Non Political

@ username

Your examples of against Halacha are interesting

“There’s no debate that early Chassidim Davened late (after Zman Tefilla),

I’m sure you are aware of the cheter to finish after the zman if one started before (Shulchan Aruch HaRav based on a Tosafos).

“many other communities didn’t sleep in a Sukkah.”

Right, because either:
1) It was to cold (mitztayer)
2) The men were married and the wives didn’t go to the Sukah (k’ain t’diru)

“Or, as I pointed out earlier, many Litvish Yeshivas do a Heicha Kedusha.”

They have Tephila b’tzibur and Kidusha. You don’t like R’ Yaacov’s pshat? It’s a lot less of a chiddush then the Shulchan Aruch HaRav I cited above. Furthermore, this case is off the subject. The Rabbonim instituted the practice you are objecting to, they are not coming to justify it expo facto.

I’m surprised you didn’t bring up eating inside the house on shmini sufake shvi’i in chutz l’aretz as an example.

So, here is a question for you. What do you think all of the above cases have in common? Hint: It isn’t that we get to twist Halacha into a pretzel to justify minhagim.

@ username

“I’m not saying your falling short. I’m saying that there’s a debate over the Shiur of one’s respect to their Rov/Rebbe.”

1) No, you said Chabbad has more respect for their Rebbe.
2) But nevermind that. In what way do you have more respect for your Rebbe?

@ Username

“This is actually quite funny. I wrote “while Litvishers respect the Gedolim almost as much as Lubavich” and got attacked from both sides. One side (Syag) was quite upset that I dared hint that you respect your Gedolim less than we respect the Rebbe. At the same time, I was corrected from the other side, saying that there’s a fundamental difference between our view of the Rebbe and your view of your Gedolim.”

What’s funny? Both are true.

1) K-Cup pointed out that:
a) In the Litvishe world we do not have “Rebbes” as you understand them. And…
b) It is an accepted aspect of the halachic due process for competent poskim to disagree with their predecessors. I can excuse CSs superficial quote of the Rambam and Chinuch to support her position but you should know better. Even a cursory reading of the poskim on this matter would be sufficient for this. judging from your posts that is well within your abilities. I called K-Cup out on the tone of the post not the content.

You say Syag’s was “upset”? You made a blanket statement that in Litvishe and Non Chabbad Chassidish circles the respect accorded Gedolim is less than in Chabbad. Honoring a Talmid Chochom in general and ones Rov in particular is a Mitzvah with halachos. Claiming that all of Klal Yisroel outside Chabad somehow falls short is completely out of line.

@SH

“וכן בכל דור ודור יש ראשי אלפי ישראל”

You do notice the plural ראשי as in “heads of” not singular ראש “head of”

So how is this a support for the Nossi HaDor concept exactly?

@ K-Cup

“A Gadol is NOT AT ALL a “litvisher Rebbe”.

This is true (although not so sure about some of the Brisker chevra). Just realize that there are positives and negatives that go along with it.

The Litvish community is good at saying “This part of what Gadol X said is wrong” and just cuts it out, ignores it. It’s very common”

“Is wrong…cuts it out…ignores it!! I don’t know any competent talmidei chachamim who would take such a cavalier attitude towards the words of the Chofetz Chaim or the Chazon Ish.

I was gonna respond to chossid but RSo pretty much nailed it.

CS, I really would like some names. You know, of rabbanim who are considered gedolim by anyone outside your circle who agree with you guys. You said there where many, please share.

Also, still kinda scratching my head in wonderment regarding your contention that only the last Lubavitcher Rebbe did for all of Klal Yisroel whereis the the Gedolim only did for their respective kahilos.

@ CS

Once again you have written that only the Rebbe exerted himself for all yidden whereis other Rabbonim are merely taking care of their own kahillos. You use this to prop up the nossi hador concept.

@ CS

“By gedolim who are you referring to?”

“One thing I’ve learned on this forum is that the kinds of things the Rebbe said and did etc weren’t normal as in other Rebbe’s don’t speak or behave that way. And I guess that’s given me a deeper understanding of how a Nossi hador is different.”

You know very well who the Gedolim where / are. The point is that outside of your stream of Lubavitch no Rabbonim (including Chabbad ones) endorse what you guys do / believe. Also (and more importantly) , none of the Rebbonim in your circle are recognized as authoritative by any Torah Authority outside. By the standards you yourself purport to embrace this should give you pause.

CS,

If NO Gedolim outside of you circle agree with
1) your beliefs and practices (the ones under discussion)
2) you interpretation of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe’s teachings and classic sources to justify the above
Don’t you think that per your own standards it is time to re-evaluate?

@tfaceburn

Would you be willing to share why when you left Chabbad you didn’t go over to the chevra SH is a part of?

@ Chossid

“you don’t ky what a Rebbe is”

Sure we do.

” you got to have real evidence and rayes. Not just relying on what you hear.”

Right. I have been saying this all along.

“And besides the point who are we to argue, in order for someone to have a shita against chabad you need to somewhat be equivalent to a Rebbe or a godel.”

There where plenty Gedolim who did just that
.
“All I see is that most of the world holds that the Rebbe was a tzadik and made miracles for everyone, and had ruach hakidesh.”

Didn’t you just say before that one has to be a Gadol to have a daiya. I think you will be hard pressed to show evidence that MOST Gedolim hold of the above claim.

“So you need to have big plaitzes to say against his tzidkus.”

Who on this post (or previous posts) “said against his tzidkus”? There certainly where Gedolim with more than adequate sized plaitzes who did, and some posters may have cited their words.

You also asked if I learn the Ramchal’s chassidus or am only bringing him up for political reasons

1) As I pointed out earlier the Ramchal predates what you call chassidus. Are you asking me if I learn the Ramchal’s works on Chachmas HaEmes?
2) Did you notice my handle, I’m “non-political” 🙂

@ Sayag

“Me hoffinger- “Sinus Chinum’ destroyed one of the Beis HaMikdashes.
So, ‘misnagdisher Jews’ enjoy trying to stamp out light.”

So are you conscious enough to see the inaneness of your juxtaposed statements.”

Inane? It makes perfect sense:
Misnagdisher Jews = Followers of Emmanuel Goldstein

@ Avi K

“who says that they are entitled”

The government says so.

Does the current system of entitlements create a disincentive to work because a higher income means losing programs and ending up with less disposable income? Yes it does. Economists call this the poverty trap.

Is there a moral / ethical imperative to do so anyways? Maybe so. It really depends on the specific circumstances of each individual’s situation. Self sufficiency is certainly very commendable but it is not the pinnacle in our hierarchy of values. There was a place where self sufficiency did occupy such a position it was called Sdom.

Does taking government entitlements transgress a prohibition for those who qualify. Nope.

@ TT

You should be zocheh to the Light of Chassidus

שמים חושך לאור ואור לחושך…

Re: the whole Tanya on top of other seforim thing

SH called it a Hergesh. From a point of view of hergish it makes sense to me. But then he wrote in a subsequent post that it has to do with the heligness of the sefer which seems to be m’gala milta lmafreah that hergish doesn’t really mean hergish. But this is ok too. You guys who don’t get it just haven’t mastered doublethink.

Welfare programs are an income based entitlement. There is plenty of gravy for our friends at the other end of the economic spectrum. The fact that this squeezes the middle class and creates a “poverty trap” is a problem for the boys and girls in the public policy / legislative sector (and the economists that advise them).

@ CS

“Now if every other Torah leader says his chiddushim are migale panim baTorah shelo kahalacha, then that clues his own followers in that something is wrong…And yah I know you’re (as in the collective you) are going to jump on that.”

On the contrary, I for one, think that is an excellent answer. Definitely in the right ballpark.

It’s just that you put in two qualifications that sorta leave an eye of the needle opening big enough for an elephant to fit through

Qualification 1: “EVERY other Torah leader”

1) Avi Weiss is still a card carrying member of the RCA
2) Even with Lev Tahor, its not like the Gedolim all got together and issued a public joint statement regarding them. Worse then that, there was a frum publication with a Rabbinical Advisory Board that ran an article supporting them.

Qualification 2:
“there’s also shivim panim laTorah and there’s a difference between going against the letter or spirit of Torah (such as women reading from the Torah etc) and something that is merely an unconventional or unusual position to take.

Next

“Another indicator is that when borderline chiddushim lead to outright actions against Torah, as a natural progression of the whole, (as we have seen with the OO and now Lev Tahor in contemporary times) it shows that the questionable original chiddushim were wrong.

This would not work as an indicator because the people in the group won’t see it as being against the Torah. That is also the problem with the 2nd qualification above.

I would also suggest that it is appropriate to ask how the Gedolim regard the leader and his followers. I think one would be hard pressed to find Gedolim who would give the above individuals the time of day.

@ CS

“Here you find many regular yidden whose “hisnagdus” is mostly due to ignorance (of classic sources on moshiach and Geula, of the Halachos on how to treat a Rebbe etc etc) and most of them are not even misnagdim in any way at all, just fellow frum yidden.”

That’s quite a condescending statement. I find it personally offensive and I’m sure other posters on this thread do as well.

You should know that Muslims have a similar position. One of their proofs for Islam is that anyone who knows Arabic and can therefore read and understand the Koran will see clearly that it is a work of prophecy. Anyone who does not accept it as such is either a) doesn’t understand it or b) is a willing infidel.

I’m NOT chv”sh comparing you to a muslim. I AM comparing your statement and their “proof”.

@ NCB

“but why, of all places, did you decide to come in at this point and defend that alleged statemen

I wasn’t defended that statement chv”sh. The statement as a whole is indefensible because:

1) It claims the Rebbe is Moshiach
2) It addresses a whole segment of Yidden with a derogatory name

I was merely providing the context wherein the part of the statement which appears to be a glaringly irreconcilable stira can be made to shtim.

@ DY

“That’s not putting it into context, that’s distorting it beyond recognition.”

I prefer to look at it as a slight nip tuck, with professionally applied make up.

@SH

“I assume you know that so why are you asking the question”

It wasn’t a question

@ CS

“Gerrer Rebbe, Baba Sali and reb zusia for example weren’t involved with writing halacha (as far as I know) and were still seen as tzaddikim..This shows that the criterion here is not a specific list – just he is known and trusted to Torah true Jews by his behaviour etc.

This is true. Another example would be the Ramchal, we don’t have Halachic works from him. One could even point out that there was a strong opposition to him by other leading sages during his lifetime (a cherem on certain works even).

You are right that the list of 3 criteria wasn’t meant as a check list per se, it’s not that you need “all of the above” and davka these 3. You asked me what I would consider objective criteria for determining who is a Gadol and I gave 3 examples. However what they have in common is not “he is known and trusted to Torah true Jews by his behaviour etc”. Rather the common denominator is the seriousness with which other Rabbonim take his Torah.

Next point

“Also yes Torah true adherents add value. We see that ain melech blo am, and the Kings of today are the Rabbonim and Torah leaders. If someone tells you so and so is a Rebbe and he has two chassidim, you will think less of him than a Rebbe who has a thousand, because the fact that a thousand Torah true yidden have chosen him to inspire and guide their Avodas Hashem gives him more credence.”

The ARI HaKadosh, The RMCH”L, the GR”A and the BSH”T had a small number of direct Talmidim. No one considers them less of a Rebbe because of this.

Next Point

“And lastly by learning their Torah we see what kind of person or Torah great they were. Like the Or Hachaim for example”

Not necessarily. The learner has to be competent to evaluate.

@ Random3X

“There have been many known tzaddikim who did not meet all of those criteria”

I didn’t say one needed to meet ALL of the criteria

@ CS
“how bout you tell me what the criteria are for establishing who are the tzadikim?”

For starters here are some things to look for:
1) He is regarded as a Gadol b’Torah by the Gedolim already established as such. This means that they give serious weight to his opinion in their own Halachic rulings*.
2) His Torah is studied widely in Yeshivos and Kollelim
3) Community Rebbeim (of various communities) turn to this person with there own shailos

As a postscript to point 1, I would point out that things like addressing him with honorary titles, speaking his praises, attending his levaya, being a Rosh Yeshiva in his yeshiva, ect. doesn’t cut it.

I also want to stress that the subject was never “establishing who the Tzadikim are. The discussion was who is a Gadol B’Yisroel. Nevertheless we can be certain that such a person is a Tzadik and if someone would wish to claim otherwise the burden to bring compelling evidence would be on them to substantiate their claim.

One more thing. The above is useful for determining who is a Gadol. As far as determining who is “THE Gadol” even Shmuel HaNavi couldn’t do that without prophecy.

@ CS

“Lubavitch was the only Torah outreach movement. (Not anymore today bh)”

I have a different perspective on this point.

After the war most of the Gedolim in E”Y and America where focusing on rebuilding Yeshivos and Beis Yaacovs. This is very much in line with the priorities expressed by ריב”ז when he famously asked for Yavneh and it’s scholars. This was a two pronged project. (1) The establishment of major Torah centers and (2) the establishment of day schools and later kollelim in many “out of town” communities. Their efforts where blessed with tremendous success and today we are all the beneficiaries of their foresight and mesiras nefesh.
I think you would be hard pressed to demonstrate that the last Lubavitcher Rebbes shlichus initiative had a greater overall impact on Klal Yisroel.

But I digress. I will be happy to address the other question shortly.

@ CS

“Np by your reasoning, Eliyahu hanavi and har hacarmel would have never happened. We have a clear mitzva of listening to our chachamim which was applied then (source Rambam Sefer hamitzvos:) If someone is known to you to be a tzadik, then you follow everything he says, EVEN IF he tells you to temporarily stop doing a mitzvah.”

Not sure what you mean. My point was what criteria we use for determining who is a Tzadik. Nothing in my post contradicts that one follows the hora’ah shah of an established leader of the generation.

Next

Me: “The determination is not made based on the number of adherents. For example, the Karaites outnumbered traditional Yidden in many communities for a not insignificant period of time. The Rambam controversy was resolved in large part due to the Rambans involvement and R’ Yona’s retraction. It is true that ultimately there is historical closure but it often takes multiple generations to happen and is therefore not a useful criteria.”

You: Note that I wrote Torah true yidden. Your rebuttal about the karaim is like me looking to the reform or even other religions.

You missed my point. To use your example. Even though there are many reform jews the number doesn’t matter because they are not Torah True Yidden. Torah true Yidden follow the Torah as it is transmitted by the Chochmai HaDor. Now, WHO the chochmai hador are cannot be determined based on how many adherents they have. My example for this was the Karites who had lots of adherents for quite a while.

@ CS

Me: “Step 1 – None of those abilities are unique to a Tzadik (meaning that even non-tzadikim can have them)
Step 2 – Therefore having these abilities does not establish one who possesses them as a Tzadik.”

You: “I am not sure about this – I have seen inside shaar hayichud vihoemuna where the Alter Rebbe states that Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do. This would imply that only tzaddikim do miracles but I’m open to hearing other sources that show otherwise, if you have. In a similar vein, tzadik gozer vHKBH mekayem etc. Yes every Jew has the ability to rise above nature by adhering to Torah and mitzvos, but to promise and come through on miracles, and to decree them with the certainty that Hashem will fulfill seems to be something unique to tzaddikim.”

You know that it is not unique to Tzaddikim from the Parsha in Chumash re: Navi Sheker. The point is that EVEN a navi sheker can affect miracles and know hidden things. One does not have to intentionally seek to use the s”a, one can be misled (and himself not even realize it). Now, I’m NOT saying that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was misled in this way. What I am saying is that since such abilities are not unique to Tzadikim they cannot be used as a criteria.

The above quote from the first Lubavitcher Rebbe does not contradict this at all. The fact that Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do has nothing to do with what criteria ought to be used for accepting them as Tzadikim in the first place.

Next

Me: “What does exist is that numerous Gedolim who were contemporaries of the Lubavitcher Rebbe did hold him in very high esteem and regarded him as a Gadol B’Yisroel. This is a matter of record and is undisputable. You have cited many examples of this in previous threads. So, if your proposition would have been “The Lubavitcher Rebbe was a Gadol B’Yisroel” I would agree that the evidence you cited in previous threads is relevant to accepting THAT proposition. But that is not what you are proposing.”

You: “Ironically that’s what I was meaning to propose, I just used a more lubavitch term which truly means more what you say.”

Given you posts in this (and the last 2 threads) don’t believe that you are proposing to regard the Last Lubavitcher Rebbe as merely a peer of the other Gedolim of his generation. I think what you actually mean is this
1) The last Lubavitcher Rebbe was a Gadol B’Yisroel (as per the above criteria), and
2) Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do
3) Given point 1 and 2 above (IN THAT ORDER) the miracles and accomplishments of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe where indicative of unique greatness

You: My point was to explain why I hold of my Rebbe as I do…

It’s true that we shouldn’t determine what is right and wrong based on winning debates and skilled rhetoric. However, the standard one proposes to adapt should be objectively reliable and applied consistently. Having the matter be a personal decision doesn’t change that.

You: In fact that’s precisely how we’ve determined who’s who in the Torah world, who’s a tzadik etc throughout all the generations: generally by two categories:
1) how many Torah yidden accept their teachings and follow them long term (the Rambam was originally highly controversial but is now universally accepted and acclaimed as a tzadik)

The determination is not made based on the number of adherents. For example, the Karaites outnumbered traditional Yidden in many communities for a not insignificant period of time. The Rambam controversy was resolved in large part due to the Rambans involvement and R’ Yona’s retraction. It is true that ultimately there is historical closure but it often takes multiple generations to happen and is therefore not a useful criteria.

You: 2) other tzaddikim who can see soul levels testifying about the status of said individual.

Since we regular people have no way of knowing who can actually do this I don’t see how this can be a criteria.

You: But it is done because it resonates with the neshama…

Everyone over the age of 15 has had experiences with things resonating with them and later realizing that they were objectively 100% wrong. So that criteria is not reliable either.

@ Out Of Towner

I was thinking of the Chazal he was referring to. Thank you for providing the nimshal.

@ SH

“Goes to show that you’re not actually so familiar with Lubavitch:)
I never heard this person being nicknamed “Shofech Domim” but I got the inference right away”

The fact that you got the inference right away reflects very poorly on the company you keep, far worse than TTs post in fact.