NY Mom

SJS: First, I must say that it was incredibly brave of you to bring this up. I totally admire you for this.

Secondly, I would definitely speak to a doctor about this. Did this ever happen when just wearing a hair accessory like a headband or barrette?

I know one other person who has told me that she began covering her hair when she first got married, but got headaches and consequently decided not to continue. She is a relative who is also modern orthodox and whose husband really didn’t care either way. I don’t know if I feel comfortable calling her regarding this, because we don’t really keep in touch except maybe once a year. But if really want me to, I might consider doing it, because she is really nice.

Plonis: Glad to hear it 😉

If you are asked to go outside unexpectedly, and need to put on tights, it may be best if you do not frame the issue as a tznius one, but instead say, “I’m more comfortable wearing tights”. To add to this, maybe instead just say, “I’m coming right away! I just need to go to the bathroom first!” You don’t have to necessarily tell them it’s to put on your tights!

But I also think what SJSinNYC says makes sense, too. However, that kind of conversation really should be a private one between you and your parents, not in front of others. And you have to really be careful how you speak to them. Don’t make it sound like you are putting their standards down or that you are better than them. You will just get an angry or defensive response from them. The emphasis needs to be on working things out between the two issues. For example, “Ma, Ta, can we talk about this? I really want to help you and I also really want to keep this kabbalah that I made. How can we work this out?” A respectful tone will also be important in that type of conversation.

plonisalmonis: Have you discussed your kabbalah of wearing tights with your parents? I mean, are they aware of what you have taken on for yourself? If not, then I would talk about it with them first.

But if they are not sympathetic to this, then I would say this to you: The mitzvah of kibbud av v’aim is a d’oraisa, and what you have taken on yourself seems to be a chumrah. IMHO, if it comes down to a conflict between the two, I believe that listening to parents takes precedent over your chumrah. However, you know that it is not necessarily a one-or-the-other proposition. The real issue is (get ready for a dose of emes and if you don’t want to hear it, stop reading right here) you feeling lazy and then using your kabbalah as an excuse not to do what they want. So if you want to keep both, I would take the advice of SJSinNYC, ames, or anon for this, above.

Hope that helps and you’re still “talking” to me after this!

The Yated had a nice article about tznius on page 48 in the “Parsha For Those in the Parsha” column. It’s called “Dating Tznius”. If you get the Yated or can pick it up I thought it made some nice points. If you can’t get the Yated I will summarize the main idea.

Basically, the author, R’ Yoni Posnik who together with his wife does shidduchim, says that sometimes when they set up a date it comes out that the boy “did not feel comfortable continuing to go out with someone who displayed a lack of sensitivity in the area of tznius – whether accidentally/unthinkingly or not.”

He also cites the Gemara in Maseches Sotah (quoting R’ Yitzchak Goldwasser) where it says, “They pair a woman with a man according to his deeds.” On the words according to his deeds, Rashi says, “A tznuah to a tzaddik and a prutzah to a rasha”. The point being that “the determining factor for women regarding their virtuous standing or lack thereof is their meticulousness in this crucial area of tznius.”

The author ends by saying, “According to our level, that is the partner we will marry and the kind of home we will build. In the merit of our tznius, may we merit partners of the highest caliber!”

This information is obviously valuable to all of our singles and to any parents whose children are “in the parsha”.

Tzippi: “Tznius, it’s either do or die”

Thank you, smalltowngirl.

OK, I guess I’ll start with an example of my own:

While I usually wear socks or stockings when I go out of the house, I was in the habit of making a few exceptions. An example of this was when my son’s bus would come early in the morning, picking him up from my house to take him to school. I would never go out in a robe, even early in the morning (while in some neighborhoods in NY this might be acceptable, I am not comfortable with it), but I would sometimes save myself some time by skipping the socks/stockings even though I was completely dressed in every other way. I rationalized that no one was around that early in the morning…well, almost no one…And the bus driver wasn’t noticing my ankles anyway, epecially since I usually wear long skirts…

Well, before Yom Kippur, I resolved to always wear socks/stockings even if it is only to step out of the house to take out the garbage or to walk my child to the bus. I know this is something small, but I think it’s a step in the right direction!

Mods: Thank you for you support of the support group! Ames, will you do the honors?

Ames: Thank you for the suggestion, but I am not sure what the purpose of such a thread would be.

Would women post when they feel they have done something positive? But something positive for me may sound silly to you. For example, I heard recently about someone who decided to take on something small with her tznius. She decided to put her sheitel on only in the bathroom every time. Maybe someone would feel this is dumb, pass such a comment, and then no one would be willing to post that type of thing again.

Bemused: Amein, and thank you.

I am trying at the suggestion of “anon for this” to keep my tone more positive.

If I feel that the thread is backfiring, I might just end up taking your suggestion. But I am hoping like Shlomo hamelech says, “Hamayim kapanim l’panim”, people will see that I am coming from a sincere place and they will respond accordingly.

Anon for this: Thank you for your words and for your suggestion. Please let me know if you see an improvement in my tone, and also let me know if you feel I ever step over the line in the opposite direction!

BTW, I do try to be careful in the way I dress, but nobody’s perfect and I have what to improve on, as well. Lest anyone think that I am only looking outward and complaining/condemning, I am trying to be introspective and improve in whatever areas of tznius that I can, as well. We could all use the zchusim for whatever difficulties in life Hashem has chosen to grant us.

Jewess: I don’t mean to be argumentative (or maybe I do), but I don’t think you are seeing things from my perspective. So let me help you out in that area.

Let’s say we are talking about someone named Leah (just a Jewish name picked out of a hat). And Leah went to Bais Yaakov of Who-Knows-Where. And she has been taught all her years in BYW that we are frum Jews. And as a frum female, it is incumbent upon us to dress in a way which we call tznius. And part of tznius is defined as (let’s just stick to the basics) wearing skirts covering your knees at all times in public, tops with sleeves covering your elbows and collar covering the collar bone. Let’s say that Leah grows up and she is no longer in BY anymore, but still lives in the same community. She is shopping for clothes and she wants to look good. She loves this cute outfit, but the length doesn’t quite cover the knee and it’s a bit too tight. If she chooses to buy it, her friends and neighbors, who all went to BY or Yeshiva of Who-Knows-Where, will see her wearing it.

Don’t you think if Leah buys and wears that outfit for all to see, she is making a statement? I will answer my own question: Yes, she is.

What I am trying to figure out is “Why does Leah, born and bred in a frum family, having gone to a BY, wear an oufit she knows is questionable as far as tznius goes?”

Jewess, I have a feeling you are talking about a completely different scenario.

I think that sometimes it’s jealousy that makes some women hate the way that others dress. They may be jealous that somebody else looks good, or they may be jealous that somebody else is dressed in clothing they wish they could wear themselves.

This may be true of others, but it is not true of me. Why should I care if someone else looks good? If she looks good, I compliment her!

You want to know why this bothers me so much? Because my husband, who is the most temimus-dik guy, who doesn’t even notice if a woman is 8 mos. pregnant, who turns away immediately if we happen to pass a not-tznius billboard – he is noticing and commenting in surprise and perplexity on what he is seeing in our area. Now, if my husband has noticed something wrong, it is as obvious as a sledge hammer blow.

I am not the tznius police! I say nothing to my neighbors who dress in short/tight/clingy clothes. But inside I am dismayed and saddened for them. Is it wrong of me to want to raise the level of tznius in my area? Why would you discourage me from doing so?

cherrybim: Unfortunately, we live in the real world, where we interact with all types of people. So if my neighbor decides to come to shul wearing a too-short, too-tight, outfit, which I am embarrassed to look at, let alone someone’s husband, what do you suggest? Praise her for her “bein adom l’chavero”? Compliment her style?

Or my choice: Ignore her style of dress and hope that she realizes that she, as a frum woman, has more value than what she is showing to the world?