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Just because America is a bigger country with more people in it doesn’t mean that there have to be more singles. I’m talking about a ratio of singles:population here, and that ratio in America is higher. The majority of girls in England are married by 23, with only a small number of girls from any graduating class not married by even 25.
I think that the biggest factor blocking the age issue from being more widespread in America is the attitude that the boys are not mature enough. In England, it is normal for a bochur to enter the shidduch system at age 21. So why do Americans insist on keeping the boys until they’re older? Granted there are older girls in England who are still waiting but I wouldn’t call it a crisis. I know way more American singles than English ones.
The story is 100% true
I would think it was offensive because if you call someone or something retarded you are equating them or it with those who are mentally handicapped.
Batsheva is just easier to pronounce.
True story-a boy and girl were on a first shidduch. The girl introduced herself as Baskoh. He told her his name was Kelikoku (Eliyohu). They didn’t get married.
Is this before or after the wedding? Cause the wedding ring should be plain
If frum women are going to do it, they should at least switch to a tichel first.
No, just that capitalisation makes proper nouns and standard nouns separate from each other.
So ask an Israeli if they sometimes get mixed up between proper nouns and regular words, then you’ll have your answer
oyyoyyoy – have you ever been pregnant and then given birth? Cause I have, and I’ve never found out because I like the surprise. I don’t call it delayed gratification, because the feeling I get after giving birth and seeing whether it’s a boy or a girl is just amazing. It just completes the whole birth experience for me.
Oomis, I never noticed, so I doubt anyone else did
You have no way of knowing if the bris will be on time, though. And once a boy is born, you do have a week to make travel arrangments.
I personally don’t find out. I enjoy the surprise, it makes having gone through the birth much more worthwhile when I look down and find out – I have two girls by the way, and for my third (BEZ”H) I still haven’t found out! If it’s another girl, I will be excited, and if it’s a boy, I will be excited.
B’shaa tova! I told my close friends when I was just passing the first trimester, and other friends once I was already showing.
As for boy/girl, I don’t find out myself but if I did I probably wouldn’t tell. Not even my parents.
Where’s the contradiction? Plenty of people living in the frummest communities in Manchester make good parnassa. As for babysitting, do you mean daycare? I know of plenty of people that run playgroups in their houses, but in England in general you have to be careful because if a non-Jewish neighbour or someone decides they don’t like you they can inform the council that you are running a non-approved playgroup in your house, and you can get closed down. Officially, people who run a playgroup in their house need to be registered/qualified (although a lot of people still do it.
As for communities, there are yeshivish, balabatish and chassidish in Manchester so take your pick.
chayav – no amount of dating can really let you ‘know’ the person before you actually get married to them and live with them. However, if they like each other well enough and they feel that they are capable of moving together in the same direction towards the same goals in life and raising a family, that is easily knowable by the third date. I was recently reading an anecdote from a book by a well-known rebetzen where she talks of a couple that had been happily dating for two years, yet as soon as they married their relationship went downhill.
The real fools are those who think that dating needs to take a long time for them to know if this is the right person for them to marry – if all the correct research is done beforehand, it doesn’t really need to drag out.
You’re starting in a few weeks and you are asking such questions?
1. I assume facilities means bed, shower, toilets, cupboard space. What other facilities do you mean?
2. Not sure about kitchen use, I never went there.
3. Courses include hairdressing, IT, graphics, art, etc.
4. You think sem locks you in? Course you can go out shopping in your free time. As for places to eat – you’re coming to Gateshead and you think there are restaurants to go out and eat? There’s takeaway but nowhere to sit in.
5. As far as I know, the food is pretty good.
6. Basic timetable – shiurim in the morning, courses in the afternoon and shiruim after supper.
7. Shabbos eat in sem unless someone invites you out.
If the soldiers in the ground operation were in true civilian territory, then why are there so many dead soldiers? That’s a very high number of soldiers killed for waging war against ‘civilians’.
There was another story going round that R’ Chaim told someone they could make a chasuna during the 9 days because there won’t be any this year. These stories are very damaging and I think that such a gadol would be highly upset if he heard them.
Streek, thanks for that! That’s exactly the superficiality I was talking about.
Being real, my brother was once one of those boys who travelled distances, only to be told “no thanks” after one date. After losing count of how many girls he met, his wife actually came to meet him when they were going out. Their age difference is 6 years. When he started shidduchim she was still in high school. That’s what I meant when saying that whilst in the system it is hard, but there’s a reason for having to wait.
Being real – I do know many people who were in the system for a while. I know all the frustrations they experienced after crossing off yet another name, and the understanding they reached when they finally did meet the right one. I still think there is an approach that people have to the system which is causing it to be less effective. For instance, the problem is far worse in America than it is in England. Additionally, some circles (such as Chassidim) do not have the same problem with shidduchim as other circles. So perhaps this does go to show that the conservative method of shidduchim does work better, and therefore does not need change. What has possibly gone wrong here is that new ideas have been introduced into the shidduch process, and also some very superficial thinking from prospective parents-in-law or even the boy/girl themselves. Unfortunately, much of this superficiality has come from the culture that surrounds us today.
Being real: you have no idea who I am and therefore you cannot make assumptions about me not being out of the box based on one comment I wrote. I am very much out of the box. My point was that the system works when it is done properly. It is not, as you say, “broken”.
Speed dating is a non-Jewish idea, and frankly, the idea of going to a speed dating session to spend three minutes each on twenty guys appalls me. I am thankfully no longer in shidduchim, but there is a reason why we have the formal shidduch process, and when it’s done with the proper hashkafos it works.
As for your comment about ‘wasting precious years’ – first of all, if it’s the right one, then there’s a reason you had to wait. There is also a mindset. For example, I don’t get why Americans call it ‘dating’. Dating to me means going out with a girl/boy you like without any real thought about commitment. Call it ‘going on a shidduch’ and it’s easier to tune into the real reason why we go out with a girl/boy.
Francorachel, the best thing we can do is daven. Debating the situation on the CR won’t help much.
Would love to, but like I said, it’s a bit of a long walk…
I wasn’t attacking you. Also it should be pretty clear from my posting history that I am female. Unless that was a typo…
Dy it’s a long way from anchorage to gateshead.
Popa, my father does make early shabbos as well, actually.
DY, I realise you’re trying to mediate here, but actually I wasn’t questioning how popa can’t make early shabbos; this whole tangent started because popa was expressing his annoyance at being invited out to families who make early shabbos (and early shabbos in general), and I was trying to explain why some people do make early shabbos.
DY, I was not making that assumption. I was merely trying to point out that making early shabbos is sometimes a necessity (such as Gateshead) and somehow this whole thread turned into why some people live in the real world and others apparently don’t.
Popa, my father works IN business, and on Fridays he works at home because otherwise he wouldn’t get to leave the office until five minutes before shabbos – is that an option for you? I’m really trying to be open-minded and I really am NOT clueless (the opposite, actually) but for some reason people don’t get that.
DY – your comment “The point is that a person should not think that the world is limited to his/her experiences” is exactly what I was trying to make when asking Popa to stop welcoming me to the real world.
I’m not assuming anything. And I know the business world very well. Like I said, my father works in business and my husband runs his own business. You clearly haven’t been paying attention. I am neither clueless nor lacking empathy. Most of my friends’ husbands also work in business and put in extremely long hours. So yes, I know many people who work crazy hours in the business world. You are the one making assumptions.
You have a variety of schools and shuls for different levels of orthodoxy in both the broughton park and prestwich areas. Depends on where you would like to fit in with and I could give you some better details
Please could you stop saying welcome to the real world. It’s getting tired and pointless. Many people are employees just like you.
Like I said, I do live in the real world. That is a very lazy and pointless way to try and refute someone else’s argument and makes no valid point of your own. You have not actually given us any examples or details of why such a job as the one you might have would not let you finish work at a normal time on a Friday, you just keep on repeating ‘welcome to the real world’, thereby implying that only your life is considered to be the real world and dismissing the fact that others may work just as hard, long hours but still give Friday afternoon the proper respect it deserves. There is a very important inyan of being ready for shabbos by chatzos on Friday, and whilst this may be unrealistic for many in the working world, it is still possible to finish work before plag on a Friday afternoon. If I worked for someone who insisted that I work until 7pm on Friday (as you imply – correct me if this is not the case)I would leave the job. Whilst I understand that this may not be an option for you, I still feel that unless someone works in some place like a hospital, Friday afternoon shifts SHOULD be negotiable, especially in a place that lauds human rights such as the USA.
Wasn’t America the country where people got fired every Friday afternoon because of shabbos? I find it hard to believe that your boss would fire you if you told him you wanted to finish work at 5pm on Friday in the summer.
Are you assuming that because I live in Gateshead that I am a typical kollel/chinuch wife who has come from a typical kollel family?
I come from a normal, working family, my father works very long hours and is often home late. My husband works extremely hard in his business and is often home late. He is also often working through the night (he is a self-employed business owner) or waking up at 3am to do paperwork that he has no time for during the day. So, yes, I know how late some people work.
In the winter, people finish work early to make shabbos – why not in the summer as well, just because shabbos is later and it seems manageable to do a complete normal work day on Friday?
Midwesterner – your point about krias shema is a good one. However there are many minyanim here which do a mincha/maariv just after plag and then all my husband needs to do is say shema again when he goes to bed. However, if you’re talking about a shabbos meal, let me give you a practical example:
Plag last week – 7.58 – this is what time I lit.
By the time my husband was home from shul it was just before 9. We made kiddush almost straight away.
Shkia was still after 10pm, so that is more than the 50 minutes you proposed, and more than 100 minutes between plag and shkia.
Nightfall was 11.16pm.
Any more comments?
Popa, let’s rephrase Sam’s question with slightly different wording; a few weeks ago, even ‘early’ shabbos in Gateshead was at 8.30. Do you really not finish work before then?
In New York, 8.30 is about the time regular shabbos comes in anyway. So perhaps in NY making early shabbos is not a necessity, but like you said a luxury. However, in Gateshead basically everyone brings in early shabbos in the summer, since regular time is just too late.
geordie, are you seriously trying to say that here in Gateshead you would be happy to make shabbos with shkia? Don’t you think even making early shabbos is already quite late?
No, but try living in a place where, in midsummer, shkia is after 10pm and shabbos can go out at 11.30pm, and then you can wonder why we choose to bring in shabbos with plag. It means not starting the friday night meal at midnight, which is hard enough to do just for shavuos.Just out of interest, where do you live and what’s the latest time for shkia in the summer?
Popa, in some parts of the world, making shabbos normal time would mean lighting candles at 9.30 or later in the summer. So we make early shabbos (with plag hamincha, which means lighting at 8pm the latest).
I am of the opinion that the meal should be started straight away – as jbaldy said, many people are hungry. As I tell my husband, everyone can talk as much as they like after kiddush and challa, but some of us are waiting to eat.
As someone who lives in England (grew up in Manchester and lives in Gateshead) let me correct zahavasdad, who uses his one-time visit to London to give the impression that he knows England.
London is NOT the be-all of England and therefore Gateshead being 300 miles away from it does not mean that it is out in the sticks. Gateshead is very near to a lot of things, like Scotland, which is only an hour away and is some of the most beautiful British countryside, and also right next to the Lake District, which is also stunning. We are only a two-hour drive from Manchester.
As for being compared to Lakewood – no comparison except that it is a major yeshiva centre. The schools, shuls, shops and other amenities are all very close by and it is a warm community where most people know each other (I saw most because the community is rapidly growing).
Manchester is a very large community with very diverse kehillas; secular, modern, chareidi and yeshivish. The two main frum areas are Broughton Park (Salford) and Prestwich, and they are walkable distance from each other. There are kosher shops in both areas, plus schools and shuls, of which there are many!
London has a few areas, so you will need to look into them yourself but I would like to correct the assertion that Golders Green is mainly MO. (Actually, many of the London girls who come to Gateshead Sem are from GG). There is a more modern community in Golders Green, but there is an equally large charedi and some chassidish area there as well. I could say the same about Hendon, and also about Edgeware. Stamford Hill is mostly chassidish but it also has a large sefardi community. If you are ok with driving a lot in order to get to places such as work and school, then that’s ok, since many of the schools and businesses will not necessarily be close to where you live, if you choose London.
If you have specific questions, I would be happy to answer them but this post is going to get rather long!
How about me, and justmyhapence?
Like I said earlier, I’m sure Rav Falk cites sources in his book.
Oomis, I was merely trying to point out why a snowsuit might be permitted for certain situations, such as skiing. In no way do I agree that that means that wearing non form-showing trousers is therefore also permitted. And nor do I mean that a girl should decide she can take up skiing as a regular hobby or sport so she can wear a snowsuit.
It’s like the heter with showing hair at the front – a specific ruling was given by R’ Moshe for a very specific sheila and it has somehow been twisted to become a worldwide ‘accepted’ ruling.
A girl who respected herself and the image she gives across would not even ask questions about ‘who says that this is assur?’ – as FNY said, this comes from pettiness.
Just noticed my new subtitle. Thanks, Mods! I think that one sums me up better…
so glad you like it! -29
Wearing a snowsuit for something like skiing is allowed since a person can’t really go skiing without one. However they are so bulky that the form of the legs is not really distinguishable any more, they just look like two big chunks.
However most people do not wear them as everyday wear, and a ruling for such a situation would NOT therefore allow women to wear leggings or trousers without the skirt on top as a matter of course.