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Pac, There is no reason for you or anyone to be upset that girls willingly and happily marry previously married men. It is their free will and they are to be commended for it.
He, He, Free will- yes (unless they want to stay single), preference- no! The lesser of two evils. They prefer new furniture to used furniture. They prefer used furniture to no furniture. No single girl is davka looking to marry a divorced guy. They are to be commended for making the best of a lousy situation in Shidduchim.
As in the depression, there ought to be “A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage” (Herbert Hoover) and a SINGLE guy for every SINGLE girl. Sadly there isnt.
ms. critique: Im nauseaus. Im seeing the same thing. These days if a S I N G L E !!! girl in her upper twenties wants to get married, she’s got to consider divorced guys, many times with one or more children. Girls in their upper twenties who DONT want to consider divorced guys, are getting older and older and older. Whether right or wrong, this is turning off many of them from Frumkeit. Its very humiliating either way, staying single, or dating a divorced guy.
Divorced_Guy, Not enough shidduchim being redt.
How true!!! The excuse used is that they dont have time or they’re not good at it.
People make time for all kinds of nonsense, and then dont have time to red Shidduchim.
As far as not being good at it, many people stuck to it and became good at it. No reason to give up trying.
popcorn, do you have any idea what helped your niece most? Any tips that would be helpful to a general audience?
I once heard Dr Joy Browne (a psychologist on WOR) offer a tip on lessening fear of public speaking. Im sure lots of people benefited from the tip. Id offer the tip here, but its awkward to mention to frum people, but useful nevertheless.
popcorn, A person with social anxiety is afraid that he/she will make mistakes and be embarrased or humiliated in front of others.
People with social anxiety suffer from distorted thinking, including false beliefs about social situations and the negative opinion of others, Have feelings of inadequacy, self chastisement, judging themselves as being less then others, fear of making a presentation, fear of going out to dinner at restaurants or public gatherings, fear of initiating or maintaining conversations, Physical symptoms include
pounding heart, sweating , blushing …..
G I M M E A B R E A K!!!
This applies to everyone, to some degree!!!!!
You ever heard of President Obama? The guy in the White House? He was visiting with the Queen of England lately! He goofed during a toast to the Queen, by momentarily putting down his piece of paper that he was reading from, which the orchestra took to mean that he was finished with his toast to the Queen. Well, guess what, he wasnt! He continued speaking as the band played the National Anthem, while the Queen who was standing next to him looked on with shock and horror because that was a terrribly gauche thing to do (there are video clips). Now, I would think that Obama has a healthy level of self confidence and NO social anxiety that needs therapy. BUT, I guarantee you, after that incident, he must have been told about his goof, and I can imagine he was NOT pleased with himself and the fact that he’s President didnt neutralize his embarassment and regret, especially knowing it was all over the internet. No speaking during playing of Anthems, especially in front of the QUEEN!
; )
Everyone!!!!!!! cares about not making fools of themselves in public, even the President!
Its easier to talk about it than to internalize it, but, we have to remember the Torah is perfect, people (even people on highly religious rungs) arent.
What a fascinating, thought provoking question, thanks!
I wish I knew. Obviously more dont than do.
Will anyone be honest enough to admit that they probably would not become religious/Jewish?
Milano sale, Tzedaka Luncheon, choosing Hatzolah BP tickets, among other things.
What about tomorrow? Any ideas?
Boro Park Girl, so would you rather wait forever to buy the 1.2 mil house in BP, or perhaps consider a 500,000 house in Kensington or even parts of Flatbush?
aries, I love your “haunted house” story (and all your others as well. I find your posts very interesting and informative).
aries, if you were starting out now, where and for what (what kind) would you be looking for a house? These days, renovating a “haunted house”, just enough to make it livable, can cost a hundred thou easily and you never know what Tzaros you’re getting into once you start renovations.
Maybe there’s some kind of hypnotherapy to rid you of your fear. If you master your fear, you’ll feel great. If you dont do it, there will be some times that you’ll be embarassed to admit it in public. These days almost everyone drives (except for Chassidishe women).
On your own, do the worst case scenario analysis, if you really give it thought, you’ll see that whatever you fear, theres always a chance that you can bring about the same negative result, through other means as well ch”v. There are people that dont get out of bed for fear that they’ll hurt themselves or someone else.
I’d love to see studies on children raised with no gender orientation, whove now become adults, and see if they’re more successful and happier adults or more confused. Id love to see whether there are more avantages or disadvantages.
Seems to me, in this case, the parents are giving this child lots of unwanted attention that the child might me mocked for at some point in the future. That doesnt sound so healthy to me.
I think I have one valuable piece of advice for role models such as Mechanchim (not really hypochrisy related though, unless we consider embarassing a student hypochrisy, so maybe it is after all):
Never ever call a child an Apikores for asking a question about Emunah, etc. as mentioned by R’ Pinchas Young so eloquently! It will not yield good results E V E R!
aries, ask them why is this happening. Most of them will give it to you in a one word sentence “HYPOCRISY”.
IMHO, definitely a very large part of it! Now what do we do about it? I think by and large, the common folk is trying their best, with all the koichos they have, to be the best role models they can possibly be. What’s your opinion about those who are not the common folk’s (role models other than family members) hypochrisy and how it can be improved? I think thats crucial.
Health, I like the theory of abuse and actually there are a lot of professionals who agree to this hypothesis.
Wo, are we in BIG trouble as a community!
With growing numbers of OTD kids and “orthoprax” kids/adults who are essentially OTD as well (percentage of cases per age group is frightening and increasing), if your supposition is true, and abuse is the chief cause of going OTD, we have to quickly evaluate and reeducate all our children before they become parents and inflict the same damage on their children. They say abuse is a continuous pattern in families. If there’s that much abuse going on in our community (youre saying that every OTD case is a direct result of and therefore goes hand in hand with abusive parenting or Chinuch), we as a community need very serious problem solving in all areas. Its an emergency! How can anyone be proud to be part of a community with regularly increasing cases of abuse/OTD? It might not be me or you, but its our relatives, friends and neighbors, is it not?
Whatever bothers you more, the OTD statistics or the abuse statistics-which you claim are one and the same, it’s stemming from our community and we’d better do something about it really quickly!
le7, I guarantee you not one OTD kid did it primarily to get attention, which they know will be negative attention. They’d much prefer getting positive attention than negative. IMHO it’s when theyre not accepted for not fitting the mold or things go very wrong for them that problems begin…..Very rarely do we see top kids who are doing well academically, socially and Mazel-wise, go OTD. They have no reason to. Life is good.
DYLots of tefillos, lots of love
True, but a decree is a decree. Im sure many davened and did all the Hishtadlus in many situations (Holocaust for one), and there were Nissim Gluyim, but all in all, what was meant to be, was.
Ok, so what DO the Gedolim offer as advice to prevent kids from going OTD? Obviously they dont have one-size-fits-all clear-cut answers, because Im aware of Gedolim who have had OTD kids themselves (to different degrees, some Shomer Shabbos, some not). The Yetzer Hara affects all kids. Even Gedolim’s.
a gitta, Perhaps it is his parents who were OTD (of good parenting)
Perhaps and perhaps not. Yaish v’Yaish.
Perhaps our schools ought to offer parenting education. It’s not ingrown all the time. Surely wouldnt hurt.
R Shmuel, There IS one single reason. It is called ABUSE. Children that were not abused emotionally, will not go off the Derech. Period. (The real experienced therapists in our community know this the most).
Thats as valid a statement as saying that all cancers are a result of cigarettes. Abstaining from cigarettes will guarantee a cancer-free life. Su-erre.
Pac, whether the reviewer does or doesnt know what he’s talking about, I’ve sat in classes years ago and rolled my eyes, as I listened to some teachers come up with feeble attempts at answers to faith questions, like the one above, and so have my children. B”H I got answers elsewhere and more strength from teachers who admitted that we dont have all the answers than from those “know-it-alls” who espoused “do this” or “believe this”…. “or else”, and came up with these kinds of feeble attempts at clarity.
Fascinating book by Ms Margolese. Heres some of an Amazon review (I darkened the few sentences I wanted to emphasize):
This is an important book. And the writer of the book is to be commended for choosing a subject which is of great importance to the Jewish community, and has not been previously treated ( so far as I know) in book form. Faranak Margolese spent five years preparing this book, interviewed several hundred people including many major Rabbis for the project. She studied the subject in depth and came to no easy and hasty conclusion.
One of her findings is that there is no single all- encompassing reason why observant Jews cease to be so. It can be the coolness of their own observant parents to religion, or the difficulty they have with teachers in school. It can come from their own sense of the religion’s simply ‘not working’ for them. There are many , many reasons. And the author is honest enough to say that she has no formula for any specific case.
Here it is important to note that this study is written by an observant person who is looking at the falling away from observance as something ‘negative’ In other words this book’s audience is the audience of observant Jews worried about what is happening to their community.
My own experience teaches me too that there are many reasons for falling away. One is simply the great amount of time and effort required to be religious when people are in frameworks ( for instance, university) where they may be pressed for time. I would too second one of the major points the author makes, the frequent insensitivity of religious people to the needs of their fellows. Even in the matter of ‘rebuking’ those fallen away, I have seen a neglect of Rambam’s advice to do this gently and with respect for the dignity of the person.
I believe one reason the author may not give enough emphasis too is the question of love of truth and intellectual integrity. Einstein left religious life simply because he came to believe its stories ‘not true’. I think that in present day Judaism there is a tremendous turning away, even on the part of the most leading and modern rabbis, from the intellectual challenges brought about by a world which scientifically and technically is changing at an accelerated pace.
In this regard I remember one session I attended in a certain well – known Yeshiva , which will go nameless here. A young student whose background was in the sciences asked a question about the religious view of the origin of the Universe. The teacher said to the young man, “Do you have a washing machine?” The young man did not know what to say. The teacher went on. “Well if you do, you know it comes with a manual, a set of rules which tells you how it works. Now” he said holding a Tannakh (Bible) this is our Instruction Manual. Read this, and you will know how the Universe works” The young student looked a bit perplexed, but the teacher was extremely satisfied with himself. My point is that not always are our teachers and educators at the level required to meet the intellectual challenges and questions presented by students.
With exaggeration, this is the atmosphere we are raising children in today:
Shteig, shteig, shteig exactly as I tell you to. If you dont follow the rules, you’re letting Hashem and everyone down and the world will suffer the consequences (possibly another Holocaust). If you follow the rules exactly, you’ll be happy.
Guilt and shame for those who cant follow or wont follow exactly.
No fun allowed.
No questions allowed.
To summarize: An unrealistic view of childhood, for many.
Schadenfreude- a German word that describes German WW2 behavior.
: (
I went to a very frum High School in Brooklyn in the seventies. Loads of girls got nose jobs during their school years, and the Hanhala didnt blink. Nor did any of those girls go Off The Derech.
ROTFL.
Mod, once you were fixing, why did you leave “the spelling mistake in the title is annoying and looks r e t a r t e d”?
minyan gal, not so easy. Goq has to face the guy who left him out, every day at work! If it was me, Id have an honest middle person clear the air.
Goq, whether you go or not, if that would happen to me, I’d like a truthful explanation via an honest middleman.
Goq, can you get someone you trust to ask the Baal Simcha? Id want clarity. I’d feel the same way as Goq!
Overturn, Othello
Pac, I’d like to hear Gedolim’s take on that.
I’m sure there are those who feel we might have 6 millon+ more Jews had we had a State of Israel pre WW2. It’s called Hishtadlus.
Ain Somchin al Hanes.
Pac, what if it results in passionate desire and determination of our enemies to exterminate another few million homeless (as a result of such sacrifice) Jews ch”v?
Pac, we accomplished loads by offering Gush Katif (su-eeeere). At what point do we realize we’ve given enough and accomplished nothing? How much of Israel are you willing to sacrifice? 10%? 50%? more? less? How much giving up will yield a true and lasting PEACE (not pieces)?
Mike, thanks for posting! So inspiring! They have Gan Eden, in the present, seeing the fruits of their labor, and will surely have Gan Eden in the future, after 120, as well iy”H.