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“do you agree that anybody who is more outraged over the killing of a lion than over the actions of ISIS (for example) has a serious lack of moral clarity?”
Yes for sure, such people have skewed priorities. ISIS bothers me to no end and I was traumatized by the things I have seen. I am so outraged how not enough is being done I try not to think about it because there is nothing I can do about it anyway.
“I actually considered that but didn’t know if you would be okay with it”
lol go for it
I would have settled for Hunter of Trolls, but this is just as good. thank you
I actually considered that but didn’t know if you would be okay with it
Mods, you can disagree with whatever you want, but is it policy here to change ones subtitle to a disparaging name?
This is the second time this has happened over a heated thread.
You have the option to close the thread and disagree with me, but when you change my name it applies to every other post I have written.
~My hashkafos come the Torah and common sense.
~ As for the millions of people throughout the world who were outraged by this AND his patients who willingly chose not to use him as a dentist, well I guess they are too dumb to see how smart you are.
~No Im not confusing anything both animal cruelty and species conservation are driving factors. Yes I personally would have been less upset if a less vulnerable and less intelligent species such as a deer would have been hunted.
(PS, kindly change my subtitle back)
Avram in MD, I’m surprised that you called what the dentist did wrong and cruel and then say people cant point out that its wrong and cruel.
I will say publicly condemned instead of shamed, if that makes you feel better.
Behaviors that are bad and cruel (as YOU said they were) and lead to the further endangerment of species SHOULD be publicly condemned.
Shoo, get out of here troll, shoo shoo.
“I agree that what the dentist did was wrong and cruel.”
Nothing wrong with shaming and boycotting someone who has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars over his life doing “wrong and cruel” things.
Death threats- that goes way too far.
Talking about lions and eagles and hunting. Times are different today, these species are now or have been endangered. Think about if these species would have been killed off from the beginning, how many metaphors and lessons would have been lost from Tanach and gemara?
Ill mention one:
Be bold as a leopard, light as an eagle, swift as a deer, and strong as a lion le’asos ratzon avicha bashamayim.
“Newbee has a point here.”
Thank you. I don’t get why some people are against being outraged over animal cruelty.
Regarding fish, you can ask the same thing about bugs. While you shouldn’t kill a fish and “torture” it for no reason, certain animals register pain differently. Those with higher mental abilities register pain more.
If you ever stepped on a dog’s tail for instance by accident and saw the dog stop smiling and start crying you can tell is feels pain.
“Nah, that’s just who Popa is.”
Well, you know him better than I do.
“What do you think people should be more be more outraged about”
It goes without saying people should be more outraged about the ISIS atrocities. Their brutality is unbearable. But its the same type of person usually who will be outraged by ISIS beheadings as, lehavdeel, the torturous killing of a lion. And its the same type of person who won’t really be bothered by ISIS who won’t really be bothered by the torture of a lion.
Do you think ISIS fighters were at all bothered by what happened to the Cecil the lion?
-Cruelty and desensitization begets more cruelty and desensitization
Anyway, I’m not sure where you’re getting your ideas from why you don’t think this prolonged needless death of the lion is immoral.
Its certainly not from the Torah, which apposes cruelty to animals.
“Sam2, if you’re still following this retarded thread”
Seems like you have a lot invested in this “retarded thread”. I think your continual sarcasm is a passive-aggressive way of putting down others who actually care about animal cruelty.
Shoo, get out of here troll, shoo shoo.
popa_bar_abba, I have no more energy for trolls today.
I am going to set a troll trap for you. Hunting or not.
Additionally, you mentioned permits.
If the king or in our case the people decides it is illegal to kill lions at all, because they value Hashem’s creations and know beautiful and exotic animals face extinction, or because collectively we feel earning money is not a legitimate reason to kill these creatures, they can make killing them illegal.
Thats why you can’t get a permit and go kill whatever you want.
If the animals benefit the public or kingdom in anyway they certainly can make it illegal to kill them even for parnasa.
Because you get what you legitimately need for parnasa in the way that causes a minimum amount of pain to the animal. Certainly, it is wrong to hunt a lion with a crossbow and torture it, when you can tranquilize it and kill it painlessly.
And in this case, the guy was killing it to put his head on his wall.
This dentist paid over 50,000 to kill a well known lion that people were attached to and was being studied remotely in Oxford.
The proud lion, after being lured out of the nature preserve, was was shot with a crossbow.
Now wounded and in agonizing pain, not knowing why, the lion fled into the woods for 2 days struggling for survival. After trying to stay alive for 2 days it was shot. The lion was then beheaded and its head was mounted on a wall.
Why would you legitimately want hide today? There is a huge surplus of clothing to choose from.
Why would you hunt for it when we can capture the animals easily today and can kill the animal painlessly.
But there isn’t a need for them. And if there was wild lions would quickly become completely extinct the way things are going. And if they could kill them for a valid need it should be done most efficiently, not allowing them to slowly die over an entire week.
“Hunting is not banned. It is muttar for food/hides.”
Very good. Baruch Hashem, today we have plenty of ways of clothing our bodies without killing lions.
popa_bar_abba, You like me, thanks, good to know you like people at least.
~I’m glad we all agree now that outrage was warranted for killing Cecil in that fashion.~
The End
Hashem bans it.
“Failure to do so will result in retribution from Hashem.”
If divine retribution and rabbinic ordinances is not a ban I don’t know what is.
No it does ban it in a practical sense. It morally bans it. We must listen to our Rabbis. And the Rabbis say based on the Torah we cannot torture animals needlessly.
When it says “demands” that means banning it in a practical sense.
In the US, many laws were immoral and have been changed.
They used to needlessly kill buffalo by the thousands and the bald eagle was nearly made extinct due to sheer ignorance and carelessness. The generation of the 19th century was one of the most environmentally careless and exploitative in history.
Brutal, inhuman slavery was legal as well for most of the 19th century in the US. Yes, that was immoral too. And sadly people used the Bible to justify it.
No, because its a Torah value not to be cruel to animals, a law that permits prolonged animal cruelty for sheer pleasure is immoral.
DaasYochid, thought it was obvious I did not refer to a technical law. I have since stated this explicitly several times.
“Any law that allows this behavior without another law or moral code banning this behavior is immoral and should be changed.”
This concept of banning animal cruelty is based on Torah values.
Asking for common sense here.
Sounds good Joseph. BTW, whats your address and phone number? So I know where to go and how to reach you.
Ok im going to retract it for you Popa here it goes……
“You should either retract or clarify that statement.”
There is a difference between halacha and Torah values. I already did. If a law allows this act, but another law or code within the society prevents this act, then its not immoral. Thought that was common sense. You can be a menuval bereshut ha’Torah.
“Halacha is not immoral obviously. Bull fighting is immoral. A society that permits bull fighting is immoral.”
popa bar abba: troll extraordinaire lol
You are lucky its immoral to hunt trolls. (Plus, they dont cook very well anyway).
Thats why I asked Joseph my initial question, because it sounds like he wants to literally choose kid by kid who is allowed to be a friend and interview every parent prior to the first playdate.
popa_bar_abba, even though you are trolling,
I am in a place where I can’t do much else at the moment, so I have no problem repeating what I previously wrote (until the mod closes the thread that is).
“I definitely did not read the essay you pasted above, if that’s what you’re asking. To answer your question, see DY’s response above.”
But that makes no sense and is a copout answer.
This is a fairly simple point backed up by numerous examples in the Torah guys. Not sure what you are confused about.
Halacha is not immoral obviously. Bull fighting is immoral. A society that permits bull fighting is immoral.
Is popa_bar_abba going to continually ignore this point?
You can’t regulate them against every little thing you disagree with the parents with. It’s not practical. As long as the parents are shomer shabbos, kosher, basically frum etc what else can you do?
You can’t exactly interrogate each parent to see how militantly feminist tv has made them and the like. Unless they wear it on their sleeves.
You can’t exactly interrogate each parent to see if they subtly treat each child worse or better or if they would save your kids life behind others based on the misha in horayos.
Can you?
popa_bar_abba’s logic:
“Rov Ovadia Yoseph is an apikores because he called to ban bull-fighting world wide”
Just out of curiosity, did you read any of the examples brought from the Torah mentioned in the essay? Or are you continually ignoring this point on purpose?
I think Israeli Politics deserves far more attention, time, and dialog devoted to it by people who don’t live there than there currently is.
It’s like people could care less about it.
“If you hunt in a farm like that dentist dude, then it’s not a sakana so it’s muttar.”
“This juicy bit of apikorsus brought to you by the letter A”
“No. I’m not planning to go hunting. And if I did, I’d do it in a farm like that dentist.”
“We should davka go hunting!”
-Popa’s words of wisdom
popa_bar_abba’s logic:
“Rov Ovadia Yoseph is an apikores because he called to ban bull-fighting world wide”
Just out of curiosity, did you read any of the examples brought from the Torah mentioned in the essay? Or are you continually ignoring this point on purpose?
popa_bar_abba’s logic:
“Slowly killing an animal for a week for the sheer pleasure of killing is immoral, corrupts the soul and is tzar bale chaim BUT Slowly killing an animal for a week for the sheer pleasure of killing is fine so long as someone else makes money off it.”
First of all, the primary point is that hunting, especially in this brutal fashion, is immoral and should be made illegal if not already illegal. Indeed, from what I have read, both the dentists and the poachers with him were breaking the law. Any law that allows this behavior is immoral and should be changed.
Halacha does not allow breaking the law, and illegal poachers and bull fighters are not starving or freezing to death once they are caught and prevented.
According to your logic, bull fighting should be permitted because the bull fighters will starve and freeze to death if not. Rov Ovadia obviously says you are 100% wrong.
“If you hunt in a farm like that dentist dude, then it’s not a sakana so it’s muttar.”
Rav Ovadia asserts that even non-Jews are forbidden to conduct bullfights. However, one may ask that a specific prohibition to conduct bullfights does not appear on the list of the Seven Noachide Laws that the Torah obligates all mankind to abide by.
Rav Yehuda Amital (in a lecture at Yeshivat Har Etzion) answers that we see that the Torah expects and demands every human being to behave decently. Moreover, the Torah demands every human being to refrain from engaging in immoral activities, even if an activity is not formally prohibited by the Noachide code. Failure to do so will result in divine retribution.
popa: “Why do you object? Why do you assume the noda biyehuda wouldn’t have agreed with me? Why is it less of a good reason than parnassah?”
Your logic makes no sense. Killing lions for the thrill and pleasure of killing is immoral and destructive to the soul. Look at the various cases in the Torah I mentioned before.
Earning money by causing killing for the pleasure of killing is just as bad!
When it says for pasnasa, it means for food or fur so people dont starve and freeze.