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“They know they are incorrect but don’t care.”
This is halachically worse according to everyone (except maybe you if I’m understanding correctly).“And there you go, another artificial division: “Open Orthodox”. ”
What point do you believe you’re making by throwing in the word “artificial?” The differences between these groups are very real. Just because you romanticize some probably non-existent past in which Sphardi communities didn’t differentiate between frum and frei people doesn’t change anything about today’s metzius, nor does it form any kind of coherent argument. Do you realize there are actual halachic differences between someone who is shomer shabbos and someone who isn’t? If you’d prefer us to use terms like posul l’aidus instead of “Conservative/Reform,” that’s fine, but you seem to prefer using English words for everything based on your Eretz Yisroel thread. Just let us know your preference on this meaningless, superficial topic so that you can move onto the next.“Less than 50% of Sephardim don Tefillin.”
Why do you call them tefillin instead of phylacteries? Is that because you think you’re part of an exclusive club that’s frummer than the rest of us? Gosh, you’re such a jerk.
Islam.
Given the fact that 99.9% of your posts are unadulterated racism/self-loathing, and lies, I think you know why they aren’t going through. I kind of surprised they’ve let your account last this long. You don’t have an element of fun like RGP did, so I don’t really see the point.
“We don’t see such artificial divisions among Sephardim. Why not?”
Are you kidding? This is coming from someone who seems to go to an Open Orthodox shul.Obviously the people responsible for the initial schisms were over an issur (eg. the founder of Reform Judaism). You question is if the Ashkenazim who didn’t break away from Orthodoxy are also over an issur just to having the audacity to exist?
I really hope you’re a troll so that nobody this mentally disturbed exists in the real world.
If you know people and are planning on getting a job through the frum, heimish hiring system in an NY community, then you don’t need to worry about having an Ivy league degree. If you don’t know anyone and you’re just planning on applying to job opening online, you’ll have a bad day probably either way.
The dati leumi are essentially a type of meshichist (no relation to the Chabad type). I’m not sure they would approve of that title, but it’s works for ease of use.
Avi has explained it before. The two types of moshiach, Rav Kook and 1948 stuff being the first, etc. I’m not endorsing it, but if the question is how they can say it’s not galus when moshiach hasn’t come, you can ask directly/respectfully and Avi K will tell you the official answer.
“I do feel though, that they incapable of deriving what the correct halacha is, since they never learnt it in depth.”
Since when is the idea for bochrim to be able to posken for themselves?“if they learnt differently, there would be a different flaw. (like they couldn’t learn in depth)”
I don’t believe the OP was talking about learning in depth as in learning a ton of different meforshim on a sugya. He was speaking of the learning style in American yeshivos where they read half a sentence and sit around all day squeezing their brains to figure out where its going instead of just reading the rest to get the full context. I personally do not believe this is a productive use of time.“Neville, that congregation, the oldest in the U.S., used to be Sephardic as it was started by them in the 1600s.”
Yes, we are talking about the same one. Today, it is as I described it. I have no idea when it switched, how gradually, or if it were ever really that Orthodox; I’m not an expert. I just happen to know the current status of it, and that some people who hold of it like to work in the inferiority of Ashkenazim into random conversations.
Joseph:
Correct. I’m not really sure why I even commented as I did. Someone asked what the potential issue is, and DY answered correctly.I think that’s roughly what my wedding cost. I have no sympathy what so ever for the frum people who spend a fortune on stupid stuff to have a lavish wedding and then whine about how expensive it was. It was their choice to spend the money.
“The רמ”א in אה”ע כ”א ה says public displays of affection between husbands and wives are אסור.”
And, we posken that way, except at weddings.
“In my personal experience, the guys that learn halacha (Tor and S”A) during the afternoon seder, which is not the majority, tend to learn more halacha regarding Shabbos, daily life and niddah.”
Meanwhile the majority of bochrim look like am haartzim the second they leave the yeshiva campus and are faced with basic halachic dilemmas.“but it doesn’t negate the flaws if we learnt differently.”
The flaw is that they don’t learn halachah. Learning halachah would, by definition, negate this flaw. The derech halimud is either based on the assumption that they learn halachah in their free time (they don’t) or that they learned enough in their upbringings (they didn’t). Maybe when the derech halimud was thought of, these assumptions were correct.“I, for one had no Idea. Thank you for clarifying. Now we know the that the Meseorah YO is referring to is ish m’pi ish m’pi Avi Weiss u’ bait dino.”
100%. I’m trying to avoid names, but Avi Weiss has a well-known side-kick (particularly in creating pasul gerim). He’s from that shul.
For someone to take the mesorah that doesn’t hold like Rashi for reshus harabim/eruvim, was historically more machmir with glatt, was historically more machmir with waiting between meat and dairy, doesn’t mix fish and dairy, says birkas kohanim daily, (the list goes on) and claim that it’s better because it’s “more meikel,” there’s a good chance they’ve been influenced by that Manhattan community (which, by the way, does none of these things to my knowledge). Baruch Hashem, it’s a limited trend, but I refer to it as “Neo-Sphardic,” because their relationship with minhag Sphard is like that of Neo-Chassidim with Chassidus: they take what’s fun and disregard the rest.
“As for talmidim who do not become poskim or dayanim, what would you rather have.”
I would rather have someone who doesn’t have to rely on his wife’s Beis Yaakov education for basic, every day halachos. Your presentation is a false dichotomy. The fact that you think bochrim either learn enough halachah to become a posek or don’t learn any exactly demonstrates the problem people have with the system.
I thought it was the standard minhag. Which groups don’t do it?
It is done at yeshivish weddings including my own.
“Perhaps those Manhattanites are finally trying to experience an authentic, natural Judaism as opposed to an artificially rigid and benighted one?”
Perhaps you know more about them than you let on?
The shul being discussed here, for those who don’t know, is an Open Orthodox/Conservadox shul that couches it’s kulos behind the Sphardi mesorah (a real disrespect to real Sphardim). If you want to see REAL cultural appropriation (not a phrase I like using) go there. They claim to be more authentically Sphardi than real Sphardim because they used historical research to reestablish the pre-expulsion mesora, which is obvious nonsense.
I’ve always followed the logic that the havara with fewer differentiations is likely less close to the original than those with more.
People who says teimani havara is the best and then Sphardi is second best are clearly not basing it in logic. Ashkenaz havara is closer to teimani than Sphardish is.
I personally am of the opinion that the Slabodka/American yeshiva derech doesn’t teach enough halachah and the bochrim end up knowing less than baalhabatim. The fact that the derech halimud was set up by gedolim does not mean everyone has to think it’s best. Pressberg had a different derech, the Sphardim have a different derech, etc. It might just be the most popular because it’s the easiest.
The OP is really upset that frum circles don’t accept him when he calls Sukkos the “Festival of Booths.” All these threads are just warming up to that.
I’m actually starting to suspect character trolling. No real human I’ve ever met is this bad at hiding his insecurity.
I’m certainly not encouraging people not to with the shema.
It’s worth mentioning, however, that people from NYC don’t seem to be able to pronounce the guttural sound involved in the sounds, “ing,” “ang,” and “ong.” If they tried out this chashash and ended up saying “shemon-guh yisroel…” they would probably be doing more harm than good.
” Just like a white person can point out negative things that white people do and that, say, Hispanic people, do well, Hu Hadin here as well.”
When they do it as methodically as you do, they get called self-loathers because that’s all they are. As I said earlier, your whole shtick is just the yiddishkeit version of self-loathing, white liberalism. You see Ashkenaz as the “default” and therefore anything else is “more cultured” and more interesting. Liberals do the same thing with western culture.
The act is not a chiddush either. There’s a whole big shul in Manhattan of Ashkenazim who pretend to be Sphardim and tout all the same nonsense. I think it’s a trend among the Dati Leumi also, but I wouldn’t really know.
Gaon:
I don’t think anybody denies that what you’re saying is true. Ideally, everyone would pronounce it correctly. The Mishnah Berurah does say in hilchos nasias kapayim that when a whole locality loses the ability the differentiate, they are still yotzei everything. He mentions that Russian Jews at his time did not differentiate between sin and shin.Now allow me to say something that will inevitably make a lot of posters here freak out: sometimes it’s better to be normal than to be right.
“It’s not a structured system similar to the goyim’ s degrees.”
Maybe not officially, but clearly we have pulpit Rabbis, poseks, dayans, Rosh Yeshivas, etc.
In Chareidi circles, rabbis will say “I can’t answer this question because I’m not a posek.” The MO world doesn’t really seem to have this concept.
I think some chassidim do pronounce the umlaut, but it’s not very far off from an ee sound. They probably just got merged at some point by most chassidim. Most people would hear it and still call it “Chasidishe havara” I would think.
Only with the name Yaakov. No idea why so many of us have that minhag.
“Then stop churning fallacies like “The ‘A’ community built up the ‘S’ community”.”
Who’s the one saying that other than you? We aren’t going around berating Sphardim for no reason. Case and point, this thread was supposed to be about Rav Shlomo Kanievsky. You’re the one who turned it into this, on account of your weird, questionably sane obsession with comparing Ashkenazim and Sphardim.
We have gone out and learned and been around the block enough to know that real frum Sphardim are normal people, not like you and “Rabbi” Mizrachi. Unfortunately, there are people on these forums who don’t necessarily live in areas where they will see this. You’re making Sphardim look like crazy people; what are you expecting to gain from it?
Unom:
I suspect you might be joking anyway, but the OP wasn’t talking about going to the gadol hador and being referred to a specialist. She was clearly talking about asking your LOR a shailah for which he is not qualified. That’s a very common occurrence depending on where one lives.“I have to somehow believe that when Satmar was created less than a century ago, they magically knew better than the Bet Yosef? Rambam?”
What exactly is the issue you see? Are you assuming they posken that everyone before Chassidus was over issurim, because, if so, you’re wrong. If you’re bothered by the fact that some people use sharper knives to be safe, then you really need to get a life.” And you expect me to rely on that mesora?”
Nobody is trying to convert you. We just want you to stop chiming in on random threads to comment about how Sphardim are superior and Ashkenazim are stupid. Frankly, I don’t see why you’re any better than someone like Rebbitzin Golden Pick. Your account does not seem to serve any purpose other than to potentially cause a chillul Sphard in the event that a passerby reads your posts and gets the impression that REAL Sphardim actually think like you, which they do not.From my experience, they escalate the shailah and ask the specialized Rabbi on your behalf rather than making you go to him.
The cost of Timothy?
Wow. For all of these “well documented” facts people are stating, there sure is a glaring lack of sources being cited here.
Who cares who had smarter balhabatim 1000 years ago?
The khazar theory is fake and made up by anti-Semites. Everyone should be proud of their mesorah. People who “wish they could switch to the other mesorah” are self-loathers and should not be taken seriously in any argument.
I don’t find the timestamps to be accurate. I wonder if there should be an official rule regarding accusations of chillul shabbos based on timestamps. This isn’t the first time this topic has come up in the CR.
“Sadly, many yidden are simply not willing to pay the cost of the top of the line ingredients and culinary”
I agree with DY. Baruch Hashem yidden don’t drive up the prices of our food like we do with our housing.
As for the OP, there are kosher places that try to be gourmet, especially in Manhattan and LA.
“OU, Rabbanut, Triangle K, and maybe other hechsherim that I missed being mentioned going around the CR block a few times are apparently the reference point in this statement.”
I can’t tell if you’re truly uneducated on the topic, or if you’re purposely stacking your argument in a dishonest way. As you can see here, the Rabbanut is not comparable to the other hechshers you mention. By putting it in the same breath as the OU, you either don’t know what you’re talking about, or you’re trying to create a straw man argument. This is not a thread about the OU’s standards; as I said before, they are not comparable.
Saying the Rabbanut hechsher (alone) is borderline treif is not a chiddush or extreme statement at all. That’s completely mainstream. It’s a hechsher only for “traditional” Israelis. Nobody here should be seriously considering it.
Yes, I meant chazaras hashatz. Sorry about that.
Well now that Yabia has taken it upon himself to peddle the same conspiracy theories as history’s greatest anti-Semitic monsters, I think we can wrap this discussion up.
Yabia:
Why did you ask what Yotzros were if you clearly knew the answer? Just so that you could critique whatever response you got?
I have never heard of Sphardim saying yotzros on shabbos arba parshios, or shalash regalim. I could be wrong. Apparently, you’re the expert.Laskern: the rule of thumb seems to be:
Call inserts into the birkas shema “piyutim”
Call inserts into krias hashatz on chagim “yotzros” (misnomer because the word comes from yotzer ohr)
Call inserts on Purim “krovetz.”I don’t think there’s any rationale to that pattern; it just seems to be the trend.
“Can someone explain what Maaravit And Yotzrot are?”
Piyuttim said in the birkas kiras shema and during the kiras hashatz. Sphardim don’t do it as they posken it’s a hefsek.
You’ll find them in most Ashkenazi Machzors even though ~100% of Ashkenaz-davening shuls/yeshivas in America have been mevatel the minhag on account of the Gra. Some do strictly on R”H and Yom Kippur, I believe.
I do not represent YCB, just people who like puns.
You do not represent sphardim, just people who like foaming at the mouth about non-existent arguments.
By the way, that wasn’t a put down, just a description. I’m not even sure Avi would be offended by it. He’s a proud Ashkenaz-basher. Did it hit close to home because you know it perfectly describes you, thus causing you to have the existential crisis that you are not unique but, in fact, a very predictable product of liberal, white-apologist culture that has been adapted into yiddishkeit?
“Neither YU, nor Sephardic!”
Ah, so you’re like Avi K, a self-loathing Dati Leumi Ashkenazi who goes around trying to convince other Ashkenazim of our inferiority?
I don’t know how to measure prominence either, but it’s definitely not just a count of how many books one wrote. The Maharsha is more widely learned than the Hida.
“When I want to know who is a Gadol I will consult with Joseph.”
And, who do you consult when you’re deciding which mesoras are OK to call meshugah? “Rabbi” Yoseph Mizrachi?
I’m not going to contend that Torah has been stronger in one mesora as Joseph is doing. But, as for this attack about using the CR forums: there’s only one person on these forums that goes around to random threads that have nothing to do with minhag and tries to turn them into some kind of immature race war, and that person is you. If you live in a glass house, don’t throw stones.
“The extra losses from shoplifting is much more than offset by the reduced labor costs.”
That’s a baseless claim. In ghetto areas where it’s a real concern, I’m not sure this would hold true. Each self checkout aisle frees them of having to compensate 1 cashier at minimum wage with no benefits. There wouldn’t have to be a lot of theft to offset this.
I don’t know why nobody is really addressing the OP’s question.
There are many halachos that apply only in eretz Yisroel. The Rabbanut and other sub-par hechsherim are very meikel on these and thus most of the frum velt does not hold of them. L’maaseh they ARE much more meikel than the OU, so I don’t know why you keep making that analogy. From my understanding, the Rabbanut and Beit Yosef hechsherim are worse than anything we have in the US, including triangle K. It’s not just people being crazy.
Having been around around the CR block a few times, I have a feeling this was not the answer the OP wanted. I could be wrong, but these threads usually end up being a thinly veiled argument that everyone should just be super meikel and eat borderline treif so that the poster will feel more comfortable with himself.
“Ashkenazim SHOULD be proud of their Mesora. But they should not be ignoramuses. And all Jews need to realize that Torah is Torah. you should learn from a Rav from Poland just as you should from one from Egypt. That is the enlightened way to approach Torah.”
That is not the approach you have taken on these forums ever, and don’t think anyone is going to believe you’ve suddenly turned over a new leaf just because you’ve been called out for what you are. You’re exploiting a social trend that mirrors modern liberalism and calling Ashkenazim “meshugas” because you you can and we can’t.
They couldn’t use them in an area with a shoplifting problem. It’s basically the honor system.
“was to figure out where this minhag came from. ”
No reason to construct theories; it’s an explicit maharil.