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newbee – “this is incorrect. he should marry a girl from a non frum family if she is a true baal teshuva and a tzadakis.”
I hear you, so do other poskim and rabonim. But tell that to daasyochid who obviously disagrees with you.
If we take what I wrote on my other post about a bas kohen and rov ovadia, we must conclude according to you playing the literal game that any jewish male who learns an hour a day (thus being a talmmid chacham who is allowed to marry a bas kohen) should not marry a girl from a non-frum family.
“It was deleted for being too blunt on a public website.”
I can attest to that.
“Have I got your reasoning correctly?”
No, daasyochid, you dont have my reasoning correctly. I think you are confused.
MsPrincess: “why should talmid chachams not marry baal teshuva?”
Im not saying he should not, thats what daasyochid is saying because he is taking things literally when he should not be and claiming I am being illogical for saying otherwise. The gem daasyochid quoted immediately after says that a talmid chacham should not marry the daughter of someone who is not learned, such as a girl who comes from a non-frum family.
I found this thread based on my other discussion with daas yochid based on the gem we were discussing in pesachim.
oomis, what you said cannot be correct “It is likewise ideal for a bas Kohein to marry a Talmid Chochom who is also a Kohein.”
Anyway, I think this thread is a pretty good example how we dont take these things literally.
You see daasyochid, you conveniently left out the next sentence of the gem you quoted:
?”?
????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?”? ????? ??? ??”?
??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??????
??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????
If we take it literally as you say, all the girls who come from non-frum families should not even bother looking for a nice Jewish learner.
daasyochid: “Newbee, the gemara I quoted is referred to in Rambam and Shulchan Aruch. It’s not aggad’ta.”
It doesn’t matter. Its still aggadah and we dont take it literally. The gem also says a talmid chacham should not marry a woman who comes from a non-religious home and is a bale teshuva.
I guess all the girls who are bale teshuva should throw away their shidduch resumes?
I even hear some people say, “well men who learn all day are “higher” than other men, but not other women. Why not? Because women sacrifice in other ways.”
So a woman can can reach the highest madreigos with no Torah learning but a man who learns only half a day apposed to a full day is lower on the totem poll than a kollel wife who doesn’t learn at all?
We need to stop ranking and filing.
“Categorizing some people as talmidei chachomim and categorizing other people as not being talmidei chachomim is ranking them, needs to be done and we do that ranking and it makes a practical difference how we treat each category.”
But we also respect ashirim right? Because it says it in the gem. So now you have to add money into the mix. We also respect yichus right? So now you have to add that into the mix. You are going to ostracize a lot of people and cause a lot of social problems by putting everyone in a society on a totem poll, measuring them by superficial values, and treating them accordingly. There are many people who would not want to be part of that society or suffer under the weight of it. Both men and women. People who learn in kollel are not “better”- im sorry if that bothers you. If they need to feel “better” in order to rough it out in kollel they shouldn’t be there in the first place.
daas yochid: “You made that up. You don’t like what Chaza”l say, so you decide that they didn’t mean it. But these things are nogeia l’halacha, regarding priority in aliyos, for example.”
Thats not very polite of you to say I dont like what chazal say- not very nice middos considering you insulted me and said something that is not true. Of course its not taken literally. Priority for aliyos? Besides the fact that no shule I have been to gives kedima for that, it wouldn’t matter. It still doesn’t change the fact that its not to be taken literally. When it comes to aggada you cant just quote something and say “well see it says it here”. Thats not how it works.
I asked, “Do you think there is absolutely no correlation between Torah learning and middos and/or ruchniyus (spirituality)?”
To which you responded, “There is no connection between middos and being an inherently better person.”, which did not answer my question (and was very wrong itself).”
There is a correlation between Torah learning and middos/ruchniyus but I dont know if there is a correlation between better middos and learning all day vs learning 4 hours a day and working. But there is NO correlation between Torah learning and being a better person. What happens if someone learns Torah everyday and gets hit by a car and cant learn anymore after the accident? Is he a worse person? Are women worse people because they dont learn Torah? Of course not.
“It shouldn’t be too difficult to figure out”
I honestly have no idea what part of my statement you are referring to. Im saying we cant know who is better than anyone else. What is wrong about that.
I was referring to your new thread attempts. I don’t see any other blocked posts
?”? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?”? ????? ??? ??”?
Is a nice aggadic message stressing the importance of learning Torah but its not taken literally or taken to say a talmid chacham is a better person than a woman or a man who has a learning disability. Or person A should marry person B.
Im not sure what question I didn’t answer that you are referring to.
Can you tell me why my posts keep getting blocked.
It shouldn’t be too difficult to figure out
More competition = lower prices.
Less competition = higher prices.
Illusory competition (when “competing” stores agree to fixed prices and anti-competitive agreements)= higher prices.
?”? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?”? ????? ??? ??”?
Is a nice aggadic message stressing the importance of learning Torah but its not taken literally or taken to say a talmid chacham is a better person than a woman or a man who has a learning disability. Or person A should marry person B.
Im not sure what question I didn’t answer that you are referring to.
“Do you think there is absolutely no correlation between Torah learning and middos and/or ruchniyus (spirituality)?”
There is no connection between middos and being an inherently better person.
I know a man who had great middos his entire life, but now when he is very old in his 90’s he cant learn anymore and he lost his filter and is kind of rude and blunt with people- saying whatever comes to his mind. He often hurts people’s feelings. But most people dont take it personal because he is very old and thats how old people often are. But he is usually very caring.
Is he a worse person now that hes old and more blunt now than he was 20 years ago?
One must also ask: is a pulpit Rabbi better than a simple school Rabbi? Is a kohen better than a levi? is a levi kollelman better than a yisroel kollelman? is a yisroel kollelman better than a kollelman who is a ger? is a man who learns 4 hours a day better than a woman who doesn’t learn at all? Is someone who can learn well better than someone with a learning disability?
What is the relationship between a superficial or hereditary societal hierarchy structure to individual worth, effort and purpose?
Complicating the question will make it easier to answer: since the answer of who is “better” is impossible to give in olam hazeh.
“The question is are people who learn Torah all day better than people who learn Torah an hour a day. Simplifying the question will make it easier to answer.”
Joseph, if its simpler now, can you provide an answer?
Im looking for pizza with thin crust and exceptional sauce and good amount of cheese.
Where is the best place to get kosher pizza in each town?
Ok now your posts have degraded to full on non-sense mode.
Im honestly not sure about those. But if you are looking to listen to shiurim/music and the like a lot of people use those I mentioned above and they are just as good as a $25-$50 pair in opinion
A bigot is “a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.”
So I guess everyone who makes moral judgments and discriminates anything is bigoted. Please tell Hashem the Torah was bigoted and homophobic for saying Homosexuality is not permitted. Hashem discrminated against all the homosexuals. Thats bigoted. Im glad you think the Torah should be demonized.
You could have said you agree to disagree like I did, without calling me wrong and bigoted as a side-note. It was not called for and only goes to prove the true colors of the Left.
I rarely use this term but I have to in this case,
Dude, just because there are different architectural and social customs throughout history that do change to a certain degree does not mean that certain cultures do not exist and the people who wish to preserve those cultures as much as possible are bigoted.
“and your position while wrong and bigoted is not illogical nor (grossly) inconsistent.”
Calling people bigoted, homophobic, racist xenophobic…. the left’s way of demonizing those who oppose them.
(Im saying you can only ban actions, not belief or skin color. So you can never ban a race, but you can ban a religious action.)
Can we all agree that there is a moral difference between not wanting “others” to move somewhere because: not wanting to increase traffic and eye sores from multi-family dwellings VS hating the Torah and what it stands for and subconsciously feeling guilty and angry for not keeping it?
I think thats the real issue here.
“is ok which while i disagree with, you obviously are entitled.”
Im glad we can civilly agree to disagree
“do you think you should be allowed to ban your non-jewish neighnbors from moving in, and if moved in putting up their holiday decorations etc etc? and should they be allowed to do it to you?”
You can only ban actions, not beliefs. So you can never ban a Jewish or non-Jewish neighbor. But you can say within these several blocks in this town only menoras and permitted. Or only x-mass lights. In dearborn Michigan, within these few blocks, only mosques are permitted. Or, do whatever you want in your own home, but the official policy of this town it to only put up a menorah on main st and in this town its to only put up an x-mas tree on main st. etc
Logistically I dont know how it would work, but there is nothing morally wrong with making such laws. Just like the native americans have certain plots of land where to a certain degree the law is different from the rest of the US.
Its not morally wrong to try and prevent increased traffic and what most people consider eye sores in your town- such as multi-family dwellings with 6 cars crammed into every parking lot etc. There was recently a thread about the traffic problem in Brooklyn right here in the Coffee Room. But if its the Judaism that they dont like, because they hate the Torah and religion in general lehavdeel, thats antisemetic. So you must differentiate between those 2 things.
“Jews are not a race, so it cant be racism.”
“”Mere semantics. It’s the same negative trait.””
No its not semantics. Racism is based on skin color or genetics outside ones control that has no bearing on character. Religion vs non-religion is a different way of life.
Are #s 2 and 3 morally valid, ubiquitin?
“It’s also good old fashioned racism, whereby people dislike people who are different than them. That’s an unpleasant part of human nature, but not supernatural.”
Jews are not a race, so it cant be racism. There is a difference between disliking people who are different than you and wanting to live among people who are the same as you. (and yes thats what I meant by #4)
I admit it, I want to live among frum Jews. Guilty. If it were up to me, every family on my block would be an orthodox Jew.
Let me ask you, why do think the the people in the Hamptons really dont want frum Jews moving in? Is because
1) They dont like Hebrew letters and synagogues and the clothing frum people wear? They dont like walking around seeing people with black hats and tzizit?
2) They are worried it will increase traffic somehow?
3) They are worried Jews will cram 3 families into a single person home and ruin the ascetics of the town?
4) Its supernatural yezter-hara antisemitism
Im just trying to get into their mindset. Saying the stores will close on shabbos is obviously nonsense.
I was referring more broadly to the OPs closing point regarding ALL place need to be a mish mash of everything, not this specific place. I agree with you about the Hamptons case.
Well I disagree about the native americans, part of it was to preserve their way of life and traditions.
Exactly, and it would be geshmak if it could be official policy. The area of land within this square mile radius has certain halachos people must respect, such as dressing modestly. The amish people lehavdeel on their land have their own culture and rules. It would not be a bad thing. Its not hating other people. Its loving your own.
Autonomy to preserve their way of life.
Thats basically what a shtettle was no? I believe Jews had the right to set their own dress code and certain rules within the shtettle. You cant do that today anymore. But I would not complain if orthodox Jews were given a plot of land in the US to set dress code and shabbos regulations and only allow orthodox shules within this land-area.
DA: Thats their business if they want to destroy themselves. But you see the idea of granting a historic culture a certain amount of land and governing body to preserve said culture.
I agree with you about the Hamptons, Im sure many of them are reformed and atheist Jews who just hate Judaism. I have seen the type many times.
“But before those hundreds of years those families arrived and changed the character of the town. Why isnt that a double standard?”
No they didn’t, do you know about the frontier? They created many of the towns. Native americans have RESERVATIONS to preserve their culture. Thats my point. Everyone wants a reservation to preserve their way of life.
“Rich WASP culture? It’s by definition a culture of snobbishness and not wanting undesirables.”
Im not talking about the rich people in the Hamptons, I dont know. Im talking about middle America, New England, upstate NY: most of the ones I have met are the nicest people, family values, pro-Israel. Righteous gentiles.
I am saying they are not antisemitic, because they want this (cultural preservation). And we are no different. Come on, who doesn’t LOVE a block or town composed of all frum yidden.
When you walk home on shabbos you say hi to people, you look into every window and you see a frum family with the lights in front of every window on chanuka. Its geshmack.
Other cultures lehavdeel are the same. Its not a bad thing. Its not immoral for wanting it.
Syag Lchochma, im not sure what you mean. I do care caalling people antisemitic on public forum when they are not antisemitic in my opinion. And I think it would also be great if the majority culture could protect themselves in CERTAIN cities and towns.
DaasYochid: Because in their mind thats their culture and way of life they want to preserve.
There are many places in the US where families goes back hundreds of years in the same town.
ubiquitin: “Though not sure how you would decide which neighborhoods get to maintain character and whichare forced to take in the undeseribles. BTW I was not being facetious.”
Thanks I appreciate that. Thats a good point and like I said there is not an easy answer. It would have to be a governing board that decides. My point was that this is what people really want, and they use the zoning laws to help as much as they can, but its not from antisemitism.
“But should the Germans and Irish have a place for them also? Where their culture and history can thrive as well? Or should everything be a free-for-all where every town is nothing but a mish-mash of everything?”
“””And the problem with that is?”””
The problem with that is when you have a mish mash of everything the town loses its historic character and culture. Just like Israel would if millions of Chinese people moved in.
“Today Riverdale has eight Orthodox synagogues thanks to Big Government enforcing Fair Housing Laws.”
“””Thats great! But should the Germans and Irish have a place for them also? Where their culture and history can thrive as well? Or should everything be a free-for-all where every town is nothing but a mish-mash of everything?”””
There is a difference between a non-Jewish person not wanting the entire United States to look exactly like brooklyn 2015 and being antisemetic.
“There is not an easy answer and you cant do it for EVERY town, such as Brooklyn, since there has to be places for OTHER cultures and “looks” to grow also.
The problem is given US law its hard to preserve the look of ANY town, let alone every town. This is not antisemitism, its just an affection for ones own culture. There is a difference.
Much of New England for example has a certain look and feel going back to the revolutionary war that the local populace wish to maintain. This is not antisemitism.”
Thanks for the “compliment” ubiquitin, but Im not going to play this game with you.
I have addressed everything clearly in my previous posts that people can read and judge for themselves. Its a slippery slope going in a circle over and over again in these types of forums.
charliehall, I responded to your post, are you going to respond to mine?
I already addressed that question in my previous posts. If you look you will find an answer to it. And you still did not answer my question about how you would feel about thousands of Chinese coming into Yerushalayim in droves and putting up dragon symbols, mandarin signs, and roasted pork in their store fronts on every block.
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