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I read the kol koreh in both languages. I am not a member of the chareidi/yeshivish/chassidic community.
I was not surprised at all by the language and tone. It expresses how the American chareidi community and its leaders feel about Open Orthodoxy, no more and no less. It was not offensive, demeaning, condescending or angry. It does not tell anyone “what to do” operatively when encountering an open orthodoxy person (Can they be identified on the subway? Do they wear OO t-shirts? I wonder).
It will have an effect or not, time will tell. Treating it as a Rashi or Rambam to be dissected on an operative halachic level may be fun, but is pure conjecture at this point. It was a declarative statement and not a plan of action.
Hello Neville, I’ll try to keep it alive.
Here are two minhag haGra brachos that are universally said in Israel and not in chutz la’aretz (if there are exceptions, they prove the rule)
1. Shehecheyanu at every bris after the bracha lehachniso
2. Shir hashirim, Rut and Kohelet are read from a klaf with two brachot, al mikra megilla and shehecheyanu. Some read Eichah from a klaf with only al mikra megilla, most do not read Eichah from a klaf (no klaf, no bracha)
There are plenty of places on the web to receive information about minhagei haGra, As has been correctly pointed out,there is tremendous variability in which minhagim are kept where, and to what extent.Almost all people who say they follow the Gra do not follow him to the absolute degree.
As an example, I know of no shul in Chutz La’aretz, and a very few here in Israel, that follow the Gra’s chalukat aliyot on Rosh Hodesh. Tukochinsky’s luach has this minhag as the proper way to lein, but almost no one does it.
With all due respect, the claim that Reb Moshe opposed ALL prenups is anachronistic.
Um, no. A small minority of Ahkenazic Jewry were talmidei HaGra.
Furthermore, many minhagei HaGra are hearsay, the Gra never compiled a list of his customs. Curiously, there is no such thing as “Siddur HaGra” because the Gra never compiled a siddur, and no one knows (or even claims to know) from which siddur the Gra himself davened.
Yosefcoleman, your question is better than any answer you will receive. I’ll try to put things into perspective.
Before the ashkenazic influx, the minhagim were indeed sefardic, but in a loose way. Sefardim are less uptight than ashkenazim and throughout the ages were more amenable to minhagim of others (i.e., the Rosh after 1306 in Spain).Remember that the old yishuv was not technologically or communally advanced. The sefardim did not rule by central authority, which allowed for others to fill a vacuum.In addition, sefardic minhagim are not monolithic, there are many variations there too.
The chassidim who came with R’ Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk in the 1770s were concentrated in Zefat and Tverya and had a
minimal and uninfluential representation in Yerushalayim.
The first talmidei haGra , of the Rivlin family, came after 1809, followed by larger numbers in the middle of the 1800s. As proud bearers of the torch of the Gra, they exploited the vacuum to establish their way as the Ashkenazic way, and hence we have minhag haGra as minhag yerushalyim and by extension, minhag Eretz Yisrael. As Yerushalayim goes, so goes the country. As a historical quirk, all know that minhagei haGra were not accepted in Vilna, his hometown. They were only disseminated decades later and far away.
Needless to say, not all are happy with this system, and the current chassidim never accepted it. Here and there there are pockets of resistance from the yekkes, the Americans, and others who aren’t willing to let go of their old minhagim. We can debate who is right, but that’s irrelevant from a historical point of view.
edited
To Sam , Joseph (shtei neshimos) and others
Some clarifying points to my previous post:
1. I did not find anywhere that saying barchu at the end of ma’ariv is minhag ha’Gra.If I missed something, I’ll be happy to be corrected.
2. I am well aware of Tukochinsky’s luach. Although minhag yerushalayim, and by extension in many cases, minhag eretz yisrael is minhag haGra, this is not always the case. The luach is minhag haprushim (albeit talmidei Ha’Gra), but as expected, their minhagim were influenced here and there by the minhag hamakom, which was sefaradi before the prushim showed up.
3. The sefaradim always say borchu at the end, shacharis and arvis. It seems that this was to help out the latecomers and became a lo ploog. The prushim accepted this with the logical proviso that in cases where there are no latecomers, it should not be said. As Shmoolik correctly pointed out, this would be on Monday and Thursday morning (borchu in leining for the latecomers)and Leil Shabbat (plenty of time , even for the latecomers). Following this logic, borchu is not said arvis after Ne’ilah Yom Kippur because everyone is in shul already, and Tukochinsky specifically includes this quirk in the luach.
5. Although this is controversial, there are those who say that historically, yiru eineinu was instituted to help out the latecomers come for tefillah b”tzibur. Since the Gaon eliminated this Ashkenazic practice, it is unlikely that he was concerned with latecomers, at least according to this explanation.
Finally, in defense of gabbaim. Gabbaim contend constantly with uber chachomim who walk into a shul where they are nonpaying guests, yet feel that their personal spiritual needs supersede the tzibbur and minhag hamakom. They need to be taught. It’s usually best to teach privately and b’nachat, but in terms of getting the message across, sometimes the harsh method brings results, and the private-talk method does not. Many of these fellows then go on to argue with the gabbai that the minhag hamakom is wrong and needs to be changed on the spot. These people do not get any sympathy from the gabbai, nor do they deserve any.
This minhag is common to Sefardim and Ashkenazim in EY. In America, as is well known, Ashkenazim do not have this minhag. While the gabbai may have overreacted, the guest yachid hamispallel has no right to do any public action in shul without the gabbai’s express permission. I would have spoken to the fellow after shul and explained this to him, but I still support the gabbai here. The guilty party here is the mispallel and not the gabbai.
One more note: The authentic Askenazi minhag is not to say barchu. In EY, the Ashkenazim picked it up from the Sefardim.
The gedolim are smart enough and busy enough not to waste their time commenting on nonsense.
Close your halachah seforim.
Leave your Rov out of this.
Your wife doesn’t like the idea? Don’t you dare give this woman a ride.
Ok, I understand. I won’t say how I know about Rav Chanoch Karelenstein. He was indeed a special person. Anyway, if the Kippa fellow wants the set, he’ll let me know and I’ll take it from there.
Mobico and Kippakeeper, are you one and the same?
I am in Israel, and if this set is available somewhere, I can get it.
Which Rav Karelenstein? Zvi Dov shlitah or his son Chanoch z”l?
If you can be a bit more specific, I can find out how to get the sefer.
I have been living in Israel for close to thirty years.
My message is simple and almost always true.
An Israeli who finds himself in the States learns English because otherwise he will fail. Your grandparents came from Poland and Lita , learned the language of the country and succeeded.
There it is. If you want to live here, put in the time and effort to learn Hebrew. Go to Ulpan. Forget about your American accent (I have a heavy one), it is an asset, not a liability. Read the Hebrew newspaper ONLY. Listen to the Hebrew news ONLY. Without it, you stand to fail. You know aleph bais? Read a siddur? A chumash? You are more than halfway there. If you don’t, you will forever feel alien, and aliens fail. Failed? Blame yourself.
It depends where you live. Where do you live?
pcoz:
I have a magical silver knife to sell you for $479 (cheaper than in Mishpachah magazine, a real bargain), it will cut out spleens and make the patient run faster to his death.
Thank you DY for recommending Rabbi Dr. Berman’s article. Professor Berman, whom I know personally, is a scholar and a real anav. He is well known for having written books illustrating the greatness and beauty of the messages of Torah Shebichtav as opposed to other ancient cultures.
True, he and others blame the internet. However, he does not simply play the blame game, as all know the internet is here to stay and is almost surely going to befuddle our and our childrens’ best efforts to ignore it.
He offers sound advice and suggestions. Well worth reading.
Those who prohibit sunglasses atidim latet et hadin bashamayim . HKBH will want to know why we invented nonsensical sensitivities and obsessed over narishkeit unrelated to Torah. Attaching sunglasses to something the goyim do is utterly ridiculous and insulting to a thinking person and brings no nachas to the Aibishter.
Having said that, I will prove that sunglasses have been permitted by leading poskim.
As you all should know, but as DY has pointed out with hair coloring for men, you don’t and should be forgiven for your am ha’aratzus, there is a machloket between Rav Elyashiv zt”l and Reb Shlomo Zalman zt”l as to the permissibility of wearing lenses that change into sunglasses outside (photochromic lenses) on Shabbat. Rav Elyashiv says “No”,it is Tzove’a. Reb Shlomo Zalman says “muttar”, not Tzove’a. Neither bring up the possibility that Shabbat is irrelevant because even b’chol there is some chashash or other.
Clearly, according to both, it is permitted during the week. Hence, regular sunglasses are permitted during the week and on Shabbat. Hamachmirim will not wear photochromic lenses on Shabbat.
How interesting to see that the participants here are performing figure eights in order to throw out a beferush Mechaber, Rama, and Reb Moshe on the grounds that this halachah is outdated, old fashioned and irrelevant in our modern times. Sounds very much like YCT pick and choose thinking that we all love to despise. I would suggest you all look in the mirror to see your hypocrisy, but alas, the Mechaber assurs that too.
Sorry to disappoint all of you MO mekillim who think this issue is debatable.
The Shulchan Aruch explicitly prohibits this action, see YD:182:6
In addition, Reb Moshe zt”l prohibits even oral medication to achieve the same effect.
See Igros Moshe,YD:82
This issue was analyzed by the Chasam Sofer in his tshuva, OH:83. I thought every yeshiva bochur knew that.
Dear syag,
i would love to answer you, except that the moderator would never let it through, and it won’t be the first time. I see though that you suffer from the previous-heavy-smoker-syndrome. You’ve seen the other side, and now the ultimate truth is yours and yours alone. Suffice it to say that I have a close relative who is a therapist in a super-chareidi neighborhood, and I know what goes on. I would never trade places with you, and thank G-d I once resisted an adolescent urge to do just that. I just pity the system that rants, raves, and beats its chest in haughty arrogance, but ultimately has nothing to show for it.
Syag, with your hundreds of dapim learned and the hundreds of mussar shmuessen you’ve listened to, and with the daily anti-modernism chizuk you get in yeshiva, and still you cannot own a smartphone without falling off the spiritual cliff, then I feel sorry for you and your entire system.I trust your grandchildren will find a better way.
Buy a smartphone and control yourself.
Dear Golfer,
In regard to your response to Haleivi, please look up the expression, tongue-in-cheek. Heleivi was merely describing the current yeshiva system.
I may be wrong but I think golfer may respond in kind to you regarding her post -29
I see that we can finally put to rest the idea that one must “dress his best” for every davening. I agree. Therefore, the yeshivish way is only one of many ways to dress for davening, and the insistence on it is socially driven and nothing more. And yet, I have been the tenth man in a yeshivish mincha minyan (not in a yeshiva) more than once and watched them wait until another person dressed like them showed up before starting. But we have ten! Sorry, only nine.
I know it’s not personal, they don’t know me or know that I’m the MO old man yeshiva hater. It’s just that they were taught that people dressed like me don’t count for a minyan. For the record, I wear long pants,a buttoned down shirt, and shoes.
OCD, bigoted, yawn. Thank you, moderator, for keeping to a single standard by allowing these compliments to be posted. Aifah v’aifah.
Figured you could handle it, and it would give you a chance to reply. No harm intended by posting
There are two views presented here supporting the black fedora-black jacket-black pants dress. One is that this is a uniform that identifies the participant with a certain hashkafah, in this case the litvishe yeshiva way. As a uniform, it obligates only those who choose to belong to this team, no different than the uniform of the N.Y. Giants players. Anyone who chooses not to be a member of this team is not obligated to wear the uniform.
The second is that this mode of dress is preferred because one should dress in the most respectful way possible,as one would before a king or president. This specific yeshivish way of interpreting this required dress is highly debatable, and I totally disagree with it. Even so,I point out that the yeshiva boys do not comply with it, and anyone who thinks they do should take some lessons in etiquette, cleanliness and social norms. An eye examination would also help. Suffice it to say that no one dresses for mincha in the same clothing as for a date. The veldt clearly has voted with its actions and does not dress as if they were meeting the president.
So, if it’s just a uniform, and it is just that, lay off those who are not on your team. Let them daven with you without making a fuss. Dress the way you want, but don’t impose it on others. The others certainly don’t impose their dress on you.
Do you want to step it up for Shabbos? Wear cuff links. Put on an expensive tie. There are plenty of ways.
Some clarifications:
I am in favor of abandoning the black hat-jacket form of dress. I am not naive, it will not happen, but that’s my position.
The color of the fedora is academic, we all know that virtually all litvish yeshiva boys wear some variation of a black fedora.
My question about clean attire raised support, with no one saying that clean fedora-jacket is only optional and not mandatory.
I have seen many thousands of yeshiva boys, like most of you out there. Ponovitch, Mir, Lakewood, Chaim Berlin, Telz, Brisk, and others. I have been in countless small yeshivishe minyanim and batei medrash. Virtually no one is careful about a clean and properly shaped hat, jacket and matching (clean) pants.
My conclusion is that demanding a fedora and jacket because it is the most respectful of attire, and less than that is “a step down” , lies in direct contradiction to what is actually practiced in the veldt. I say forget the uniform, just dress neatly.
But again, yadai al hatachtonah here, wouldn’t you say?
So, I would like the esteemed coffee room participants to kindly answer the following question.
If a black hat and dark jacket are respectful, and possibly the only respectful clothing for men, is it also necessary to any extent that these garments be clean?
Dear Moderator
Your reply to me was amusing. I suspect that there are thousands of replies which in any measure of objectivity, do not relate directly to the OP. Mine actually did, and was a response to a response. You deleted it because the message in it does not conform to your religious sensitivities. I dare you to print it.
I deleted it because it did not conform to rules of basic decency. My comment was made in order to point out that as it was irrelevant, its deletion is a poor excuse to avoid further response to the topic.
Long hair is not a chatzitzah for tefillin or anything else.
Proof: Nezirus.
The editors apparently refused to post my reply from yesterday. So please don’t waste your time on comments to me, as you are engaging only yourself in this debate.
If this is a trend, I’m in favor. It is definitely not a step backward for anyone. It is not a step at all, and it’s perfectly reasonable.
Despite the fact that one of the poskei hador has forbidden short sleeved shirts (which solves this pseudohalachic issue), I have full confidence that the lamdanim here can find a way to forbid rolling up sleeves on shabbos . Seeing that this leaves us shirtless rl”z, someone will then invent “the Shabbos Sleeve”, which will be wildly popular among the yeshivishers, until that too will be looked upon as too modern. And so on….
The chassidim were indeed once all called Karliners, but for a different reason. As is known, the Lithuanian misnagdim went to the Russian authorities and complained that the chassidim were not obeying the rules of traditional Judaism. The Russians went to investigate the local chassidic sect in Karlin but were not aware of the nuances of different chassidic sects in different places. Hence, in their report, they referred to the chassidic groups as a whole by the only name they knew at the time, the Karlin sect.
There’s no such thing.
There. Now you are free to choose someone you actually like.
Dear Zev7,
Well, in this thread you have found your confirmation. The elitist Litvish world has always held steadfastly that their way is THE WAY, and there is no other.Here you have shown that there is another way, and it is no less legitimate. And there are still other legitimate ways.
One of my Roshei Yeshiva used to say “Stay away from those who think that the truth lies only with them.” Keep this in mind as you grow in yiddishkeit,as there are some chassidim who are unfortunately no less elitist than their litvish counterparts. Aleh v’hatzlach, v’sheyirbu kamocha b’yisrael.
As an aside, regurgitating the Gaon’s objections to chassidus by some here is highly distressing. For a good history of the debate,read Wilenski’s two volume work, consisting of the correspondences between the chassidim and misnagdim in the late 1700s into the 1800s. It is an absolute festival of sinas chinam, and not for the faint-hearted. Let’s be thankful we are past that, and let’s keep ourselves past it.
For yungerleit, two wives is a necessity. You can’t expect the boy to make it on only one salary
I knew Rav Lichtenstein zt”l well, and heard hundreds of shiurim from him. Others heard thousands, I only hundreds.
One short story. Almost half a century ago, A talmid of his, now a renowned Rosh Yeshiva, was astounded at how much Torah Rav Lichtenstein knew at such a young age, and asked him how he managed to know so much so early in life. Rav Lichtenstein answered, ” When I was younger,I slept only every other night. One night I slept, next night I learned all night, etc…”
Combine intellectual genius with unreal hasmadah, an unparalleled power of concentration, tzidkus and anavah, and you have the godol hador. Baruch shezachinu.
ubiquitin:
Sorry, the mistakes are yours. You obviously do not live in Israel and are unfamiliar with Tukochinsky’s luach. It is not just a quick guidebook to whether we say tachanun or not. In America, where there are endless variations in minhagim due to the melting pot effect of European immigration,they still argue whether to duchen on shabbos yom tov, whether to say Av Harachamim, and whether to have separate minyanim for tefillin (non) wearers on chol hamoed. The Ezras Torah luach does not decide these matters.
In Israel in the Ashkenazic non-chassidish community, except for minor exceptions, Tukochinsky’s luach rules. There are minhagim that are minhag Eretz Yisrael and everyone keeps them, or should. Check it out, you may learn something you don’t know. And come and visit us sometime, too bad you missed our bi’ur ma’asrot recitation this past Yom Tov after mincha. Don’t know what that is? It’s never too late to learn.
As for picking up new minhagim, lack of awareness of any minhag will always prevent one from adopting it. Learn, consider, and decide. Get rid of the silly minhagim and adopt the ones that make sense.Make yiddishkeit make sense and not nonsense.
The minhag to recite the nesi’im during Nissan is the minhag of my shul. It is expressly written in Tukochinsky’s famous Luach Minhagei Eretz Yisrael and is practiced by most if not all Ashkenazic shuls in Israel. It corresponds to the dates that the nesi’im brought their sacrifices after the Mishkan was built, after Shivat Y’mei Ha’miluim.
Please don’t compare it to shlissel challah.
Kudos to the person who had the guts to introduce a custom to a shul filled with well meaning but poorly educated mispallelim.
Most ashkenazim treated Shabbos the same as in Chu”l, not eating chametz or kitniyot. Some ashkenazim ate kitniyot. After all, it was not Pesach anymore, and kitniyot is not chametz and is not sold to the goy.
Soft matzah is really irrelevant to this discussion. It is matzah like any other matzah except that it is thicker and soft. It can be eaten at the seder and through Pesach. Many ashkenazim have an emotional aversion to it because it looks too much like an Iraqi pita or laffa, but that’s purely psychological. After Pesach, this psychological barrier falls and they eat it.
To each his own.
“I heard not to use terms such as “hakohein” or “harav” when saying names for tehilim/mi shebeirach.”
and kvuras ha-mes
For the young, the ba’alei tshuvah, and the uninitiated or uneducated,
Lu’ach Eretz Yisrael was first published by Harav Yechiel Michel Tikochinsky in 1905 in Yerushalayim for the “yishuv hayashan”, when Rav Shmuel Salant zt”l was Rabba shel Yerushalayim IH”K.This is minhag haprushim talmidei haGra, and has been accepted since day one as the only authority for minhagei eretz yisrael. It has all the minhagim and dinim of the year, including the davening, times of the molad, krias hatorah and haftorah, olos hashachar, netz tables and more.
Do we say bameh madlikin? Till when can we eat chametz? When is bi’ur ma’asrot? Do we say ka keli? Do we say lamenatzeach? Do we say tachanun? Can I get a haircut erev pesach? Does this village keep 14 or 15 Adar for Purim? When does the chazan take the sefer torah during rosh chodesh bentching? Where should I put my menorah on Chanukah? It’s all in there.
The lu’ach is sold in Elul at all seforim stores or straight from the Tikuchinsky family. It is the only lu’ach accepted by all, mostly because it is the only lu’ach at all. (The rabbanut also has a lu’ach, but it is Rabbanut oriented, Zionist, has minhagei hasefaradim,and is not comprehensive, r”l. No one in the ashkenazic yeshivishe world uses it)
Needless to say, not all sects keep all the same minhagim, timetables or psakim, but those differences are the exception and not the rule. Those who know, also know when their private or community’s minhag deviates from the lu’ach and they act accordingly.
A few years ago, a chutz la’aretz version was published and is available in America.
In summary, in Israel, when there is a question in shul,whether in Meah She’arim, Bet Shemesh, Telzstone or Kiryat Sefer,(or even Tel Aviv) the answer is always “Do what the lu’ach says”.
The lu’ach says to say Sholom Aleichem on the seder night.
“Another question:- Do we chant Sholom Aleichem & Eshes Chayil this Friday evening prior to Kiddush on 1st cup?”
Absolutely yes. It’s Friday night.
Source: Luach Eretz Yisrael 5775, Y.M. Ticochinsky, the standard luach for all Ashkenazim.
Leave out the “Cohen”, it is unnecessary and irrelevant
Akuperma is 100 % correct on this one.
A little information about the Rosh Yeshiva Rav Hirsch Shlita should put the authenticity issue to rest.
Born and raised in America, he is a talmid of Reb Aharon zt”l.
He is extremely highly respected in the Litvish torah world in EY
He is an advocate for Rav Shteinman Shlita’s leadership.
As a native English speaker, he comfortably conveys the Eretz Yisrael situation to the Americans. As an aside, it is embarrassing that he even needs an introduction, after all, he is the RY of Yeshivas Slabodka in Bnei Brak.
After all this, it is clear to me that he was speaking to a somewhat skeptical audience and purposely toned down his rhetoric. What is said in Litvish yeshivas in Israel regarding secular studies is far more uncompromising than the speech above.
Anyone who has an issue with the message the RY conveyed is either unfamiliar with the yeshivishe world in EY, not a part of this world, or is living in denial as to what da’as torah in EY says.
To the OP:
Thank you for posting this. I read it carefully and I have no doubt it is bonafide. It reflects the Litvish yeshivishe hashkafah. If anything, it is quite understated, others have been been much more emphatic in their opposition to secular/academic studies.
So now, time will tell, if it hasn’t already, as to whether this hashkafah provides the recipe for the future success of the yeshivishe community.
Yayin, I assume you meant to say that since it has a nicer finish, it is considered of better quality.