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Unless anyone else has a better quote, the closest I can think of is from psukei d’zimrah, ?????? ???? ?’ ????????? ?? [??????] ???????? ??? ??????????? ?????? ??????????? ????? ??????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????????? ????? ?????? ??????
Maybe this refers to Earth the Planet.
In any case, Parshas Breishis does not state clearly in any way how Hashem created the world. A few paragraphs is hardly a technical manual for quite a complex project.
It’s all true, no reason to be skeptical. This one is relatively benign, in 2004 it was a big deal.
Dear luv2Bjewish,
Many of us here empathize with your discomfort with all the rules and restrictions. But as The Wolfman intimated above, if you buy into the system, you can’t really complain about the rules.
There are other legitimate systems out there, and don’t let anyone make you feel bad about them. If the yeshivish-shidduch system isn’t to your liking, try a different one. B’hatzlachah.
Yitayningwut started his post with these words:
“I am going to state as simply as I can what I think is the most reasonable understanding of tznius.”
I would like to commend him on a well considered , very eloquent and quite correct presentation of the tznius issue.
Dear superme:
Sorry to say, your teacher has been giving you inaccurate information. The penalty for intentionally eating chometz (I don’t need to get into the exact amount now) on Pesach is Kares. Not misah.
I suggest that you check things out by yourself instead of misleading others with second-hand inaccuracies. You can start by reading the psukim in the Chumash, it is rather explicit there.
There are people who participate in these discussions who have serious and wide knowledge of Torah and halachah. Blatant inaccuracies are not well received by them, nor should they be. Please be careful.It’s not a crime not to know something. If you don’t really know, don’t write as if you do.
Dear superme;
I have three suggestions:
1. Learn to write and spell properly.
2. Proofread your post before sending it out.
3. Do not provide us with incorrect halachic information.If you are unsure of what I have in mind, please go over your high school notes regarding eating chometz on Pesach.
It is permitted for Ashkenazim and Sefardim to eat quinoa on Pesach. Be careful that there are no other grains mixed in with it. It should have a Pesach hashgacha.
Someone mentioned here that Canola oil is not permitted for Ashkenazim.
I disagree, it is permitted for Ashkenazim.
I disagree with the fear of hefsek after the chupah. In my opinion, the “relevant poskim who deem it necessary” are incorrect. It is highly recommended for a choson and kallah to hold hands after the chupah. But a requirement to avoid hefsek? No.
It is permissible and even recommended for husbands and wives to hold hands in the street.
Dear Benignuman and Rabbeinu Sam,
I was heavily edited as you see, I’ll change it up a bit. I disagree that the concept of hefsek applies between the chupah and yichud. Too many kushyot can be asked and inadequately answered.
As an example, I always wonder on Purim morning when the gabbai announces to keep mitzvos hayom in mind when the ba’al koreh makes the Shehecheyanu on the Megilah. Isn’t this going to be a colossal hefsek? My answer: no, there is no hefsek. Apply to many other situations.
Dear Benignuman and Rabbeinu Sam,
Thank you for your responses. All of these lumdishe machlokot are well known, whether our chupah is nisuin or not, etc… I always try to encourage the chosson to meet the kallah halfway down the aisle,take her hand, and lead her to the chupah. Most chasanim look at me like I am crazy. Of course, this lovely but rarely enacted minhag is an offshoot of the Chupas Main done in Germany.
After the chupah,I definitely encourage the choson to take his bride’s hand, they are married after all.(I think it’s wonderful to see husbands and their wives hold hands in public also,as I and my wife do, but that’s another issue)
I’ll mention that many sefardim do not have yichud at the wedding (shitat HaRan and others, as you mentioned)
heavily edited
.”…I have heard that the reason for holding hands after the chuppa is to be mamshech the kinyan from Chupa to the Yichud room. “
“… a couple should hold hands from chupah to yichud room to minimize the hefsek.”
The first quote here noted that he does not know of a source. The second quote was from the “many have heard” variety.
I would like to be enlightened as to what halachic hemshech or hefsek we are concerned with, and how exactly does holding hands alleviate this problem. Whoever answers, please make it credible and documented. If not, I and many others have more than a few kushyot to ask.
I fully support Haifagirl. If a poster cannot spell simple words or distinguish between homonyms, the message becomes unintelligible. If someone wants to be understood, he or she needs to write intelligibly. Hopefully, correcting poor English will result in writing with more consideration for the reader. Isn’t that why people write? So others can read? So write carefully.
“She “adjusted” me one time, and it made me feel more pain verses when I was younger”
I, and probably Haifagirl, also experience pain with these verses.
Dear bp27,
I try to be intellectually honest and to tell it the way I see it. I am old enough to have lost the fear of what people will think of my ideas. So, if a compliment is deserved,it is served. Naturally, I am limited by the rules as to what I can express.
As far as Rabeinu Tam goes, I simply cannot accept the traditional interpretation of his Bein hashmashot. I am relieved that although Rabeinu Tam’s shittah is scientifically incorrect, the new understanding of his position is intuitively attractive and makes perfect sense. His innovation that the zmanim can be independent of the position of the sun but rather be dependent on how much light there is , is wonderful and brilliant. I am sorry that large sections of pious Jews still think that it can be dark but halachically day. As I said before, no bizui chachomim is ever intended,they knew science as it existed then. And almost by definition, halachah is what we do, not what science says.
bp27 has described the calendar and its quirks more accurately than I did. To twisted, yes, here in Eretz Yisrael Pesach is still very much in the Spring. But it is moving, ever so slowly. It will take a very long time , and you don’t have to worry.
Oh, it is a very legitimate minhag. As you no doubt know, ?? ????? ???? ???? .
It is thoroughly documented, including pictures, in Rav Binyomin Shlomo Hamburger’s well known “Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz”, Vol. 4. I’m surprised you’re not familiar with it. Nothing like doing a little homework before casting doubts..
The old yekke minhag is for the chosson and kallah to walk arm-in-arm to the shul on the morning of the wedding, when the kiddushin is perfomed in the afternoon or evening. It’s called Chupas Mein. Just like a husband and wife holding hands in public, there is nothing untznius about it. Minhag Yisrael kadosh.
Dear Rsoz,
I am sorry that you have had to learn the age-old maxim: Ba’al Hame’ah hu ba’al hade’ah. No one in my generation is surprised by this policy.
Rab Doniel,
Minor point.
…procedures performed on the cow’s stomach renders the milk treif…
My understanding was that the cow is rendered treif, not the milk per se. The milk inside the cow is then treif because the cow is treif.
Midwesterner is correct, although it should be noted that there is a small error even after 247 years and it is more accurate to say that the calendar does not really repeat itself ever.
I am not an expert by any means on this topic,but a quick check will show that ever so slowly, Pesach is moving towards the Summer and leaving Spring behind.
It is well known that Tal U’matar in Chutz La’aretz moves a day later every hundred years or so, and eventually will disappear.
There has been much controversy lately about the Luach in the back of the Tur. It is not clear that the Tur prepared it, as there is a mistake in it. The assumption is that the Tur would not have made this mistake. More likely is that at a later date, it was copied by someone else who made this mistake.
All comments about Moshiach arriving before the calendar falls apart will be well intentioned but ignore the facts and miss the point.
Oomis, the 19 year year English-Hebrew birthday thing is cute and works for the short span of our lives for most people , but not for everyone.
Another point, for Rabbeinu Sam. I also don’t know why these are not sha’ot zmaniyot. I’m sure you are familiar with the Chasam Sofer’s long tshuva explaining when we use 60 minute hours and when we use sha’ot zmaniyot. I don’t remember off hand what he says about this, but it definitely makes sense that it’s zmaniyot. However,at least in Israel, the difference is almost negligible regarding tzet hacochavim and ben hashmashot.
Furthermore, as you may have hinted, who says a mil is 18 minutes? maybe it’s 20,or 22? Then, 4 mil becomes 88 minutes. 88 minutes after sunset in Tzfat? As night as night can be. Not day.
I am used to being called a mezalzel b’chvod chachomim, and I can handle that. But this time, I in no way was referring to the Mechaber, nor do I think his position is ridiculous or logically untenable.
My understanding of the Mechaber is totally different.The mechaber states, ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????
Those are the words. Whereas you are interpreting shkias hachamah to mean sunset, I do not. I already showed how Rabbeinu Tam postulated two different shkiot hachamah, when neither of them referred to sunset.
Furthermore, if the Mechaber understood like you, all he had to say was , ???? ????? ????? and we would all yell, Of course! Sunset!. But no, he talks about a hatchalah. What hatchalah? The sun sets and it’s gone! Beginning and end within a minute or two! Second, why the explanation ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ? Any child can see that after the sun sets it is no longer seen on the land!
The answer is that the Mechaber is not talking about the sun setting, but rather the point in time, way before the sun sets, where it’s light does not shine brightly on the earth ??? ???? ???? ?? ????, where it’s effectiveness is very muted, but before it sets. This is hatchalat hashkiah, and is exactly the way I (not me, but the sources I mentioned) explained Rabbeinu Tam. This period is 3.25 mil and is still vadai yom. Bein hashmashot is after this period, some time after the sun sets, and is only 0.75 mil. How are these periods related to sunset? They are not related. Bein hashmashot is simply 0.75 mil before three stars. Tchilat shkiah is 4 mil before three stars. The Mechaber holds like Rabbeinu Tam, but not the Satmar version. That is pshat, and it answers all problems, at least according to Rabbeinu Tam.
Again, according to this line of reasoning, Rabbenu Tam’s tzet is three stars, just like everyone else. I reiterate, calling darkness vadai yom is ridiculous and logically untenable. Neither Rabbeinu Tam nor the Mechaber hold that darkness is day.
To Sam the Scholar and Anav, I hope this explanation helped to understand the Mechaber and Rabbeinu Tam.
Oh yes, the opinion I presented is far fom universal, it is still a minority opinion, but I feel it may eventually be accepted in lumdus theory. I have no doubt that the Satmar and others will not give this interpretation the time of day (no pun intended), however strong the argument may be.
The flaw in waiting 72 minutes from what we see as sunset is that there is agreement in all gemara sugyot that bein hashmashot ends at three medium sized stars. At that point, it is night, period. Throughout the year, 72 minutes post sunset is approximately 30 minutes past three-star appearance time. As is plain as one can see, 72 minutes after sunset, especially in the Middle East, is as dark as dark can be, and cannot possibly represent the end of bein hashmashot. Without saying this time-table is ridiculous, it certainly is logically untenable.
A close look at Rabbeinu Tam’s own words (not just quotes in his name in Tosfos and other Rishonim and Achronim) clearly shows that his two-shkiah solution, besides being a stroke of innovative genius, refers to the sun entering the thick corridor (rakia) and still being seen (first shkiah),until there is no light left , significantly after the sun is no longer seen (second shkiah). The end point, though, is three stars and no later. Astronomical/Visible sunset occurs without halachic consequences.
That said, any further explanations on my part would not do justice to the painstakingly thorough treatment the two illustrious rabbonim I sourced above independently gave to this subject. I will allow their published works to convince you. Or not, hakol l’shem shamayim.
Sorry, the correct nusach is “kol hashoneh halachos”. Even so, the meaning is the same, and certainly there was no intent to slight the great posek Rav Klein.
Meshaneh Halachos as in “v’shinantam” or Kol hameshaneh (study) halachos b’chol yom muvtach lo…, not as in changing halachos. I believe that is the intended name of the sefer.Mishneh halchos is incorrect grammar and I do not think that is the corect name of the sefer.
Dear bp27,
Thanks for asking. Indeed, your understanding is the prevalent one, however, it seems to be incorrect.
Sources:
1.Sefer Hayashar, siman 221
2. Book by Rav Zinni of Haifa, Shitat Rabbeinu Tam b”ven Hasmashot
3. Hama’ayan, Vol. 200, presentation by Rav Yaakov Levinger
A synopsis: According to all, tzet hakochavim follows ben hashmashot, and is defined by three medium-sized stars.
The issue is to resolve the two lengths of bein hashmashot, one 3/4 mil, the other 4 mil. Rabbeinu Tam resolves this contradiction by postulating a thick window or tunnel which the sun goes through. The first window is when the light of the day starts dimming (way before sunset).The second is when the sun exits the end of the window or passageway. This is tzet hacochavim, no light is left. What we call sunset is somwhere in between, but neither the entrance into the tunnel, nor the exit from it.
The upshot is essentially twofold:
1. All times are counted backwards from when the stars appear, which is the ony universally agreed upon ( agreed upon by all the sugyot in the gemara) event.
2. What counts is not the position of the sun, but rather the amount of light still experienced on Earth. This amount of light is influenced by the setting of the sun, but there is a diminishing of light even before sunset, and still a considerable amount of light after the sun sets. It is this gradual change of lighting that Rabeinu Tam considers.
I know this is different than what is practiced and taught. Please read at least the Sefer Hayashar and one of the other sources (they both quote the sefer hayashar anyway). It will explain everything, including those Rishonim who understood Rabeinu Tam correctly, and those Achronim who did not.
In response:
1. The concept of shaved heads for women does not appear in the book on Va’ad Ha’aratzot. There is only one authoratative copy, and it is not in there. If anyone, posek or not, thinks it stems from there, show it to me.
2. The concept of shaved heads does not appear in the Tzava’a of the Chasam Sofer. First of all, it is an instruction booklet to his own family and was obviously not written for public consumption. Second, quite the contrary. He assurs leaving hair uncovered (if shaved, what hair?)and also assurs pe’ah nochris (yes, sheitels). Third, in his teshuva YD 195, which no one mentioned here,he does not imply that all hair is removed , rather that long hair is cut. Reb Moshe’s tshuva relates to the Chasam Sofer’s reasoning, and effectively eliminates the totally shaved hair idea from chatzitzah, otherwise all body hair would need to be removed totally.
3. The Meshaneh Halachos labors unsuccessfully to find a source, but does not find an explicit one. He cannot find it in the Sefer Arba Ha’aratzot (no surprise, it isn’t there) and so he refers us to the Zohar with no proof whatsoever that any established group followed this unproven interpretation of the Zohar. The proof from the Tashbetz is clearly wishful thinking, the Tashbetz refers to cut pe’ot and not to shaved heads.
4. I grant that it is possible that this minhag is not purely chassidic, considering that the Me’ah She’arim Toldos Aharon practice this and they are not mainstream chassidim. Same for Rav Menashe Klein’s constituency. Apologies for the use of the term “purely” chassidic. But to claim that it was accepted for many hundreds of years from the times of the Rishonim? No way.
5. I maintain that attributing this minhag to mainstream Ashkenazic Jewry via the Va’ad Arba Aratzot is manipulative because it automatically puts the burden of proof on those who don’t practice it. See above post where a misguided bas yisroel is being convinced that it’s a “way higher level”. That thinking is motzi la’az on n’shos yisroel l’doros. Shumu shamayim.
6. To hypothesize a source, or to suggest a possible interpretation for a source is legitimate and is done all the time for minhagim. But to claim a written source where none exists, as claimed in posts “quoting” the Va’ad Arba Ha’aratzot or the Tzava’ah of the Chasam Sofer, that is indeed absolutely false.
7. I in no way denigrate or criticize the minhag of women shaving their heads. To each group his own minhagim. However, I do not accept false claims.
For the benefit of the doubt, I reviewed the book “Pinkas Va’ad Arba Ha’aratzot” for the years 1660-1680. According to a post above, Rabbi Meisel’s book (which I never saw) mentioned that takanah regarding shaving heads was decreed in 1670. This takanah is nowhere to be found in those years. Just for the record, the takanot in those years were about much more serious issues, whether they were kidnappings and murders, Shabtai Zvi, or blood libels .
I maintain that this alleged takanah “lo hayah v’lo nivra”. Lahada”m. It has not been mentioned in any Eastern European posek in the hundreds of years of the ‘Arba Ha’aratzot’. Remember that these takanot were decreed by the Gedolei Olam who “m’pihem anu chayim”, the Taz, Be’er Hagolah, Chelkas M’chokek, to mention just a few. And not a word about shaved heads in the seforim.
Attributing this purely chassidish custom to gedolei Ashkenaz is tantamount to demanding why the vast majority of Ashkenazim do not adhere to it. Ths is manipulative minhagic coercion, aside from it being false.
Furthermore, it raises serious doubts regarding the reliablity in general of such proclamations lacking in proper footnotes and references, regardless of the popularity of the specific book. If a bombastic claim such as the above is made, it better be verifiable. Maybe the average BY girl or Mesivta boy will buy into it, but it doesn’t work on me. Show me the proof.
If someone brings me a verifiable source, I will retract everything I have written here.
The correct interpretation of Rabbeinu Tam is that neither the early nor the late “shkiah” refer to what we commonly call “sunset”.
“I’ve had this Makom Kavua for over 16 years.”
So be matir hanhagah and move to a different place for the next 16 years. Do not do anything that might possibly embarrass this Jew.
R.T wrote:
I read that it’s mekor is a Takana of the Vaad Arbaa Kehilot a few hundered years ago in Eastern Europe and that the Takana is still in force today.
I have this book,”Pinkas Va’ad Arba Ha’aratzot 5341-5525 (1581-1765)” (not kehilot) by Yisroel Halperin, edited by Yisrael Bar Tal and published by Mosad Bialik. Please document your claim, otherwise I will consider it manipulatively false. I have read this book cover to cover and nowhere is this alleged takana mentioned. Prove me wrong and I will retract.
Dear Snowbunny,
With all due respect, your knowledge on this topic is seriously flawed. I suggest you consult with a Rav or otherwise knowledgable person before you make erroneous halachic pronouncements in a public forum.
I apologize if I am offending anyone, but the ban on geometry is a hoax designed to portray the chareidim as obscurantists. The fact that some take it seriously is indicative that the hoaxsters have a valid point.
According to Chazal, eating the ends of the challah causes one to become forgetful.
It is perfectly fine to drive to Chevron. My wife and I drive there very often,sometimes each of us alone and without any special protection on the windows. No difference day or night.
I understand those who are afraid, but they must realize that it is an illogical fear. Many Israelis visit Cambodia and Vietnam, and I have a hard time with that. I remember the war there, as does anyone of my advanced age. But it is an illogical fear and I do not defend it with any conviction.
If I may add a little bit of bitachon, the incredible feeling of visiting the place where it all began, and getting to know the special people who live there, the conclusion should be, “Go, experience, fall in love with your heritage. Don’t miss it.”
I respectfully disagree. First of all, Rashi says specifically that one who was not there the previous day is panim chadashos. He makes no other stipulations.
Furthermore, in my opinion, there are too many interpretations regarding panim chadashos to call it halachah. It is minhag. The prevailing minhag is that you do count. Besides, you may not yet know the chosson and kallah, but you’ll get to meet them. I’m sure they will be happy to meet someone new, and that is enough l’samcham. Win-win. Go and have a good time.
For a thorough treatment of this issue, please read Chapter 3 of Yisrael Ta’Shma’s book “Halachah, Minhag U’metziut B’Ashkenaz: 1100-1350”. The chapter is named “Halachah K’batra’i”.
In it you will see how Rabbanim of different periods viewed themselves in relation to those who came before them. Keep in mind that by definition everyone in their time is “new, modern, and the last word”.
Dear Rebdoniel,
If you are studying kisui rosh for men, you will be very interested in Prof. E. Zimmer’s chapter on it in his book “Olam K’minhago Noheg”. Chapter One.
It seems that this thread is suffering from a common thread ailment. The OP wants advice and/or suggestions. Instead of this, she is subjected to one or more of the following:
1. Don’t do what you want to do, it’s pas nisht.
2. Your values are too materialistic.
3. Previous generations cared about what Hashem wants, and you don’t.
4. I know exactly what Hashem wants, and I always do exactly that.
5. From a halachic point of view, you are doing an aveirah. Shame on you.
Please, lay off. She asked for advice, not mussar. YOu need to give mussar? Talk to the mirror.
One need not get rid of an ayin hara because there is no such thing.
A few points:
1. The cherem of the Gra against the chassidim marked perhaps the end of the cherem as an effective punitive tool. Then, and since then, the cherem has been at best ineffective, often a bad joke, and at worst, a chillul hashem.
2. The cherem against the chassidim was a colossal mistake that was unfortunately repeated. Read Wilenski’s “Chassidim U’misnagdim” for proof. It’s two volumes and worth every page.
3. The “way of the Gra” was not the norm in his time. Even the city of Vilna did not accept his minhagim. Today, his minhagim are followed among only select groups, and even that on a pick and choose basis. Yes, even amongst the prushim in Yerushalayim.
4. Comparing the lomdus of the Besht vs. the Gra is as fruitful as comparing the lomdus (l’havdil) of Bach vs. Rembrandt.
After reading all of these posts, I must say that although 147 did not give specific advice, his description of the intuitive aspects of spouse selection hits the nail on the head. Read his post carefully again and follow its implied advice.
“…my posek told me that its a mitzvah in Israel to not pay taxes if there was absolutely no chance of getting caught…. “
This psak is very distressing. The frum veldt has made great strides in recent years encouraging people to realize the inherent and unequivocal immorality of intentionally taking from others without reimbursing or reciprocating according to the accepted rules. Getting caught or not is irrelevant.
This psak reinforces the prejudiced belief that chareidim are just plain old thieves who have not yet been caught. I would have loved to say that this unfortunate belief is outright prejudice but not truthful, but I see that it is indeed still true.
I have some sad news for Ba’alei teshuvah: The situation of discrimination described above, real as well as imagined, is not going to change. That does not mean it should be ignored, quite the contrary. However, elitism and the insistence on “invei hagefen b’invei hagefen” among the “meyuchasim” is deeply entrenched and enjoys a history lasting over a thousand years. While there have been exceptions, the rule exists. It may seem unfair, narcissistic and even against Torah values,and some may (strangely enough) claim that Torah hashkafah encourages it. But it is human nature and human nature isn’t going away.
One should always remember the rule:
If it’s not your money, it should not be in your thoughts.
On Friday at 4 o’clock my son called me. At the end of our conversation he said “Good Shabbos, Abba”. Having read this thread and being determined to be a good Jew, I told him he could not hang up the phone. By Motzei Shabbos his hand was very tired and his wife and children were annoyed.
Lesson: Judaism permits the use of the brain before reaching far-flung and quite impossible halachic conclusions.
I read about the Weberman accusations and verdict, but not on a frum website.
I watched the Lipa Chanukah video (courtesy of YWN), I am not very familiar with this person named Lipa.
I watched the Hasidic Jew Gangnam video (courtesy of YWN), I had never heard of Gangnam.
I now know that wearing a tie to Shabbos mincha is a bizayon of Shabbos.
I now know that saying Good Shabbos on Friday afternoon is potentially disastrous. Maybe even worse than saying it on Shabbos afternoon.
I now know that a tmimusdikeh masmid who is kula toirah must see a young woman’s photograph before he wastes his time and someone else’s money on a date.
I live in Israel, but sense that the thought processes of yidden in America are in total disarray.
It is perfectly permissible to say “Good/Gut Shabbos” at any time of day or night on Friday and Shabbos.
The source for the prohibition is your conscience. If it doesn’t belong to you, don’t take it. End of discussion.