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@ klugeryid
“basically your taking it out on Joseph because his comment triggers your rent up frustrations from people you come in contact with on a regular basis”
Being a male I am not on the receiving end of the kind of neirishkeit that would result in such pent up frustration.
@ klugeryid
“if someone routinely denigrated men in general by pointing out an intrinsic masculine failing, why would it bother me?”
I suspect a reason it doesn’t bother you is that you are not subjected to behavior and attitudes rooted in discriminatory premises on a regular basis. Maybe if you where you might feel differently.
@ Yeshivaguy78
“That’s not correct. Of course there are exceptions to intrinsic traits”
Please review the concepts of intrinsic vs incidental as the terms are commonly used in philosophy and logic.
Maybe philosopher (given her screen name) will be willing to help you out with this.@ Klugeryid
“Yeshivaguy78
While I could not follow you at all, at least your post seemed to have substance. Kudos.”I did follow the post and to me it came across as a feminist rant.
@ Philosopher et al
My point in contrasting specifically Devorah with other nashim tzedkanyos is this.
1) There is a distinction between intrinsic and incidental traits.2) If NDK is an incidental trait then it doesn’t necessarily apply to Devorah. It also wouldn’t NECESSARILY apply to most women today, one would have to make an assessment based on whatever concept of NDK one is using. That’s how incidental traits work.
3) If NDK is an intrinsic trait then it applies to all women at all times because it is part of what it is to be a women. That is how intrinsic traits work. It would therefore also apply to Devorah. One would then have to adapt a concept of NDK that would not prevent one with such a trait from being a permanent chain in the link of Torah transmission.
That is also why I did not use prophecy and tzidkus in making my point.
Checkmate.
@ DY
“I don’t get the point of bringing the cases of exceptional women in klal Yisroel’s history”
I’m surprised, you usually have a sharper eye for nuance. I wasn’t merely bringing up exceptional women. My remark was more pointed then that. I was contrasting most exceptional women with one. specifically Devorah and the fact that she had a very unique role in Klal Yisroel.
C”V that I would say anything to undermine one word of Chazal.
Also, a correction is in order. When I wrote ” all that remains is for someone to bring up a certain Gemmara in Chulin to attempt to undermine my bringing an example from Devorah” Chulin I meant to say a certain Gemmara in Magilah.
@ philosopher
“we each have our own spiritual destiny”
True that. But, we also have a collective destiny and when the ladies aren’t on board things go on a hand basket ride to warmer climates in a hurry. Contrast the situation in pre Bais Yaacov Europe with post Bais Yaacov America. It is not for nothing that Rav Aaron famously said he would never have been ab;e to build Lakewood Yeshiva w/o Bais Yaaov.
@ Philosopher
“I don’t think a woman being a nevuah is such a low spiritual point”
Per the source I quoted above it’s even more then that. Devorah was a link in the chain of the authoritative transmitters of Torah. Sarah, Miriam, Ester, and Hulda where also neviot. Ma’atikei HaShmuah is a uniquely special distinction. It is especially interesting because women are not mitzuveh in Talmud Torah and gadol mitzuveh v’oseh. In spite of that she was the shofetes of her generation. Barak even refused to fight Sisra if she did not go with him.
Now, all that remains is for someone to bring up a certain Grmmara in Chulin to attempt to undermine my bringing an example from Devorah.
Take a look at the hakdamah of Perush Machzor Vitri on Avos (printed in every Yachin u Boaz Mishnaos).
See there in the hakdomah where the ma’atikai hashmuah (authoritative transmitters of the Torah) are listed. Get to the part where Devorah and Boaz are listed among the ma’atikai ha-Shmuahin of their generation. Next, take a deep breath and look at the shinuy girsot (sourced from the Sefer HaKaneh if I remember correctly) that Devorah received the Torah and transmitted it to Barak. Now meditate on the implications of that.@ Rational
You stated a proposition and supported it only to have your point beaten down like a scarecrow full of straw. Must be frustrating. For whatever it’s worth you have my empathy.
@ Besalel
Great response!
@ MrSarhahLevine
Why are you using a transgender screen name?
This was actually a very useful post. I never heard of these before and was considering the standard soy stuff (not a fan). Went out and bought a bunch of these yesterday for my family’s supper during the 9 days. Thank you.
@ CA
“Did I say all people that live in Baltimore hate trump? Those that do are baltimorons the rest are baltimorians”
Thank you for clarifying. I retract.
@ coffee addict
“Exactly, because baltomorons hate trump and are RACISTS”
You just leveled a prejudiced insult at an entire community based on the comments of one CR liberal.
@ Kerevelt
“Just want to make sure that you’re aware, that by your definition we (am yisroel) wouldn’t have been zoche to the works of: The RaMBaM…RaMChaL”
GM’s criteria is spot on. There may have been controversy regarding the Rambam and the Ramchal initially, however:
1) Even at the time of the controversy it was certainly not a majority consensus against
2) B’Mehalech ha-doros both the Rambam and Ramchal where embraced by all Gedolim and many their works have come to be regarded as essential and are universally studied ad hayom. (The study of certain works are obviously reserved for those who have mastered the necessary prerequisites as the mehabrim themselves clearly state.)I am adding my voice in requesting an answer to Greymatter’s question. Of course we rely on a Chezkes Kashrus, and by a Talmid Chochom it is even more then that, we can be certain of his kashrus. But,all of this applies until “we know”. So, what would it be like to know such a thing? What would need to happen?
@ Luna
“I think the section controlled by women would be taken seriously because they’d actually get stuff done.”
Right, because in most times and places that this occurred that is exactly what happened. You are, no doubt, merely extrapolating from a smaller scale to grander one. well done.
“Men have been in control of governments all over the world for centuries….”
Oops. Maybe not.
“and look at how much corruption and chaos exists.”
I have heard this argument before. It goes something like this…
“The Tzars have been controlling this country (Russia) long enough and look at how much corruption and chaos exists let’s overthrow the buggers and make a workers paradise”But I realize that you where not trying to make a rational argument. You where merely expressing disdain at what is an offensive oversimplification of a rather nuanced issue.
“Ruining a misogynist’s day is enough motivation for me to support something”
I think most posters would agree with this sentiment. After all, if it wasn’t for misogynists we probably wouldn’t have feminists.
@ talmid
“if his kabbalah from his rebbi or father is not to shave”
That’s the point. It seems that in pre-war Europe the common practice was for bachurim to shave so, generally speaking, there was no such kabbalah. I think exceptions where made for Chassidic bochurim though. Someone more familiar with the history can weigh in on that.
Did it occur to you that Rav Chaim was speaking to the specific bachur and commented on something that was appropriate for him?
@ Talmid
“Does it make a difference what the local “Minhag” of Lakewood is? Is Lakewood the Sanhedrin of Klal Yisroel?”
On the one hand
1) Lakewood is the largest Yeshiva in the US, It was Rav Aaron”s Yeshiva and is run by his RM”K (his grandson) and the Roshei Yeshiva are his talmidim
2) RM”H (the Rav of the Star K is himself a Talmid of Rav Aaron and an internationally respected PosekOn the other hand an internet rabbi with with multiple personalities wishes to establish that there is a consensus of Litvesh Gedolai Yisroel INCLUDING RAV AARON not like Rav Moshe.
And you somehow fail to see how the yeshiva policy (not just local custom) of Lakewood Yeshiva is relevant to the conversation??
Sorry RATIONAL, I hijacked your question.
@ NCB
“B’klal, we all know Litvaks are more likely to be OK with this than chassidim”
Not true.
@ Just Another Yid
“to say that Joseph is saying fake Halacha is not true. it’s like calling Ashkenazim fake because of Sephardi rabbis”
Sure it’s true, your comparison is flawed. If Ashkenazim told all the Sephardim that they cannot follow the Psak of their Rebbeim and are compelled to follow ours that would be fake Halacha.
@ Rational
“This method of persuasion is ineffective and irrational.”
How I wish it was so. Unfortunately, one does not have to be rational to be effective. Appeals to authority and social proofs are quite effective at influencing behavior.
@ Mentsch1
“Litvaks have always prioritized psak (not everyone was regarded equal) Rav Moshe was the posek Hador.”Everyone prioritizes, it’s not a Litvak thing. There are princples from Shas and Poskim how to prioritize. Not sure what you mean by “Posek HaDor” though. Is that sort of like Nasi Hador only not?
Thus far the mental health professions have not inspired a whole lot of confidence in these areas. It’s an open question if overall they help more then they hurt. I’m not suggesting that we throw out the baby with the bathwater. Just that, in this case, there is an awful lot of bathwater.
@ Talmid
“It is a chassidishe concept so you need to consult with chassidishe rabbonim to fully understand what it means”
Nebech.
@ Joseph
After reading the news today I finally see the light. You where right all along. New York truly does exist on a higher plane of Ruchnius then the rest of the country. In NY we are zoche to experience ma’at machzik et hamirubeh, lo and behold the simple sidewalks in NY accommodate vehicles and pedestrians.
Syag, I think you owe Joseph an apology.
@ Joseph
“…move to the city that never sleeps. Because the Kol HaTorah is fired up 24/7”
Only a New Yorker is capable of the delusion that someone in actually jealous of their lifestyle. Also, You are, grossly overstating the benefits of living in NY and understating the nisyonos. As for your contention that the Kol Torah is fired up 24/7. Maybe, you could compare the number of married full time learners in NY vs Lakewood?
Lest you think I just don’t know what I’m missing you should know that I visit NY quite regularly (my mother lives there).
@ ncb
“the usual wacky, Tzionishe suspects…”
I, for one, am not tzionish. I’m non-political.
Not being from NY, I had no idea that in many communities Yiddish is the first language. I do have friends from most major Yeshivas in the US and Israel. While many do speak a Yeshivish Yiddish for none of them is Yiddish their first language.
@ CTL
“My father Z”L was fluent in 18 languages”
More then 1/4 of the way to the language competency requirement to sit on the Sanhedrin. Impressive. Today, it seems, the trend is to know 0 languages fluently and to consider this a virtue.
The OP is on target. Once upon a time, in a shtetl far far away Yidish was the common Jewish language, the mamma loshon of European Jewry. For better of for worse most Yidden today neither speak it or understand it. It is true that in certain communities it is strongly propped up and succeeds in becoming a 2nd language to English in the US and to Ivrit in Israel.
Be that as it may, many of the Gedolim heard shiurim from their Rebbeim in Yiddish and spoke it in their homes it is therefore a language very much beloved to them. And what is beloved to the Gedolim is beloved to Klal Israel. I, for one, regret never having learned Yiddish. Many shiurim are available on Kol Lashon from some of our greatest luminaries, in Yiddish.
@ NCB
“Your presentation is a false dichotomy. The fact that you think bochrim either learn enough halachah to become a posek or don’t learn any…”Please don’t put words in my mouth, I said no such thing.
Of course bachurim should learn Halacha (and Tanach as well, but that’s for another post). Whatever gave you the idea that I think otherwise?
@ rational
“Dear YO, I respect your views…”
Why??
@ laskern
“It seems to be the old shalah of sinai veokar horim…”
It only deceptively seems like that. I’ll explain. R’ Channina Ben Dosa was a Tana who had a tremendous koach haTephilla. so much so that when R’ Yochanan Ben Zackai’s son was ill he sent talmidim to RCHB”D to pray for them. When his wife asked RYB”Z is RCHB”D was greater then him he answered “no, he is like a servant before The King and I am like a minister before THE KING. Both RCHB”D and RYB”Z where first and foremost Gedolai HaTannaim. Same thing with Rava (oiker harrim) and R’ Yossef (sinai). The question was who to recruit as the next Rosh Yeshiva.
Next. There is a famous teshuva from the Ri Migash where he points out the advantage to Dayanim of knowing Psakim of the Geonim. No one ignores this. Every major contemporary Posek from R’ Moshe, to R’ Vozner, to R’ Ovadia where versed in psakim of Rishonim and Acharonim backwards and forwards.
As for talmidim who do not become poskim or dayanim, what would you rather have.
A) someone who appriciates the amkus of a sugya and knows how to learn
or
B) a da’aya zoger@ NCB
“The shul being discussed here, for those who don’t know…”
I, for one had no Idea. Thank you for clarifying. Now we know the that the Meseorah YO is referring to is ish m’pi ish m’pi Avi Weiss u’ bait dino.
@ YO
“authentic, natural Judaism”You can have natural Judaism, we”ll go with the original Divinely revealed version.
@ YO “Imagine you worked with people that kept saying incorrect things about Jews. Eventually you’d want to correct them”
Right, like the anti-Semitic myth that Jews descend from Khazars
Also, news flash. It is not only among Ashkenazim that certain groups started emphasizing practices based on the Zohar and Kitvei Ari. Surely you are familiar with the Chida and Ben Ish Chai (for starters). This does not make any ones mesorah 200 years old. We all learn Rashi, Tos, and Rosh right along with Rif, Rambam, and Rashba.
@ Rational
Excellent posts. It’s sad they seem to have gone underappreciated.
@ et al
Regarding the question of whether or not all Gadlus / Rabbanus is local please refer to the original smicha controversy (Rivash 271).
@ YO
While there where some interesting tidbits in what you wrote that may have been worth discussing they where unfortunately lost in so much verbal vomit. I will not be troubling myself to retrieve them.
@ ZD
Surely you do know that the Rosh and Tur where Ashkenazim. Did you happen to know what the Rosh held regarding the authority of the Ba’alai Tosafot vs the Rambam? How about the authority of Ashenazi customs and scholorship vs those of his adopted land?
@ Joseph
ChabadShlucha was reigned in by her Shliach bossRight. I’m sure he employed some good old fashioned home correction. Judaism is not Islam Jo.
@ CS
Bh my kids and tehillim have been keeping me quite busyI somehow knew CS wasn’t going to let that one go. כל הכבוד
@ IITFT
RGPANSN wrote: “would not have accorded extreme kovod to their Rebbe”
You responded: How is it you so assuredly presume they did? While There were some who did their closest respected Colleagues perceived it as naivete on their Part”
1. I think it’s (beyond) presumptuous to ascribe naivete to the likes of Rav Moshe.
2. Her presumption is only in the word “extreme” as well as the conclusions she derives. The fact that he was accepted as a Gadol by a number of other Gedolim is a matter of public record. Furthermore, even after the insanity that followed his patira the Agudah refused to come out against Chabbad (The RCA eventually did issue a machah of sorts). See Rabbi, Dr. David Berger’s book on the subject (which is warmly endorsed by Rav Aaron Feldman).
I only bring this up because you called me out on a similar point an number of threads back in a conversation with CS and I didn’t respond at the time.
On another note…
Mods, why did my last post not get approved? Is it because I quoted the non-testament to demonstrate how a very (in)famous individual used the concept of memutzeh ha-mihaber?
“Are you going to compare the yeddin in the midbor asking Moishe Rabbiu for their need, is compared to people serving the sun a the moon? Not only that Moishe said ונתתי.”
“I’m not okay with davening to a tzaddik either, I am OK with him being a tool to connect with Hashem b/c that is his point, like the yidden with moshe rabeinu and that is the purpose of a tzaddik”
😂😂😂😂😂
@ YSeigel
It’s clever how you positioned the Litvish Oilem as being על מנת לקבל פרס and Chabad as לא עך מנת לקבל פרס (or maybe על מנת שלא לקבל פרס). I guess we can’t compare between the mountain of Chabbad Chassidus and the mountain of Polish Chassidus but let’s tread on the the lowly Litvish molehill. That’s ok. Har Sinai was the lowest mountain also.
@balnce
“…Does that make things clearer”
No, because you are not being internally consistent. I’ll grant you that IF singing this song does become an established minhag recognized as such by Poskim of stature then you would have something. I would also grant you that IF there are leprechauns then there is also probably a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
“I was suggesting my humble opinion on the matter that this does in fact get the status of a Minhag”
But you yourself said that the criteria for determining what gets such a status are not clear and needs to be determined by a competent Posek.
I’m trying to understand how your point of view as you are expressing it.
@balanceis the key
“the parameters of ‘Minhag Yisrael’ are not clearly defined in Halacha and need to be determined by a Posek assessing the situation.”
“it is a Minhag Yisrael, which is equivalent to a Rav paskening that it is proper”
Please clarify
@ RGPANSN
Have you seen the RAMCHAL’s Derech Tvunos and Sefer Higayon? He does not seem to subscribe to your anti-logic point of view. Quite the contrary. You tend are painting with a paint sprayer where a fine brush is in order.
@ RGPANSN
I wrote: “Are you saying it is assur for the Yom Kippur lady and Seminary girls in your example to do what they did?”
You wrote: “YES! Not only inappropriate, but probably forbidden once they received a psak from their Rabbonim.”
This is correct providing they fail to inform the second Rav that they already received a psak. There are cases where a second Rav may override the original psak (there are of course halachos governing when he can do this).
@ RGPANSN
“A person can always be machmir above and beyond the community standards…however, it should be done in a private manner”I’m glad you pointed out that qualification from מקום שנהגו of not being machmir in public in a place where the custom is to be lenient.
Here are a few more qualifications
1) Have you heard of a concept of yuharah? Not everyone can just opt to be stringent.
2) There are two reasons given in the Poskim as to why one cannot get a heter for something another Rav forbade, one of them is kavodo shel rishon. This reason applies for lenient rulings as well.
3) When being stringent against widely accepted halachic norms one can also run into the problem of being motxei laz al ha Rishonim.
4) The chumrah must not come l’dai kula
5) Even when a chumra does not come l’dai kula directly it is krum to put one’s efforts into something voluntary at the expense of fully fulfilling one’s obligations
6) Someone who takes on 2 chumros that are in direct contradiction is a fool.@ RGPANSN
Just to clarify,
Are you saying it is assur for the Yom Kippur lady and Seminary girls in your example to do what they did?
Are you saying it’s appropriate for a person to act stringently while living in a community where there is an accepted custom to be lenient based on the psak of that community’s Rav (or consensus of that community’s Rabbonim)?
@ anyusernameopen
You wrote:
Step 1 – “I’m not saying you don’t have questions”
,Step 2 – “but they way you write is just wrong, and dont deserve an answer even if you wanted one
Step 3 – “which you dont”
I have a question. Doesn’t step 3 contradict step 1?
Baltimore is very much a neighborhood by neighborhood kind of city. the above referenced FBI stats does not inform a comparison between upper Park Heights and Borough Park. There are 3 types of untruths 1) lies, 2) darn lies, and 3) statistics.
As for the OP’s question, there are plenty of people in B-more wearing the latest shmatas and going to Pesach hotels.
If you are really considering moving here come for a visit. From the tone of your question I suggest staying in the Greenspring area.
@ TT
“eilu v’eilu is a holy Jewish value, except when one of the sides is Moshe Rabbeinu (ispashtusa d’Moshe bechdel dor). That’s the lesson we learn from Korach – he was a big talmid chucho vechu’, but when you argue on the Nossi you are nothing, you lose all maamad”“remember Rashi? Tol mateh vehach al kodkodom, dabor echod ledor etc!”
Ah, the old my Rebbe was Moshe Rabbeinu so all the Gedolim who opposed him where adat Korach argument. Unfortunately, this one is not just a TT special.
@ RGPANSN
“Chazal have used the criteria of “go and see what Yidden have been doing” to decide halacha.”
True that
The criteria has extended into Shulchan Aruch and Nosei Keilim to include even a minhag noshim (who might not be as learned as men)
Right, when their custom was upheld by the Rebbonim.
It is Chazal, the Rishonim, the Shulchan Aruch and Gedolai Haposkim we rely on who upheld the custom in question and it is on them we are relying.
You are trying to apply these principles to justify new beliefs and practices that all the Gedolei HaRabbonim who have weighed in on the matter opposed.
Furthermore you stated that reason / shikul hada’at is not relevant to making the determination when in fact it is very much the shikul hada’at of Gedolei HaRabbonim we rely on in determining what minchag to accept and what to be doche b’ shtei yedayim.
Cheers
@ TT
“That doesnt bring honor to Him”
Guess the Mods missed the capital H this time…
@ AIM
“You are either a false-flag troll…”
Wouldn’t that be nice. But when TT made his grand entrance on CS’s “don’t misunderstand us” thread even SH (begrudgingly and no doubt through gritted teeth) opined that TTs creds seem legit and that he is most likely the real deal.
@ RGPANSN
What kool aid have you been drinking? Minchag oker Halacha is not a blanket principal to justify every belief or practice that has become widespread among a segment of the Jewish population.