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Just curious, does the OP have a skill or college education that can earn him or her a higher paying salary? If not, is this something you or a spouse can work towards?
akuperma: Your argument has many flaws. For one, you cant compare situations where everyone roughed it out together to situations where one person is suffering poverty while surrounded by people with wealth.
In certain countries such as the US, there are people who live in such poverty that they cant afford to see a doctor due to no insurance or very high co-pay, cant afford to pay for their medication at the pharmacy, cant afford air conditioning in the summer, and cant afford enough food to put into their refrigerators. True, in the past people would die due to no medical care and go to shamayim afterwords, today, some people choose to give every dime they earned to doctors to save their lives- only to go back to live in poverty for more years.
Every dor has its challenges. We have our own issues to deal with today, such as it being nearly impossible to live in a state of kedusha and tahara in todays world where atheism, secularism and blatant immodesty creeps into every aspect of society.
There is no easy solution for you. I could be wrong, but dont think any coping tools will help day in and day out living in poverty besides hope of change and tefila. You have to do your best to bring yourself out of poverty, and daven to Hashem to help you by any means necessary. Hatzlacha!
Joseph, I’m sure its hard being surrounded by people who indulge in more gashmius than you do and have it (seemingly) easier than you do and how you dont get any recognition for the extra work put in and mesiras nefesh you undergo.
Its hard living life without recognition. I dont know if the coffee room here is the best place to get it and vent, but when we have true bitchaon that Hashem will reward us fairly, it makes it easier to live without recognition from mere basar veh’dam. I know, easier said than done.
“DY: I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of this issue.”
My rov has for as long as I’ve known him said that you must make an assessment of yourself at the time of the hand-shake, because al pi the rambam its subjective. So when you said I have a fundamental misunderstanding, I assumed you held that my position was not correct according to any poskim.
No biggy
Now, according to this approach, if someone feels that their taiva will overtake them, since its subjective and we are dealing with a yehareg veal yaavor, one must let the woman drown sooner than save her. Chas ve shalom anyone would lack that amount of self-control that he would need to let a woman drown rather than save her- but if so he is not a chassid shoteh. By definition, thats what a yehareg veal yaavor when viewed on a subjective level.
“Benignuman, I am not denying that there is another shittah, just explaining the shittah which assers.”
Oh sorry, I thought you were on the side that said “this is the only valid shita”.
“You’re arguing since you can carry her out of the pool so you should be able to carry her to a cot if she fell asleep on the kitchen floor”
Im arguing if its yehareg vehal yaavor objectively to shake a woman’s hand, you would have to sooner give up your life than shake her hand. Thats what it means.
“It is question of how to understand the Rambam.”
Thanks I always read the rambam that its subjective based on neheneh b’kiruv basar- thats what al tekarev is based on. But ill look into it. Anyway, that would explain the psak I was told.
Its frustrating doing these debates without being able to talk.
Clarity is important. My point is simple: Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor for shaking a woman’s hand is subjective- not objective. Which is what sam said also. Thats why in some cases its mutar to shake a woman’s hand.
You still did not answer my question though why someone would not have to give up his life when faced with shaking a woman’s hand if shaking a hand is objectively Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.
You can copy and paste it or I will try to look it soon, cant right now.
Ill quote sam from another thread who actually summed it up well:
“Thus, since it’s a Lav which is part of the Issur Arayos, we Pasken that it’s Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. I said I won’t debate what’s Derech Chibah or not, because Derech Chibah is inherently very subjective.”
we also see the mechaber says for a husband and wife certain things that are not derech chiba for starngers will be so for ones wife- regarding the eztba ketana mentioned in the gem. look it up inside.
DY: Did you look it up in the rambam?
DY, as far as Yehareig V’al Yaavor is concerned hirhurim is more stringent than derech chiba- not less. We say since its not derech chiba, there wont be hirhurim, and it therefor mutar.
“Even if ou are right its not yehareg val yaavar according to him.”
Exactly, which would make the halacha change when kavod habriyos or chesron kiss is involved.
Im not saying you can shake a woman’s hand. I am saying its not Yehareig V’al Yaavor unless you are neheneh bkiruv basar.
“mik5: “Even if he knows with 100% certainty that shaking her hand will not lead him to have bad thoughts, it is still 100% assur to shake her hand”
That is actually not true. There is a B’feirush Gemara against that.”
If derech chiba WITHOUT being neheneh b’kiruv basar was trully Yehareig V’al Yaavor, as what many people are claiming, then the gem would say one must sooner give his life up to shake her hand even when he is not being neheneh, which it does not. Thats my point.
“Even if he knows with 100% certainty that shaking her hand will not lead him to have bad thoughts and if someone puts a gun to his head…he is still not allowed to do it (according to some opinions).”
You contradict yourself: if all poskim say you cant shake her hand and all poskim say its really Yehareig V’al Yaavor, why is it now merely “according to some opinions” that he cant shake her hand when a gun is pointed to his head? It should be no different. So when a gun is pointed to his head its only some opinions, but when she will be extremely embarrassed or there will be chesron kiss its according to all opinions? You are quoting from websites, but with all due respect you are not making sense.
DY: “That is against a clear psak in Igros Moshe”.
Maybe clarifying why you would be allowed to save her will help you understand this issue as well.
“You seem to have missed my point. It’s not about how much physical contact there is, it’s about the purpose and nature of the contact.”
And my point is the concept of Yehareig V’al Yaavor is based on a personal neheneh b’kiruv basar- not communal etiquette or societal norms. Remember, this is a life or death deoreisa, not derobanan.
“PUH-LEEZ. The halacha is that if a woman needs help (medical assistance, getting up after a fall, etc.), then it’s OK to touch her, while being careful not to have inappropriate thoughts ”
Why can one be careful not to have inappropriate thoughts while picking a woman up out of an ocean, but not a handshake?
Actually, Yehareig V’al Yaavor would dictate that if you know you couldn’t control yourself after the initial neheneh b’kiruv basar, you would not be allowed to save her and must let her drown.
DY, I almost always agree with you, but I have to quote sam on this one: “There is a lot more physical contact in saving a drowning person than a brief handshake. I just don’t get the claim.”
“The fact that some doctors shake hands”
But ALL doctors shake hands. You cant be a doctor and not shake your patients hand. What about a male physical therapist?
“Being permitted to do so demonstrates…”
No, my point is if its Yehareig V’al Yaavor which is based on neheneh b’kriuv basar, why is it permitted to do so? Also please answer from the shach about a doctor, how would this be mutar either. And also how is it possible for one to be a doctor (and many other professions) without shaking women’s hands.
why is rescuing a drowning woman less neheneh b’kiruv basar than a hand-shake? Also, how can you be a doctor and not shake women’s hands? I see all the time frum doctors shaking women’s hands.
Joseph, are you saying that according to Rov Moshe, if a woman is drowning a Jewish man is chiuv to let her drown sooner than save her? If not, why is rescuing a a drowning woman less neheneh than a hand-shake?
“Rav Heinemann only said that about it being permissible to see a doctor of the opposite gender (and him physically handling the patient) and it not being chiba. He did not apply it to any other situation such as handshaking.”
Thats my point from the shach, if you are really saying Yehareig V’al Yaavor a doctor shaking a female patient’s hand or performing another examination would not be any different.
I remember learning in shiur thats what rov moshe was saying.
How would there be orthodox doctors if a handshake is yehareg vehal yavor for everyone?
“so it depends on a rapid self-assessment”
Hence what I said, “and its a question you have to ask yourself very quickly”
Rov Moshe was only saying one cannot be so quick to say “oh handshaking is not derech chiba for me” regarding a yehareg vaalyaavor so easily, but if there is 100% no neheneh be’kiruv basar it is mutar.
Thank you Dr. Freud. Human psychology, isn’t that generalizing to all humans? Why not include gorillas and dolphins and dogs and spiders? You are a species-ist. I think thats immoral.
I guess Hashem was being anti-semetic when He called klal yisroel a stiff necked people. And since you equate anti-semistism to racism, I think its wrong to say Christianity in the middle ages and Islam today is more violent religion than Judaism, thats racist.
I dont mean to sound racist, but in country x pink people make up 13% of the population yet account for 40-50% of the murders, this fact must be censored though, because its “racist”.
homer, that gem in pesachim specifically says that authentic talmidei chachamim that are elyonim beolam hazeh will also be elyonim beolam haba. the elyonim you are referring to are the well-to-do misers, inauthentic rabonim etc.
see the shach lemeiseh women go to male doctors lav davka for pikuach nefesh and if it was yeharog val yavor pikuach nefesh wouldn’t even work, we see that its mutar if there is no neheneh be’kiruv baasar. So for shaking a woman’s hand you have to ask yourself if there is neheneh be’kiruv basar, and its a question you have to ask yourself very quickly.
Speak for yourself, you are generalizing about me that I can’t separate knowledge regarding a majority to action regarding individuals just because some other people choose not to- racist.
No, everyone is judged in olam haba solely based on their free-will, so no one will be able to have any claim against his fellow that he or she had an unequal advantage in olam hazeh.
See derech hashem
RebYidd23,
Its hilarious to me how you feel its morally corrupt even when ones treats every individual individually to say a certain trait, behavior or proclivity applies more to one religious, genetic or ethnic group than another. True silliness in its finest form.
“Rebbe Nachman teaches that everyone has the innate ability to become a tzaddik of the highest order, if they would only apply themselves with their greatest effort.”
In all the examples we mentioned though: man before woman, talmid chacham before layman, kohen before levi- we never say tzadik before a non-tzadik. Because that only applies in olam haba.
How do you define racist and anti-semetic?
That saying pink people over the age of 25 on average blast rap music in their car more than purple people over 25?
Or that its saying “I dont like pink people.”
Or thats its not hiring a pink person for a job, simply because they are pink.
Or that you murder pink people.
No one truly believes in total equality. No one believes a nazi is equal to a talmid chacham. What you are referring to is just equality. That a man should be equal to a woman, or a kohen should be equal to a levi or someone who is a natural talmid chacham should be equal to someone who tries his best but never attained stature. The simple answer is in olam hazeh there is not just equality, but in olam haba Hashem will work everything out.
Justice is a Jewish value. The fact that Hashem is just and treats everyone justly (i.e. based or ones bechira alone, and not based on what sex they are, who there father is, or what genetic advantages they were given in olam hazeh).
I like to sit and sleep on the floor to mourn the beis hamikdash in preperation for tishabav. I like to gradually eat less and less and cry more and more until after tishabav. Then on the tenth, I will use the rest of the summer to prepare for next tishabav by reading depressing Jewish history books- unless moshiach comes hass veshalom, and the tishabav we all know and love with cease to exist.
“Based on your comment, the writer was being accurate, not anti Semitic”
Its very possible he was being accurate if the writer was not referring to all the Jews but rather to a certain number of them. If so, it is very sad that they made a chilul Hashem.
lesschumras: I hope the yiddin there dont make a chillul Hashem and understand and respect the sensitivities of the long-time local residents that they dont want their rural and quiet community turning into another brooklyn with over-population, loud noise and pollution. I wouldn’t want it either, who would? Thats probably why they live there in the first place. I also hope they respect the zoning regulations and culture.
I never said it wasn’t racist, I said its being racist without malice. And as long as you treat each person as an individual, there is nothing wrong with saying most or many people of this genetic, ethnic or religious group share a common trait- either for good or bad.
Sorry Sam, its not my racist self or a confirmation bias- just common sense. You are wrong again, as usual (oh wait, is that confirmation bias also :))
I hope the letter in the Jewish journal was referring to the stereotypes of Rachmanim, Bayshanim, and Gomlei Chasadim
I dont understand your problem. People say that when experience and logic unfortunately causes them to acknowledge the validity of a stereotype without an emotional malicious desire to do so.
Example: Im not trying to be racist, but why is it that pink people are usually so loud in public places when green, yellow and purple people usually keep their voices to a moderate level, certainly after the age of 25? I wish it wasn’t true, but experience has unfortunately caused me to see the validity of this stereotype of pink people.
I guess most contemporary poskim hold by the tzitz that its not referring to a case of life.
“For all we know, the escaped prisoners may have access to a computer and may be posting here in the Coffee room with us.”
I am one the the escapees. I had to kill the guy who used this computer and found this site open on his browser.
Does anyone know if it was assur for me to break out of prison? Is there a daas yochid I can be somech on? Or do I have a chiuv to go back? I just did a teshuva gemura for that last murder, so Im all good in terms of that. Time is of the essence.
Joseph, thats why we have a rov of a community to pasken for us. Did you ask your rov the question yet?
Sam2:The beis yoseph says its reffering to saving life mamish. The main mitzvah being talmud torah but mitzvos in general.
For women i think it was ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? Go ask a rov lemaisa if you should save a man before a woman all else being equal and you will get the same answer. If you dont, I would like to know who.
I have yet to find one Rabbi tell me l’maaisa we save a man before a woman in an emergency, or that we follow any of that hierarchy when it comes to saving a life l’maaisa.
But I thought we were not allowed to say these things, and are only allowed to say that women have more kedusha than men, and the only reason they are pattur from talmud torah is because they have so much kedusha to begin with, they dont need to learn.
Men are saved before women are (all other variables being equal) because men have more kedusha since they learn Torah. Its a gem in horayos.
I remember a rabbi saying they got it backwards on the titanic- the men should have been saved before the women- because men have more kedusha since they are chiuv in talmud torah.