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“smerel,
(3) is patently not correct”
Sure it is. Real Christians believe in the events of the Torah, they’re just mevatel the laws. Today, not only are there more Atheists, but even most Christians deny pretty much everything they’re supposed to believe.” Oriental refers to objects NOT people. You have Oriental Rugs, but Asian people.
This is a pet peeve of mine, its use is bigoted and ignorant.”Except when you say Asian, you actually mean Chinese/Japanese/Korean Asians. There are practical reasons to use the words Brown and Oriental, and most real Asians prefer not being lumped together. Unfortunately, white liberals such as yourself are aggressively trying to make it impossible to say anything by pretending you speak for other races, as usual… you don’t. edited slightly.
“Neveille: You probably wrote something “too right-wing”.”
Probable, but I don’t recall it being anything like that. Another easy way to get edited is by saying something that we all know is true about the Litvishe velt, but this site would prefer to censor it the same way chabad sites censor meshichism.That’s one way to shift the blame.
I don’t see what you edited out. Did I typo a swear or something by accident?
“RG, You are ethnocentric. If people don’t follow your beliefs, they are radical.”
Laskern: he’s trolling. On this thread he’s an MO zionist, on some threads he’s Chassidishe, etc. Nobody knows what his beliefs really are. He might not even be frum for all we know. He has this thing of taking already divisive topics (drinking on Purim, Hallel on fake holidays, the 4 questions, staying up on Shavuos, etc) and doing a phony “frum-feminist” schtick. Just scroll through the threads for the last few months. The username that implies he’s a female is all part of the act. Part of me actually finds it really amusing.LOT:
As has been discussed before on the CR, the logic of what you’re saying sounds good, but it’s not the reality. BT’s are far more likely to go OTD than FFB’s. I don’t think it’s entirely their fault, but it’s clearly how it is.The fact is, most BT’s start around college time. They aren’t going to reach the point of “I can’t believe it’s not FFB!” within 3 or 4 years. The traditional kiruv system (excluding Chabad) does not put a big emphasis on integration. They just assume BTs will magically know how to integrate after they leave yeshiva, which is why half the time they end up hopelessly lost afterwards and go OTD. None of this is their fault. It’s a broken system.
When they do try to shidduch BT’s with FFB’s, we all know we aren’t talking about right-wing, Lakewood-style FFB’s.
As a side note, from what I’ve seen, Chabad’s system does emphasize integration, and it produces successful BT/FFB marriages (albeit, maybe not BT/Gezhe).
edited – Did you really think we would let that through?
“If you are saying hallel on Y”H, can you play music, being that it’s during the Omer?”
I can assure you that roughly 0% of the people observing “Y”H” are makpid on avoiding recorded music during the omer.
“They are all Jews,no? If you have a problem with of these “marriages”, you are in need of some serious soul searching.”
So, you’d be fine marrying a Reform Jew, I assume? They are all Jews, no?I don’t think it’s a good idea. Most BT’s and gerim are not 100% integrated by the time they’re 20-25 years old. They maintain a lot of their weird quirks and judgementalism for the first several years.
I think there’s an argument that marrying a FFB or a semi-FFB would accelerate the integration, but I’m not sure that task should fall on a normal (non-kiruv) person unless they really want it to.
Maybe we should institute a minhag of women saying tachanun on that day (even though they normally don’t) just to make it 100% clear that they aren’t tzionishe.
“NC actually the heter for shaving for work during sefira is the same heter as shaving for work during ch”m.”
Absolutely not. Shaving during CH”M is much more machmir. Mainstream opinion is that work appearance is not actually enough to justify it for chol hamoed. People just seem to confuse it with sefira unfortunately. It has nothing to do with aveilus during chol hamoed. Those who keep second sefira also can’t shave then.
Also, sphardim aren’t the only ones who keep first sefira. Nearly every normal person in America does. And, yes, I know you can find Ashkenazi sources that say second is better, but it just hasn’t caught on in reality.
“There is possibly a big difference between this scenario and one where the boy decides on his own to grow his peyos. Then, since it was not part of his chinuch (meaning his parents didn’t give them to him, or at least encourage it or praise the change), they are more likely to come off.”
I’m not sure I would agree with that assessment. I think, in the case we’re talking about, the boy will never interpret them a really being meakev since his father didn’t have them. Whereas, someone who becomes more frum and decides to grow them out will see it as being halachically based rather than a seemingly random shtick they were raised with.
I’m not denouncing the trend at all. I’m just agreeing with the posters who have asserted that it’s really just a trend, not a shift is halachic shittah.
Joseph:
I can confirm that I have never seen a short-jacket, yeshivish father walking alongside a kid with a bekishe. I was talking about young kids as in ages 6-9 roughly.I don’t assume that these kids are going to keep the peyes forever, especially when their fathers don’t really hold of it b’shittah. I interpret this as a kind of kids-only minhag, which is weird. Harmless, but just a wee bit bizarre.
I don’t know anything about this person, but I believe that whenever someone is going to walk away with a victory, they endorse that person to maintain good bonds after they take office.
“Sorry, I had no idea that you were only referring to tevilas Ezra.”
That was my mistake. I had only seen that one post.He talks about the kapote in regards to how to make it such that it doesn’t require tzitzis (rounding off the back corner). That doesn’t imply one has to wear one. Most Roshei Yeshiva still do wear them, which brings me to another point: we don’t copy our rabbis every move in the Litvish world. We have a concept of differentiating (as is the case with the R”T tefillin psak mentioned before). If wore a kapote to a litvish yeshiva in which the Rosh Yeshiva wore a kapote, and the bochrim didn’t, you’d probably get in trouble.
“All this points to the fact that peyos are not new, and are not only Chasidish. ”
Who ever said they were new? They’re based in a d’oraisa; of course they aren’t new. I think the OP was talking about the families you see walking around where the father has no peyes yet the children do. It’s pretty common and perplexing.Shuali,
Sorry, you had made a lot of comments. I was responding specifically to the one regarding tevelas Ezra, with which the MB is meikel (this is common knowledge), and R”T tefilliln, which he says normal people shouldn’t wear due to bal gaavah (also a well known psak). Machlokes with chassidim has nothing to do with either of these halachos. As for payos, I’m sure it’s brought down somewhere, but you don’t seem to be disputing the required length.For coat length, are you really suggesting that if the M”B makes no mention of coat length that we should just assume he assur’s short coats? I don’t follow that logic.
Wolf:
You mean why would a school call itself a Bais Yaakov instead of just a “Jewish girls school?” Same reason a place would call itself a yeshiva or mesivta instead of a “Hebrew Day School.” The titles signal the type of institution.
“Whatever you can do on Chol Hamoad you can do during Safiras HoOmer BH O’CH 493”
It’s not a one to one relationship. If it’s mutar to shave during Chol Hamoed, then the same circumstance would be mutar to shave during sefira. However, there’s a lot more room to be meikel with sefira than with Chol Hamoed. People get heterim to shave for work during sefirah, which they would not get during chol hamoed.I thought Sphardim shaved during sefira? I know Rav Ovadia was matir shaving during the 3 weeks, so I might be confusing the two.
Shuali:
The Mishnah Berura is meikel (in how he poskens) on just about every single halachah you mentioned.We posken by sifrei halachah, not by “gedolim biographies” and pictures.
That’s not even the slightest bit similar to anything you said in your last comment.
“Be sure to visit the regional branch of the famous Dunder Mifflin paper company in Scranton. Also fun is schrute farms where they grow beets.”
And Poor Richards, which is the only thing that’s actually real and there. Not that I would know, because I obviously don’t understand any of these references 😉
In response to the OP:
I have never witnessed the situation you described of ear-peyes people being judgmental and thinking everyone else is more modern than them. Are you sure you aren’t projected what you think they think?Also, it’s a major trend for kids, not adults. I assume the logic is that people want their kids to be able to have peyes if the kids want, rather than committing them to not having them. They’ll probably all end up cutting them when they enter the workforce.
Joseph, just to clarify, you’re purposely responding with an answer that has nothing to do with what we said, right?
“Why is viewing that the rebbe will be Moshiach pasul them from being part of a minyan?”
I believe you misunderstood (assuming you’re referring to what I think you are). That poster was referring to the practice in Chabad shuls to count non-religious people. A person who is publically mechalal Shabbos b’meizid is pasul l’aidus according to seemingly every shittah other than Chabad. This point is brought up far less than all the other for some reason. I suspect due to quasi political correctness reasons.
By the way, about the sukkah, please see recent threads in the CR for thousands of posts debating the topic.
” Let’s say this forum was full of Open “Orthodox” Jews who look and sound like regular frum Jews, but honestly believe in things such as intermarriage, toevah marriage, and shechita as a tzar ba’alei chayim issue, there would be no end of posts of Torah Jews arguing that they are mistaken and their beliefs are not what frum Yiddishkeit is about”
Funny, the CR actually did used to sort of be that way. They’re all gone now. I assume we were mekarev them and now they’re all too frum for the internet 😉
“There was a Rebbe (Skulener) who just passed away, who had a massive levaya, who lived with tznius, without a massive PR machine.”
Skulen didn’t have so much adversity that there were scads of websites dedicated to bashing on them (I’m not referring to this site, there are/were specific anti-Chabad sites out there). Also, they weren’t in kiruv; Part of Chabad’s PR is about misconceptions about Orthodoxy b’klal, not just Chabad. Chabad should be able to defend itself against hate. I don’t deny them that. What I deny is that all criticism coming against Chabad, even halachic criticism from frum yidden is sinas chinom. The sinas chinam against Chabad is mostly coming from frei or Modern folks.
Lit, you don’t really think ALL the criticism of Chabad is valid, right? What people are saying here mostly is, but there’s a big, mean world out there that they have to deal with a lot more than we do.
Joseph:
It’s not like they’re learning gemara. Nobody ever said it’s assur to tell a woman how to keep kosher, Shabbos, etc.I personally also don’t really see how it was such a big chiddush to have girls going to Jewish girls’ schools instead of public schools or homeschooling (presumably the alternative). The wikipedia on it makes it sounds like, at the time, girls had gotten so stupid they didn’t even know how to keep shabbos and therefore they had to start it as an emergency. I don’t buy that.
“Let me mirror back your words:
Problem with litvish/Yeshivish/Sefard/Yekka community is there is no rebbe so no direction.”
Come on… You and I both know you’re smart enough to know how nonsensical that comment is.I don’t want to be accused of jumping over to the Chabad ship and taking part in censorship of all criticism, but people might ought to consider the recent news in regards to whether or not now is an appropriate time to keep the Chabad Wars going. All halachic points will have already been made on other threads. This PR debate I really don’t see the point of. Chabad has organized PR because they have to. Any kiruv place is going to have PR practices that some might see as deceptive; I don’t think Chabad’s are any worse than those of Litvish kiruv you just notice it more because Chabad does way more kiruv than anyone else.
The Belzer Ruv was 16, right?
“It’s important to note, the average litvish yeshiva bachur does not get an equivalent education in litvish haskafa as do chassidic bachurim in chasidus. In fact they really get very very little.”
This is important; it’s what I was getting at earlier. Chassidus and Musar are not comparable. For one, a lot of sifrei chassidus are peirushim on the Torah rather than stand-alone sforim. When a litvish Rabbi writes a commentary, we don’t call it “Litvus” or musar. Musar is a stand alone subject. Someone could be a Litvish talmid chochom and never learn a word of musar in his life. At the end of the day, Litvish just implies stam, Orthodox Ashkenaz without any bells or whistles like Chassidus.
“No, I know that Chassidic girls go to school. Just why isn’t everyone all mixed in one BY?”
The same reason boys don’t all go to the same mixed yeshivas.“Also what do you mean by their “BY”.”
It’s come to be a general term.If they did it per capita, the blue states would probably still fare worst. The blue states don’t just have big Jewish populations. They have other groups who tend to hate the Jews. These ADL reports usually reveal the reality of what I’m talking about.
“There’s way more yiddishkeit in the east coast.”
If living in the NYC area were a requirement for being frum, half the American Jewish population would go OTD. People don’t just happen to live in places other than the northeast. It’s simply not for everyone. The stereotype of New Yorkers being miserable and mean-spirited is not entirely baseless (I’m not necessarily talking about the yidden).
I’m curious about the OP. Did you think Chassidishe girls didn’t go to school at all, or is the question just why many of them tend to call their Beis Yaakov’s something other than Beis Yaakov?
Kluger:
Shmini Atzeres is not acharon shel sukkos. It’s its entirely own holiday. However, I will admit that I’ve erroneously explained it as the last days of sukkos to my goyish employers in the past because it’s just easier to explain that way. Hosanah Rabbah is not a chag. Shushan Purim is not, by any stretch of the imagination, “the last day of Purim.”Pesach is the only holiday with an acharon. How is this thread still going? Why complicate something so extremely pashut?
Health: it’s no worse than NYC or Monsey. When people talk about LA as being expensive, they’re comparing to middle America. I know people who have had the experience that it’s significantly cheaper than NYC.
You’re probably right that Lakewood is still more affordable. I’m not sure LA is for the Lakewood types anyway.
Lakewhut:
That point he was making was that if people are meikel on goyish music they might as well just be meikel on music during sfirah? A sort of ironic commentary on the common practice in America to take one of those things more seriously than the other?The constituency of people outside Chassidim who are makpid on avoiding non-Jewish music is rapidly decreasing. Accordingly, the size of the group of people who listen to goyish music, but avoid all music during the sfira is growing. I personally don’t really have any problem with that.
Is it mutar to go to a baseball tosif game on acharon shel pesach?
If we’re all talking about the same thread, then what Milhouse described was basically the same thing we were describing: a down-payment, a default on the credit, and automatic repossession by the Rabbi. What Joseph described was completely different and wrong which is the common 2-complete-sales misconception.
Do you actually think it works that way, Joseph, or are you taking one out of RGP’s book and purposely trying to misconstrue the halachah as some kind of weird joke?
“It really pains me that literally thousands of volumes of very deep knowledge have been boiled down to whether Chabadniks sleep in the Sukkah (a minhag they have kept for hundreds of years, alongside prominent Litvisher figures who had nothing to say of the matter) and whether they eat before davening or not”
Yeah, it’s a real shame when people base their opinions on the halachah rather than on buzz phrases like “we’re intellectual and everyone else is emotional.”
“The “goy” that bought the chometz turns out to be a Jew or a Safek Jew, as is learned much to everyone’s chagrin after Yom Tov.
What do you do now?”Safek chometz shaver alav Pesach l’kulah. The situation of a vadai Jew doing it as a prank would be very unlikely.
“ubiq: Milhouse and I have refuted your point in the other thread.”
What point was that?
Why wouldn’t it just make it hefker like a ger (without heirs) who dies with chometz before Pesach?
Musar is not to Litvaks as Chassidus is to Chassidim.
“May I also suggest that those who treat it as a ha’rama, or as less than a 100% ”
No. People who have a minhag not to sell chometz gamor are not hashkafically opposed to machiras chometz. Even they don’t consider other peoples’ sold chometz gomur to be chometz sh’over alav pesach.“There absolutely is a buying back. I’ve seen it myself.”
It seems like the process you’re describing is the same is what we’re saying. My only point is that I’m not a fan of the lashon “buying back.” The goy didn’t pay yet. It’s just semantics, but I think it leads to a lot of the mistakes people have made on this thread.You don’t really sell the chometz and then buy it back; that’s just the conversational lashon we use. He gives you a down payment and then you repossess it when he fails to pay the full amount after Pesach. The concept of the goy saying “I’m keeping the chometz” is basically a fantasy dreamt up by people who don’t understand how it works.
If the mashgichim were pasul l’aidus why would it ever have had a chazakah? Just because it falsely advertised as kosher?
I’m not saying I believe the story, but nobody ever said something gets an instant chezkas kashrus the second some fried out person claims it’s kosher.
“The sevara is that here it wasn’t ‘converted’ by Jews–already before it reached the hands of even the secular Israeli Jews who translated it, it had become largely associated with the ‘neutral’ rainbow gatherings and the like”
I understand what you’re going for here, but that did not seem to be the argument you’d been using this whole time. It’s similar to a conversation about Halloween: today 99% of goyim think it’s an arbitrary, secular, fun holiday. And, interestingly, many of them have elevated Thanksgiving to the point of being pseudo-religious. Yet, we clearly go with the original source in determining whether or not we partake.
“Neville, go back to the Yeshiva and learn to understand the difference.”
In other words, you don’t know either. Well, I’m glad to see I’m not alone.
Reporters just confirmed that when David Duke was a young boy, he walked into a kosher supermarket and couldn’t even tell that it was made with the Spirit of Judaism. The rest is history.
Well, you know, it’s like us Lubavitchers say, there are 2 types of Jews: Lubavitchers, and people who don’t know they’re Lubavitch yet. We probably understand each other so well because we’re both hard core Lubavitchers, regardless of how you identify.