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@ RGPANSN
Have you seen the RAMCHAL’s Derech Tvunos and Sefer Higayon? He does not seem to subscribe to your anti-logic point of view. Quite the contrary. You tend are painting with a paint sprayer where a fine brush is in order.
@ RGPANSN
I wrote: “Are you saying it is assur for the Yom Kippur lady and Seminary girls in your example to do what they did?”
You wrote: “YES! Not only inappropriate, but probably forbidden once they received a psak from their Rabbonim.”
This is correct providing they fail to inform the second Rav that they already received a psak. There are cases where a second Rav may override the original psak (there are of course halachos governing when he can do this).
@ RGPANSN
“A person can always be machmir above and beyond the community standards…however, it should be done in a private manner”I’m glad you pointed out that qualification from מקום שנהגו of not being machmir in public in a place where the custom is to be lenient.
Here are a few more qualifications
1) Have you heard of a concept of yuharah? Not everyone can just opt to be stringent.
2) There are two reasons given in the Poskim as to why one cannot get a heter for something another Rav forbade, one of them is kavodo shel rishon. This reason applies for lenient rulings as well.
3) When being stringent against widely accepted halachic norms one can also run into the problem of being motxei laz al ha Rishonim.
4) The chumrah must not come l’dai kula
5) Even when a chumra does not come l’dai kula directly it is krum to put one’s efforts into something voluntary at the expense of fully fulfilling one’s obligations
6) Someone who takes on 2 chumros that are in direct contradiction is a fool.@ RGPANSN
Just to clarify,
Are you saying it is assur for the Yom Kippur lady and Seminary girls in your example to do what they did?
Are you saying it’s appropriate for a person to act stringently while living in a community where there is an accepted custom to be lenient based on the psak of that community’s Rav (or consensus of that community’s Rabbonim)?
@ anyusernameopen
You wrote:
Step 1 – “I’m not saying you don’t have questions”
,Step 2 – “but they way you write is just wrong, and dont deserve an answer even if you wanted one
Step 3 – “which you dont”
I have a question. Doesn’t step 3 contradict step 1?
Baltimore is very much a neighborhood by neighborhood kind of city. the above referenced FBI stats does not inform a comparison between upper Park Heights and Borough Park. There are 3 types of untruths 1) lies, 2) darn lies, and 3) statistics.
As for the OP’s question, there are plenty of people in B-more wearing the latest shmatas and going to Pesach hotels.
If you are really considering moving here come for a visit. From the tone of your question I suggest staying in the Greenspring area.
@ TT
“eilu v’eilu is a holy Jewish value, except when one of the sides is Moshe Rabbeinu (ispashtusa d’Moshe bechdel dor). That’s the lesson we learn from Korach – he was a big talmid chucho vechu’, but when you argue on the Nossi you are nothing, you lose all maamad”“remember Rashi? Tol mateh vehach al kodkodom, dabor echod ledor etc!”
Ah, the old my Rebbe was Moshe Rabbeinu so all the Gedolim who opposed him where adat Korach argument. Unfortunately, this one is not just a TT special.
@ RGPANSN
“Chazal have used the criteria of “go and see what Yidden have been doing” to decide halacha.”
True that
The criteria has extended into Shulchan Aruch and Nosei Keilim to include even a minhag noshim (who might not be as learned as men)
Right, when their custom was upheld by the Rebbonim.
It is Chazal, the Rishonim, the Shulchan Aruch and Gedolai Haposkim we rely on who upheld the custom in question and it is on them we are relying.
You are trying to apply these principles to justify new beliefs and practices that all the Gedolei HaRabbonim who have weighed in on the matter opposed.
Furthermore you stated that reason / shikul hada’at is not relevant to making the determination when in fact it is very much the shikul hada’at of Gedolei HaRabbonim we rely on in determining what minchag to accept and what to be doche b’ shtei yedayim.
Cheers
@ TT
“That doesnt bring honor to Him”
Guess the Mods missed the capital H this time…
@ AIM
“You are either a false-flag troll…”
Wouldn’t that be nice. But when TT made his grand entrance on CS’s “don’t misunderstand us” thread even SH (begrudgingly and no doubt through gritted teeth) opined that TTs creds seem legit and that he is most likely the real deal.
@ RGPANSN
What kool aid have you been drinking? Minchag oker Halacha is not a blanket principal to justify every belief or practice that has become widespread among a segment of the Jewish population.
@ RGPANSN
“we are primitive ignoramuses”
Speak for yourself
Apparently the good rebbetzin is not familiar with the RAMCH”L’s ma’amar on agadata wherein he teaches that one who takes agadata k’pshuto is twisting the Torah.
I specifically mention the RAMCHAL because if I would bring up the RAMBAM in this context the response would be rather predictable.
It is people who treat the words of our Holy Sages like something out of a brothers Grimm fairy tail who are both mocking their words and making a mockery of their words.
@ anyusernameopen
The RAMCHAL has a sefer opposing SHAT”Z where he addresses and explains the agados that you are brazenly quoting on the CR and obviously misunderstanding. Unlike your contention that the subject matter is incomprehensible he actually explains what can be comprehended. Can you hazard a guess why he felt that such a sefer was necessary?
@ Chossid
“Just because you hear radical stuff about Lubavitche it doesn’t means it’s true”
Are you serious? This isn’t a matter of some unfortunate souls who have bought into some urban legend. People are bothered by things they know from personal experiences. Many people. Many experiences.
Among other things (in no particular order) it is not ok
to attempt to whitewash statements like “Let’s do Mitzvos to make the Rebbe happy” or “Let’s do this Mitzva like the Rebbe commanded” or “The Rebbe should help us” ect.
to think it is perfectly fine to stick pictures of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe (and only his picture) in every room of the house and children’s strollers on the grounds of יהיו עיניך רואות את מוריך
to take isolated quotes from the NH out of content to claim that Rav Chaim Volozhiner is basing the NH on the Tanya
to try and pass off as normative Jewish thought and practice the fixation on the possibility of ones Rav / Rebbe being Moshiach to the extent found today in Chabbad.
to make the laughable claim that the objection to declaring a false moshiach is an innovation of the maskilim
to keep asking, with innocent wide eyed wonder, for names of Gedolim who came out publicly against the last Lubavitcher Rebbe when such names and their respective statements have been provided by multiple posters on multiple past threads and are publically available to anyone who care to run a google search.
.I thought there would be no “chidushim” in this thread. I stand corrected
Chiddush 1
The Nefesh HaChaimin, in disagreement with his Rebbe, the GR”A, based his teachings on Chabbad Chassidus in”many” places. The evidence brought for this was NH 3-7. People who don’t know this are said to simply be unfamiliar with the NH. (Such people are probably also not familiar with the Kitvei Ramchal which dovetail nicely with the NH and preceded Chabad but never mind such pesky trivialities.)Chiddush 2
It has always been normative Judaism to declare one’s Rebbe Moshiach It was the maskilim, in opposition to the very inyan of Moshiach, who opposed this and the Litvish oilem was of course mushpah from the maskilim. The evidence brought for this is the gemara in Sanhedrin and Rabbi Akiva declaring Bar Kochba Moshiach.Got it
@ anyuser
“@lmt You have pretty random things to say nothing rellevent to this CR”
I for one found Lernt’s posts very relevant to the subject of this thread.
“I think you should start a new thread for your apikorses”
What apikorsis?
@ TheFakeMaven
Was your last post a parody of a logical argument?
“As for the rest of you rebuttal, saying I won’t get into it is more or less an admission, so thank you.”
You consider my not being willing to engage in a debate in the YWN coffee room on the finer points of the GR”As and Baal HaTanyas machlokes regarding Tzimzum an admission to the truth of your silly deutions?
@ SH
“Didn’t have ANY? Really? Have you ever looked inside a Rambam? He didn’t have ALL, but he definitely had some. Such as הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצות כדוד אביו.”
That first criteria taken on it’s own would fit many Gedolim. Using your logic I could say that the head of the secular Israeli government fulfills one of the criteria by waging war against the enemies of the Jewish People. Those criteria are parts of a whole.
@ Fakemaven
“Both of you seem to claim that A) Chassidus is an invention (in the strictest sense),”
Interesting. Where did we make this claim?
” and B) no talmudei Ha’Gra held that it’s novelty had any truth to it,
on the contrary it was put into cherem percisely for it.”Where did we make a claim regarding what the precise reason for the cherem was?
“According to any interpretation of the English language this is called a ‘claim’.”
To somehow construe our posts as making the claims you imagine requires either 1) an novel approach to the English language or 2) an outright fabrication.
As for your claim regarding Tzimzum being an example of the “many places” where the Nefesh HaChaim basis himself on Chassidic teachings and disagrees with his Rebbe the GR”A. You are very much mistaken. What the Nefesh HaChaim actually does is show how starting from the same point of departure the approaches diverge. The actual point of disagreement between the GR”A and the Baal HaTanya on this matter is not something I will not be delving into here. Sorry.
@ Fakemaven
“Not only does the NH quote extensively from Chassidic sources, at times he even deviates from his Rebbe the Gr”a in the favor of Chassidic interpretations, case in point Tzimzum.”
You keep repeating this ridiculous claim like a broken record without giving even one coherent example to back yourself up. And no, saying the word “Tzimzum” doesn’t count as a coherent example, sorry.
“Chassidus interpenetrates the Arizal in a novel way, much like the the Arizal interpenetrates the Zohar in a novel way.”
Much like you have interpreted the english language in a novel way
“To sum it up, neither you or NonPolitical have actually quoted anything to substantiate your claims”
We have not made any claims. You made a claim (or rather expressed a fanciful delusion) then
you stated that anyone who disagrees with you is simply ignorant of the sources. I will give you an A+ for originality thorough. I do not recall anyone else in the previous threads coming up with something like this.@ DY
“That only makes sense if you think chassidus was invented”I don’t think he understands the premise of his own proposition. Maybe the cliff notes version will help.
@ Thefakemaven
“The Nefesh HaChaim is very similar, and in fact relied heavily on chasidic interpretations (at least in the first three gates).”
Obviously, he relied on chassidus. It’s not like his Rebbe the GR”A was familiar with the Zohar and Kitvai HaAri, he needed the Baal HaTanya to explain it to him. Nebech.
This is why people have given up. It would be one thing to have this discussion with Chossid and SH but any meaningful dialogue gets lost among this drivel. Soon TT will pipe in with a zinger…
@ anyuser
“As I said he was told lashon hara”
So you are choshed the GR”A of being over on an issur Torah of kabalas lashon hara. Got it.
“it’s written that the only reason why he made the charem was because of what he heard”
The ONLY reason you keep shabbos is because of what you heard from your parents and teachers. There are criteria for when what one hears is deemed credible. I think the Gr”A knew what it was. But a fool believes anything (Mishlei). So here you are being mivazeh a Talmid Chochom.
“Dont you yourself say theres no ruach hakodesh these days”
Who said so? Are you b any chance confusing prophecy with ruach hakodesh?
“@ncb you’re really trying hard – good job – I admire ppl that fight for what they think is right.”
Where you around for the last three threads on this subject the last of which was one of the longest on this site?
“And btw you misunderstood the halacha/kabala thing which I didn’t explain…”
Does this line (and its premise) sound familiar to anyone?
@ NCB
Your perseverance is admirable.
@ The Fake Maven
“Ultimately hashkafa is just another way of saying how one can grow in avodah.”
No, this is so wrong I don’t even know where to begin. There are many differences in matters of hanhaga and matters that deal with Yesodei HaDas. Not at all comparable to going from Brisk, to Mir, to Telz, to Ner. Sorry, don’t have time for a more complete response right now.
“No one (unless he knows your shoresh haneshama) can tell you which path of avodas Hashem is the best for you…”
Sigh….
@ 1
“…or they were trying to bring back the old days that were changed in Europe. This rational, litvish approach was a reaction to the Sabbateans. However, Sefardim were into kabbalah throughout the ages.
No, the above is a distortion. The Gaon and his talmidim learned Kabbalah. The Talmidei Chachamim that where holding by it among other Chassidim learned Kabbalah. Chabbad’s chidush was what amounts to a “Kabbalah l’am” approach. This was certainly an innovation. They themselves acknowledge this.
“…so doesn’t seem right to say that he had 50/50 so there has to be more to it”
At best this is just a siyuah b’almah. Surely the primary yisod for the Ba’al HaTanya’s svara had to be more than this Gemara.
I used to be a skater in my teens. Even had my own launch ramp (which I gave to some kid in a swirly kippa when moving from one city to another). So when my son was 11 years old I figured I would buy him a skateboard. No discount store board, the real deal. We went to a local skate shop to pick up a a pro board. It was there among the people, the music, and the merchandise that I fully remembered the culture that went with the skating. So I almost reconsidered my idea. Almost. Lesson learned, don’t go to skate shops. I bought him a board online and he used it to skate to shul and Yeshiva for a number of years. No skater culture, no problem.
“by the mesorah of Brisk and the Mir”
Um, Brisk and Mir are quite different but never mind the details, I guess.
@ DY
Excellent responses, as usual.
Let’s be clear, learning Torah is not some side gig that contributes to your “overall sense of accomplishment”. Every Jewish man has an obligation to learn to the fullest extent of his G-D given abilities and resources. And then some. Small business, skilled trades, and professional services coupled with a frugal lifestyle are often means of maximizing the time one can commit to learning.
A couple of thoughts re: the op
1) Even the perushim in the time of the GR”A were involved in parnassa matters 2 hours per day (per other versions 3-4 hours per day).
2) Teaching limudei Kodesh and Rabbinical posts don’t leave one with a lot of time to learn.
Mindless peer parotting is a symptom of immaturity / low self esteem. Though the heavy emphasis in some places on conformity exacerbates the problem.
@ DY
“So change the law. Suing a yeshiva out of existence isn’t the answer. The people who will suffer aren’t the perpetrators or enablers.”
Agreed. Much better to go after the perps and any individual who knew or should have known what was happening. Perps and their enablers hop from institution to institution. On the other hand such a law might dissuade those who would try to “deal with the problem internally” so as to protect the reputation of a prominent family or institution.
@ takes3
“Tikkun olam is a non orthodox concept. There is no such concept in the Torah. Well, at least not how you mean it… the entire concept of tikkun olam was made up by liberal jews.”
This is a mistake. The concept of tikkun olam is very much Torah concept. What the secularists did was perverted the concept and used it as a substitute for Torah and Mitzvot.
Chessed is one of the 3 pillars of the world. Rav Moshe called America a medina shel chessed. He didn’t mean that they learn and live Tomer Devorah or Chumash Rashi. Now, chessed can be perverted. It can also be used as a substitute to Torah. That’s bad. Very. That doesn’t mean one gets to say that chessed is not a Torah concept.
שלי שלי ושלך שלך זה מדה בינוני וי”א זה מידת סדום
On the other hand how can a frum Yid support a Party that (for starters)
-supports abortion on demand, partial birth abortions, funding planned parenthood even after…
-supports same gender “marriages”, supports mandatory education that such unions are moral
-is openly pro Palestinian / anti-Israel (even the better ones among them equivocate between them)@ SH
“In fact, we often “laugh” at those who we percieve to be doing Mitzvos in order to get Schar.”
Why laugh? Someone who gives Tzedaka so his son will live or to be zoche to olam haba is a Tzadik Gamur. The Gemoro says so. Furthermore mitooch shlo l’shmah ba l’shmah.
Furthermore who is talking about doing Mitzvos to get schar? The subject is doing Mitzvos to bring Moshiach. It was regarding this the eBurntFace posted the very relevant vort from the Ger Rebbe.
“Hashem made this world, and put us on it, and gave us Mitzvos Maasiyos, in order for us to make him a Dirah B’tachtonim. The culmination of that, is Bias HaMoshiach. We do Mitzvos because we are commanded to do so, but this is the reason why Hashem set up the world in such a fashion.”
Really? That is The Reason?? That is mamish the Tachlis HaBriah? (I assume) you well know Moshiach and Dira Btachtonim is not the end game עין לא ראתה אלקים זולתך ואכמ”ל. But I digress…
Knowing that the redemption is our destiny and anticipating / hoping for Moshiach is one thing. Making bringing Moshiach either the motivation for or intent of performing Mitzvot is another. When individuals or communities became fixated on this in the past the results where catastrophic.
@ laskern
“…We do mitzvos with greater ferver when we know the reason for doing it. The Sefer Hachinuch is based on this idea”
+1
I would just modify the statement from “the reason” to “one of the reasons”.
Your point and eBurntFace’s point can actually stand together quite harmoniously. I think he is saying that ultimately our intent in doing Mitzvos is because Hashem said so. He is speaking to the issue that people have decided that they ought to do mitzvos with the intent of bringing about a certain effect / result. That’s not ok. That’s Hashem’s department, not ours.
Now, deepening our knowledge of and therefore appreciation of Hashem’s intent for saying so is certainly not only meretricious it is our obligation. Mitzvos are the means which Hashem gave us to connect to Him. To merely perform one’s obligations robotically like one discharging their obligation is not the pinnacle of a close relationship. I don’t think eBurntFace is disagreeing with that.
Gut Shabbos
@ CS
” The truth is pretty much all those over the top quotes the REBBE himself made about the Frierdiker Rebbe, his Rebbe, the year after his histalkus. Including the Rebbe saying he is with us in this Gashmius world, running the world by being morer rachamim above etc. So we haven’t gone crazy. We’re just following in our Rebbe’s ways. And as the Rebbe was acknowledged as a tzadik by many other gedolei Yisrael…”
The Gedolim who understood the last Lubavitcher Rebbe’s words the way you do did not acknowledge him as such. The ones who did where 1) unaware of the controversial statements OR 2) where aware of them but refused to believe that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe actually said them, OR 3) understood the statements in line with how SH and Username do.
The scope of my disagreement with SH and Username are nuanced, not unique to Chabad, and a distraction from the more pressing issues being addressed . I am sure they realize that in this case shtika is not k’hodah.
@ CS
“when you look at the results you will see it is the truth. If it really was a problem and distracted from Hashem, then MY generation would have mostly forgotten Hashem cvs or Chabad would have broken down and joined other groups as many predicted. The fact that not only are we not decreasing, but we’re growing stronger shows something”
The truth? Hardly. I do concede that it does show something…just not what you think.
@ NCB
“You’re missing my point.”
I do understand and appreciate your point.
“Take the way you feel about the Litvish customs apply that as the feeling Lubavitchers have about not sleeping in the Sukkah. Now take the way you feel about Lubavitchers not sleeping in the Sukkah and apply that as the feeling they have about the Litvish practices I mentioned.”
My position regarding litvish customs is not based on a feeling it’s based on reason. I’m not willing to equivocate between the two. Judging by your response, neither are you.
@ NCB
I don’t agree with you that the shaving and korbanos policies were silly.
Bochurim shaving goes back to a consideration the Roshei Yeshivas had before the war and very much applied in the US after the war as well. This policy greatly enhanced kavod HaTorah and ultimately harbatzes HaTorah. Also, in communities where only the Rebonim had beards it is very much machzi k’yuhera for unmarried bochurim to do the same.
According to the GR”A we should be starting with Baruch Sh’amar in Shul, as s it is we are already being machmir to start before that. If someone wants to say Korbanos before the minyan starts what’s stopping them? Keep in mind that making things longer won’t necessarily increase the amount of time people will spend on Tephilla, they will just davven faster to be able to say more in the same amount of time. Also, the hashivus of Torah vis a vis Tephilla is not a silly thing to hammer home. The Nefish HsChayim spent a considerable amount of ink on that subject.
@ NCB
Eg. the fact that Litvish yeshivas don’t have mikvahs b’shittah, the fact that litvish bochrim are clean-shaven b’shittah, the fact that litvish bochrim could go years without saying korbanos b’shittah, etc.
None of the above are examples of playing fast and loose with Halacha. Mikvos, beards, and saying korbonos are not mandatory m’icker hadin.
There are times when a pre-existing, widespread practice seems to contradict Halacha, and it can be shown that Rabbonim were aware of the practice, and didn’t object to it. THEN, based on the above evidence (widespread practice w/o objection) subsequent Rebonim may propose a solution. Such a consideration is itself very much a part of the Halachic due process. And even still the proposed solution may well be rejected by Rabbonim who are contemporaries of the Rav who proposed it or the Rabbonim of subsequent generations.
@ SH
“The Minchas Yitzchak also quotes the Rebbe regarding ships on Shabbos.”
This is in fact more relevant Thank you for living up to your name. I did not learn that teshuva. What does it say?
@ Syag
Thank you for clarifying
@ Yeshivishrockstar
“Username – You still have not answered my question re: the end of the Sukkah Sicha, where chassidim can be soimech on the tzaar of the Rebbe.”
I have alluded to this very point twice. This is the very part of the sicha Username omitted.
Notice that there was also no adequate responses to the the issues of:
-Doersh el HaMaitim. Making hishtadlus to communicate with the dead is assur (the quote from שבחי הארי” was mere misdirection).
-The Idea that it is somehow a greater fulfillment in the Mitzva of Kavod to fantasize that ones Rav is the Tzadik of the Tanya
-The Idea that it is somehow legitamite to play fast and loose with Halacha to justify minhagim.@ username
” I mean, I have a lot of friends in NY, and the Mishne Halachos never visited them, so you can imply that the Mishna Halachos viewed the Rebbe higher than he viewed my friends. Now it obviously didn’t make the Mishna Halachos the Rebbe’s Chossid, and it wouldn’t surprise me to know that he argued on the Rebbe. But it shows that he viewed the Rebbe as a Gadol (he did write Zatzal after the Rebbe’s name).”
It shows nothing of the sort. Nobody disputes that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe had a very wide reaching influence. This itself is reason enough for Gedolai Yisroel to visit / respond.
@ Syag
Things where very different before the war, and right after as well.
My guest this past Shabbos was telling me the the Rom Brothers (publishers of the Vilna Shas) where selling 80 Shassim per year. Worldwide.
It was very difficult for Benai Torah to get married. Rav Chaim Oizer used to stand up for crippled women. When asked about this he replied that they are probably married to Talmidei Chachamim.
Almost none of the women covered their hair.
There was a Rebbetzin of a famous Rosh Yeshiva who had a TV in their home.
We have a lot to be grateful for.
אל תדין את חבירך עד שתגיע למקומו
@ Syag
“Our gedolim and rabbeim are HOLY yidden, not because we think they are god, super human, or free of sin (something we would have NO way of knowing)”
Beautifully written.
And this was even true in the time of Navi’im. Shmuel HaNavi thought to anoint Dovid HaMelch’s older brother. Hashem told him that while people can see the eyes Hashem sees the heart. Later in the sefer we are made aware of his shortcomings by the war with the Plishtim when he became angry. Hindsight is 20/20.
@ Username
1) I want to reiterate that the “proof ” for initiating communication with a Tzadik who passed away from the Ari Z”l who learned Torah from RSHB”Y is a false move. The Ari Z”l did nothing to initiate that communication.
2) Surely you know what the last Lubavitcher Rebbe wrote in the sicha regarding not sleeping in a Sukkah Why are you changing it’s content? It is, after all, the svora in the sicha that Rso was asking about.
3) It is NOT a blanket Klal that you get to twist Halacha to justify a minchag. When such justifications are put forth (by leading Poskim) it still depends very much on how they are received by the other Poskim of that and subsequent doros. We can all go dig up justifications for just about anything you want in the vast SHU”T literature.
4) I”m still interested to hear in what way Chabad Chassidim respect their Rebbe more then other Yidden respect their Rabbonim. You said that their is a machlokes re: degree of required respect. Please elaborate.
@ Username
“1. People who really grasped the holiness of a Sukkah – and these were Tzaddikim who’s sleep was a different sleep (for example, Shivchei Ari says how the Arizal would learn deep Sisrei Torah while he slept), so for them there was no problem sleeping in a Sukkah, so they had the Chiyuv DeOraisa to sleep in a Sukkah.2. The regular folk, who didn’t know the Sisrei Torah behind the Sukkah. So they obviously didn’t feel bad about sleeping in a Sukkah, so they had the Chiyuv DeOriasa to sleep in the Sukkah.
It’s just that due to Yeridas Hadoros on one hand, and the spread of Chassidus on the other (so that even relatively simple people have some understanding of what holiness a Sukkah has), that there’s this guilty feeling.”
Did you ever learn the sicha inside? A guilty feeling due to [mis]understanding sisrai Torah has nothing to do with it.
1- 1-1/2 teaspoon of decent instant coffee, 1 teaspoon of sugar, (cocoa optional), add just enough hot water to stir and desove the above, add cold milk to the top.
PROTEIN – CALCIUM – ENERGY* – REFRESHING* I personally don’t use caffeinated coffee more then 2-3 times per week. Not interested in building up a tolerance / addiction to the stuff. Decaf works great on the other days.