newbee

“but eventually these same people became Frey living in Lakewood.”

I have seen it many a time. Where people were not really frum in NYC (because they were basically ignored there Im guessing) and become frum in a small town.

I can’t disagree with your generalization more. I know people people who spent decades going nowhere in ruchnius in NYC and never got into anything and when they moved to a small town they had more access to the rov and more involved in their shule and grew spiritually by leaps and bounds. This is especially true for BTs.

Also for the children of the rov and the more frum people of a small town, they play more of a role and grow in ruchnius where in Brooklyn they disappear into the background.

All I can say is that the people I come across on a daily basis in small towns are generally far more happy than those living in the city, especially BTs they tend to be happier and fit in better in small towns.

I think CTLAWYER said it right being 90 min away is the best of both worlds, though many people wont be able to find that mix and might have to settle for further out .

You dont pay commuting expenses if you dont have to commute to the city in the first place. You can do your Judaica shopping once a month or twice a year in the city or online. Kosher food can be very expensive in the kosher supermarkets and places like costco are often far cheaper.

Learn to cook.

“once you walked a few blocks from the shul you didnt see shabbos anymore and it was Saturday”

What does that mean? There are always people driving wherever you are. In the city, you are more likely to hear loud music and honking cars as soon as you walk out of shule.

Whats the benefit? That you get the privilege of walking past people you barely know or talk to who also happen to keep shabbos on your 5 min walk home from shule?

That personally does nothing for me. I rather have a quiet walk home on a small street while sharing half of the walk with a dear friend.

“It is very different living in a place where Shabbos is Saturday and a place where everything is closed and everyone is walking in their shabbos finery”

I dont know where you are living? certainly not NYC. While many stores on main st are closed, there are plenty of cars and non-Jews blasting music and doing and wearing all sorts of non-shabbosdikeh things.

“But you don’t find him speaking this way about others so maybe you still have what to learn”

I like it, we are all giving each-other mussar, albeit for different things.

I’m not sure who “we all” are but putting him down may not qualify as mussar. My method of choice is usually the delete button 🙂

“I rather my kids/grandkids are in my 2 acre backyard, swimming in my private pool or playing tennis or basketball on my court”

Dude, TMI.

I have heard time and time again from people who have left Brooklyn and Queens to a smaller town and by far most of them confirm they would never go back.

I don’t get why so many frum Jews insist on living in Queens and Brooklyn, especially newly weds that have options to move.

Quality of life is awful there in my opinion- there are so many nicer places to live.

Joseph, pretend for one second you were a ger from Nigeria.

You would feel comfortable being part of a chareidi community where no one would marry you. Viewed it that marrying you would be mechasser their kedusha, thought of you as lowly because you have no yichus and cant have authority etc…. Being part of a community that in your eyes would LITERALLY save your life last…..

You would be fine going to those same people for shabbos meals and constantly being surrounded by the happy families you would never be part of while having no family of your own?

So you can ask the question lehavdeel what about the extremely rare case of a frum mamzer?

Such a person should find a community where he could feel comfortable in to the best of his ability. I dont suggest a known mamzer live in a community full of famous talmeidi chachomim who come directly from Rashi. He probably wont feel good about himself being surrounded by such people all the time.

“private, priorities”

No No, I think we should get it out in the open because it will come out eventually anyway. At least let the person know how you secretly prioritize them. Dont do it behind their back.

If I knew the people inviting me over for shabbos deep down viewed me as “less than” or “not good enough” because of factors beyond my control I would not accept the invitation- it would not make me feel good about myself being among such people.

I would choose a shule me and my family would feel like “one of the family”. Not an outsider who will always be an outsider and less than. I hope the giyores mentioned by the OP finds a shule where she can feel like one of the family in and comfortable. Historically, the ways families and nations made peace was by marrying their sons to their daughters and their daughters to their sons.

I have to say Joseph, while Im sure you have many good traits- given your mindset and black and white hierarchical world views, if I was a ger from Nigeria, I probably would decline an invitation to your house for shabbos. You certainly have the right to exclude from marriage material anyone you wish, but they also have the right to exclude you from shabbos invitations and close friend material.

Joseph, before a Rabbi asks a BT to start paying shule and yeshiva dues out of his own pocket, I think he or she should be told he probably wont find a shidduch in the mainstream community he is paying to be part of.

I would imagine it would not be pleasant being part of a community where you are considered not good enough or appropriate enough to marry into.

-I personally would find it uneasy even being invited over for shabbos to someone who would not consider me or my kids good enough to marry into the mainstream community.

If the girl you are talking about was never told about this possibility/probability she has a real taina.

Why cant I say the reason for the ban marrying gerim might be more an ethnic solidarity than religious thing?

“I know many wonderful gerim and its a shame they cant marry any Syrians.”

For me, the bigger question is how someone can be friends with people in another group who would never consider them suitable marriage material. Wont it be akward at the shabbos table? I would not want to be friends with people in that group in the first place.

How do you make it so there is not animosity between such groups? How effective can a kiruv Rabbi be who would not consider the people he is being mekariv good enough to marry into his native community?

“I didn’t attribute halachic import to a Yisroel marrying a non ger.”

You attributed hashkafic import to it lemeisa.

So regarding race it remains a question, what to do when the parents or the community in general wants to preserve the color and texture of their offspring the same way as it has been for hundreds of years (in this case the color happens to be white) but that excludes others from the shidduch market?

I think the answer is for such people of color to find a community with people like them already in it- then it will be easy to find a shidduch and feel comfortable. It does not only apply to people of color but all sorts of people. Just like BTs might feel more comfortable being part of a community with many BTs and a Rov who is a BT.

Joseph, Yes completely fine with that. Marriage is an agreement and partnership where both sides have to be satisfied in the deal. I encourage people to be open minded though.

So long as they dont try to get other people and society not to date those people.

Besides the fact that being a Rabbi today is not sererah in most cases unless he is a dayan….Like I said, because its an optics, societal and political practice that most nations and peoples have historically enforced. It was the tzurah of klal yisroel. The Torah often takes ancient practices and elevates them. Converts and immigrants to other nations historically have been oppressed and abused. Thats why the Torah says we must not oppress converts. Women of other nations historically have been raped during war by the opposing army, thats why we have the mitzvah of yefas toar- to discourage rape.

Similar to why in America one cannot run for president if he is a “ger”. He has to be born here or his mother must be an American citizen if born abroad. The president of the united states is the ultimate position of “serarah”.

“Do you have a source for yiur reason, and for this chumra that a Yisroel or Levi should keep the dinim of a Kohen?”

I can think of several reasons why a yisroel, levi or chalal should not keep the dinim of a kohen. Especially when it comes to shidduchim.

zahavasdad, its an interesting topic. I know for many chassidim preserving their look is extremely important. I mean they have been wearing the same clothing for literally hundreds of years. I would think this to mean they would want to preserve the color of their offspring as well.

Perhaps there are two social groups within chabad. The ones with yichus dont marry out. And the BTs do not care about race at all.

While I could be wrong, I do not think you will find the kiruv chabad Rabbi marrying his daughters to the BTs he brings in. Which of course could present problems.

Of course, we can never know the full extent behind mitzvos. What I said is based on the Rambam and others but we cant say this is the absolute reason and we can now act accordingly.

That would take us to a very bad place.