as if standing before a king
It’s crass, insensitive and cheapens the whole tragedy. It’s got nothing to do with who gets the proceeds. Tragedies deserve respectful mourning and dignified solidarity not in-your-face commercialisation.
I believe in the name of Chazon Ish: Chareidim have 613 mitzvos, MO 613 problems.
Say nothing, create no Machlokes and reap the reward.
ItcheSrulik – Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said ‘never ever’. I only said what Gemora it reminded me of and the implication is clear – that you shouldn’t use CRUDE and DISRESPECTFUL chol metaphors for Kodesh. Not sure I believe your Charedi and MO Rebeim disagree with a mefurashe Gemora
Yitayningwut: Your analogy reminds me of Gemara about a Cohen who compared the size of his portion of Lechem Haponim to a lizard prompting Chazal to investigate his Yichus and to discover that he was not a Kosher Cohen.
‘Tradition’ only answers why we have to adhere to it. The OP’s question was effectively why such a tradition is in place.
The Wolf: All languages including Hebrew and certainly Yiddish, evolve. There are numerous examples of this in Shas with nobody as I recall insisting that the incumbent terms are sacrosanct. If it has become common practice to refer to all frum men as Reb, then that has become part of the language. Of course you have the right to insist on not being called Reb, but you may as well insist on not being called Mr and demand on being called Colonel – but that will not change the reality that it is not a reflection of the true state of the language in your era and circles.
coffeaddict – it’s telling the Mormon missionaries from Utah to go back there
showerzinger – the annointed one of Hashem would be Mishiach Hashem not Moshiach Hashem as per the original post.
Mr Guberfield: The outline of arms is not as problematic from a tznius point of view as the legs. As for the upper part, if the outline is not hidden sufficiently then this is indeed a tznius issue. As it stands, plenty of ladies top garments do hide the outline.
It’s to do with what is liable to attract undue attention and cause improper thoughts rather than logic.
I think Oomis raises a good question regarding culottes, I can only surmise that the issue there is one of a slippery slope leading to less and less culotte type pants.
Mod-80 go easy, Mr Guberfield is surely allowed to raise a valid logical point as long as ultimately he defers to whatever is paskened and he has not given any indication that he wouldn’t. He was just trying to understand. If you feel I am wrong to defend him, please post back.
On MBD’s English Collection the song ‘Prince of Peace’ refers to the ‘son of David come to overturn our sin’ – a concept borrowed no doubt from our Christian neighbours.
It has nothing to do with Chasidim. Skirts hide the outline as opposed to pants which accentuate it making them very untzniusdik.
Anonymrs – yes I thought so too till I learned it and looked at Rashi.
Here are some other issues with popular songs:
Avraham Fried’s ‘Ish es reayhu yaazoiru ulochiv yomar chazak’ is from Yeshaya – a reference to Goyim exhorting each other to rebel against Hashem.
Carlebach and other’s ‘ Hinei yomim boim neum Hashem v’hishlachti ro’ov bo’oretz lo ro’ov lalechem v’lo tsomo lamayim ki im lishmoa divrei Hashem’. This was one of the severest and harshest nevuas that there will be nobody who will be able to teach Torah (see meforshim there)
coffee addict: By the Chasidim it’s an inyan davka to make a siyum in the 9 days with meat.