Non Political

@SH

This story is not the mesora we have in Lubavitch of the meeting between the Gra and Baal HaTanya, (as I discussed earlier in this thread) but rather the version that Rav YB Soleveitchik had received in his family, being a descendant of the Gra.

Considering that this is a “family mesorah” one would expect it to be well know among the Brisk Rabbonim, Roshai Yeshiva, and their Talmidim.

Also, why are you making a personal attack against Rabbi Berger? Is it because he came out against certain elements in Lubavich? As you are well aware there are many Rabbonim who did (do) the same. Among them Gedolim whose reputation and scholarship is beyond reproach.

I cannot comment on whether Rabbi Berger is a Talmud Chocham or not. Never spoke to him, read his articles, or heard his lectures. I did read his book. In it he expressed:
1) His great admiration for the Lubavicher Rebbe
2) His concern for the direction certain elements within Chabbad where headed which he saw as deviations of the Lubavicher Rebbes teachings
4) His conviction that more needs to be done by the Agudah and RCA Rabbionim to
A. Publicly come out against those deviant elements
B. Strengthen the Rabbonim in Chabbad who where fighting these deviations.

@Rso

it certainly turned into CS and a few others trying to explain to non-lubavitchers why they should believe or at least accept the possibility that the lubavitcher rebbe is moshiach.

Where has CS done that? She said it was rational for her and other Lubavichers to accept the teaching of their Rebbe.

Based on one of her earlier posts I suspect she would agree with your understanding of Emuna though…

@Rso

It is eminently reasonable to rely on your Rav. There is actually an issur of מהרהר אחר רבו.

If you are questioning the rationality or what CS believes your questio does not start for the above reason.

Are you questioning the status of the Lubavitcher Rebbe as a reliable source? If so, please share your standard for establishing reliability?

Sorry for the patronizing tone in the previous post. It was uncalled for.

Rso,

Your question really is not that spectacularly difficult to answer. As a matter of fact it doesn’t even get off the ground. I will explain why, listen (read) carefully.

If someone where to attack any of the basic yesodos of our emuna (let’s say an academic bible scholor attacks our belief that Torah is min HaShamayim). He would then challenge us to a debate on the condition that we cannot bring any Jewish sources to support our position. What would you think of his condition? Would you accept it? I hope you wouldn’t. It is not a reasonable stipulation. Our response (provided we where inclined to agree to such a debate) would be that any evidence to our position is acceptable provided that such a category of evidence is generally deemed reliable. The teaching of ones Rebbiem is a category of evidence generally deemed reliable in Klal Yisroel. So…

Unless you can show that:
1. There was a concensus of all (or most) of Gedolai Yisroel that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is not to be relied upon

Or

2. That she is misrepresenting what he said

You have no question.

CS and SH are you still intending to reply to the points I raised in my previous posts?

Re: Rational basis for Moshichists

Th position that the Rebbe IS Moshiach even after he was niftar is not defensible however. There is not a shred of positive evidence for this position therefore asking to bring bring Halachic proof against it is completely besides the point. The premise that it is legitimate to hold such a belief undermines the very fabric of the Halachic process itself

1. The rebuilding of Yeshivos, Baitai Chinuch, and Bais Yaacov’s is no less an expression of Avavas Yisroel for every Yid then sending Shluchim. It was (and is) and disagreement regarding what you is the best meathod of Harbatzas Torah.

2. Demanding Halachic proofs against Mashichist beliefs is besides the point. If you make an error regarding a Halacha in Shulchan Aruch or Ramabam that’s one thing. But let’s say you believe in something for which there is no direct positive evidence and insist that it is your religious duty to believe so based on personal feelings, revelations, miricles, etc. You have just legitimized the revelation narrative of every world religion and cult.

3. I take personal offense at the statement made by CS that the Vilna Gaon saw the Alter Rebbe of Lubavich through a key hole, realized that if he would meet him he would have become a chossid and ran away. But this is just a symptom of the above stated problem.

Zahavasdad wrote “Because of the actions of Rabbi Zecharia ben Avkolos (The Godol at that time) the temple was destroyed”

My point exactly. After all even the Senhedrin HaGadol could err (see first Mishnah in Horiyos). So what we learn from this is that since it is possible that Gedolim can err, especially errors of such great magnitude in matters of such importance to Klal Yisroel the logical solution is to just ignore them altogether. Come to think of it who says the ma’atikai ha shmuah got it right, and maybe the navi’im also misinterpreted their nevuah. So who knows what the truth is anyway, it’s all relative. So everyone should just do what “feels right” and “makes sense”. Let’s just go back to the drawing board and set up a society based on the enduring, timeless values of western democracy, humanism and rational self interest.

There are 2 issues here

1) Pushing people away. This is a very real issue and a difficult tightrope to toe. Consider that Timna was pushed away by our Avos Avracham an Yitchok. Obviously they had very good reasons for pushing her away – and yet from the gemmara (Senhedrin and Rashi there)it is clear that we are still suffering for this. Any decision that effects a yiddish neshamah has to be made with the requisite fear and awe – sadly this is not always the case.

2) The continued fable that people who choose an assimilationist life-style and publicly trample on clear-cut halacha somehow have rebbonim they rely on that sanction this. This creates much confusion for many people who naivly belive that this is just another machlokes between legitamite opinions.

Menachem Melamid – Still waiting to see the name of gedolim and poskim who say that knees and elbows do not need to be covered.

Statements based on wishful thinking with nothing whatsoever to back them up only serve to cloud the issue when it is indeed clear cut.