NY Mom

Jewess: The shells under dresses. For the love of God, give people a break!!! It’s hard enough to keep tzniut as it is, and I can’t even believe that people would say that wearing a shell under a sleeveless dress or spaghetti strap one is not tzanua. You’re chking people. Literally.

Please re-read my above post. You completely missed something. I said that I felt that it sent the wrong message, but that it is a “personl thing” – not assur l’halachah! I also said it is “nothing compared to the real problems”.

And in my opening post I said “I am not trying to put anyone down. I am trying to understand this trend and trying to be mechazek others in this inyan.”

So chill out!

Have you ever thought that that woman (or man) with the short/tight skirt or whatever article of clothing–or lack of–that she (or he) is wearing, is working on other midot or mitzvot?

The fact about clothing is that whenever you choose something to wear, you are presenting yourself to the world and projecting an image of yourself. If you wear denim or sweats, you are broadcasting informality. If you are wearing a suit, you are telling people that you mean business. This is a fact that even the goyim accept. (Ever heard the saying “The clothes make the man”?) So if a woman (or man???) is wearing a short/tight skirt, she is sending a message to the world. What exactly is she trying to say? Is she saying “I am a bas Melech”? That is not the message I get.

You also said, This topic has been chewed to death, here, there and everywhere. If you don’t like this thread, then no one is forcing you to read it. So don’t!

Thank you, ames! I really appreciate that! You’re the best 🙂

Pashute Yid, and truthsharer: You see, this is why we have to ask shailos from our poskim and not just pasken from sources that we read on our own.

Also, Let me rephrase something that I wrote above that the powers-that-be-in-the-CR deemed inappropriate: Even shoes can be inappropriate. Some of the high heel styles that some women are wearing now are so low in appearance, goyishe-looking, more appropriate for a zonah. (This word is good enough to be in the Torah is it good enough for the YW CR?) Just fine

SJSinNYC: I am not talking about “a woman with a sleeve that is 1/4″ too short” (although that is also contrary to the halachah as I have learned it), and to think that that is the only problem is a bit naive. (Please forgive me for that but I wish I could still be naive with some of the stories I have heard!) Halevai that would be the only problem!

It is form-fitting outfits and styles that emphasize certain body parts or call attention to certain body parts that are the real problem now, IMHO. Even shoes can be inappropriate. Some of the high heels now are so…I am looking for a word here…Am I allowed to say…..in the YW CR?….NO

I will quote several Rebbitzins that I have heard say, “A woman should dress in a way that is attractive, not attracting.”

Unfortunately, many frum women do not know this or do not take this to heart.

cherrybim: There is something to what you say, but if you think that it is as simple as this, then think again.

Yes, inappropriate interactions between couples does contribute to unfair and unfortunate comparisons, but do you think that a lack of tznius has nothing to do with some shalom bayis problems? Speak to a Rav who lives in NY and deals with couples in conflict, and you will be shocked by what you hear.

Hi Ames! I’m glad you’re here. I wanted to ask you about socks vs. no socks according to Sephardic psak halacha. So what’s the story?

SJSinNYC: NY Mom, do you ever speak lashon hara? That’s picking and choosing. Everyone picks and chooses, from all spectrums.

I’m not denying that MO people sometimes pick and choose what halacha they follow. I’m just explaining its not a MO thing.

Your point is well taken. Although, I would not have chosen that example as it is not exactly analogous. Lashon hara is acknowledged by all to be a bad thing, and when we speak it, we do it out of weakness. We are giving in to our yetzer hara and speaking words that we know are wrong. (Unless, of course, the person “chooses” not to care about L”H!) However, when someone decides not to cover her hair when she is married, she is b’shitah saying to the world “I do not cover my hair and that is OK”. She doesn’t acknowledge that she is doing wrong.

However, you are right that all people pick and choose their own derech.

But I will also say that there is a difference between people who choose one halachically acceptable shitah over another and people who just do as they wish. For example, if someone decides not to be machmir in chalav Yisroel, he has what to rely on, halachically speaking. But if someone decides to go mixed swimming, do you think that they are relying on a psak halacha by their LOR?

Feif Un: So you think the halachos changed? That’s the problem – people turn chumros into halachos, and expect everyone to follow them.

What halachos did I mention? What chumros did I mention?

I didn’t think that I needed to spell it out, but obviously I do. When women are covering their hair, covering their knees, and covering their elbows, but their clothing are so tight that you cannot help but see their entire figure, I would say that they are following the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law.

Oy! I am such a “machmir”!

cherrybim: And it’s interesting; years back when “frum women” did not cover the knee or elbow, the men were also of a different mind set and the problem was not on the front burner.

Years ago, non-Jews also dressed b’tznius, and it would have been a scandal had they uncovered their ankles! “Doros holchos u’mismaatos”

That aside, in the time to which you are referring, there was not a widespread frum female educational system like there is today. The bar is higher now. If virtually all frum girls are torah-educated and versed in chumash, Rashi, Rambam, and other varied Jewish subject matter, including halachos, why aren’t they all dressing within normative tznius guidelines – even within the spirit of halachah?

I think our women should be extolled for their accomplishments in areas of tznius, not criticized.

Definitely! Praise on an individual basis whatever or whomever you feel deserves this praise! And I will, as well! However, when there is a problem in our community, there is no mitzvah to ignore it! And when I see frum women who went to BY and are married, walking around with a sheitel, but with clothing that is so tight that I am embarrassed for my husband to look at them, then I cannot ignore the problem!

smalltowngirl: Sometimes if people feel they are being lectured or being dictated to by a Rebbitzin/Rabbi/Teacher, they shut down and don’t want to accept it or won’t even listen. I wanted to by-pass that type of reaction. I wanted to let everyone know that I’m just a regular person, just like them.

On the other hand, other people will only respect what is being said if it comes from an authority figure. Oh well!

I am only being truthful when I say that I am not a Rebbitzin and as Joseph says, many MO people, and all the MO people that I know identify themselves in this way.

I am educated, and work outside of the home not in the chinuch world so it may appear that I’m MO.

This does not make you MO. Modern Orthodoxy is specific group of people who want to distinguish themselves from more traditional orthodoxy.

BTW, I am also not in a specific category. I am a Bais Yaakov girl who is college-educated, which is not unusual in the NY area. I don’t usually label myself and try not to label others, but when speaking about tznius, this is useful for the sake of clarity.

PY: Having gone to Bais Yaakov for almost my whole life, I have never heard that socks are optional. Ask any Bais Yaakov girl what she learned in school regarding this. What Bais Yaakov allows girls to go around with no socks?

In fact regarding bare feet, as far as I know, the halacha is “shok b’isha erva” and I just heard a psak from a very prominent Rav in Brooklyn who confirmed what I have just said. So this whole recent shtick with flip-flops in the frum community or bare legs is not halachically correct.

The only exception to this, that I have heard is for Sephardim, but you would have to ask one of our Sephardic friends to confirm that this is true.

Mepal: If you look above, you will see that regarding this I said “that is nothing compared to the real problems”. When it comes to shells under everything, for me it just makes me feel uncomfortable.

Let me give you a real example. At a recent wedding, I saw a member of the wedding party wearing a sleeveless and strapless gown – with a white shell. To me that is just saying to the world, “I really would like to be wearing a sleeveless and strapless gown, but just to make it kosher I’ll put on the shell”. I just don’t like it. I think it sends the wrong message. And while the example I gave is an extreme one, even with a more moderate example the same message still applies.

Personal thing – I don’t like it.

Spagetti straps with long sleeves underneath? Puleeze!

Mybat, I am not kidding! Come to NY and you will see this! And the whole “shell” thing is very popular.

But that is nothing compared to the real problems. One of the things that really get me upset is when frum women wear shirts or tops that are not long enough. All they need to do is stretch, bend, or reach for something and…Whoops! This is all too common, as well!

haifagirl: In NY, it is not just a V-neck with a shell underneath. It is sleeveless with a shell, spaghetti straps with a shell, anything you can imagine – but with a long sleeve shell underneath. I can not understand it myself and refuse to wear this very popular style.

Feif Un: There is something to what you say, but now that the gedarim have been broken, I don’t see things just “getting better” even if (so called) “unnecessary chumros” are dropped. It’s gone too far for that.