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Avi, we all say prayers for the land of Israel and the coming of Moshiach. That has nothing to do with the current, secular state. It’s not a political thing. One shouldn’t pray for an entity run by anti-Semitic Arabs and self-loathing, liberal, atheist Jews. You can say it’s saved many lives, but so has America. It’s a state that lets Arab extremism flourish and suppresses Jewish free speech. It detains Kahane’s children without reason, and let’s Holocaust denying Arabs roam free and even serve in the Knesset. Israel has become a slave to international opinion and political correctness so much so that it bares greater resemblance to an Islamic state at this point than a Jewish state. If it stopped committing these actions that I consider anti-Jewish, would my opinion change? Absolutely. That’s where I do differ from the hardliner anti-Zionists here. I will be totally willing to change when Israel changes.
As for the borderline worship, I think you know what I mean. I’m not making a blanket accusation against all Zionists, but surely you’ve noticed the people who attach religious significance to people like Herzl, Ben Gurion, and Ben Yehudah who hated Judaism. I heard a tour guide in Israel refer to Herzl as “moshiach” one time. Herzl supported legally banning circumcision. We know these people exist. I’m not saying they represent mainstream religious Zionism, but they exist.
As for the second part of the question, I assume you meant to say “what about?” And yes, in that case it really depends on how far the “borderline worship” goes. Obviously there are con-artists in any religion. Nevertheless, I can better empathize with those who are drawn in to a religious figure rather than those who are religiously drawn to atheists like Herzl.
” what “bias” would make someone call it the other way, to make kissing a murderer (done to hopefully save Jewish lives) to be far worse than idolatry and heresy?”
The kind of bias that doesn’t equate Zionism to full blown idolatry in the literal sense. I.e. the opinion of seemingly every poster in the Coffee Room other than you. It’s just a halachic difference, I don’t mean any disrespect. If someone held me at gun point and asked me to bow down to an idol, I would take a bullet as the halachah requires. If someone held me at gun point and asked me to say the prayer for the state of Israel, I would reluctantly do so against my will. I assume you would take the bullet in both situations since you consider Zionism to be idolatry?
I have to ask, just out of curiosity, do you consider the extreme dati leumim who borderline worship Ben Gurion and company to be worse or the same as the secular Zionists who attach no religious significance to their beliefs?
“THE ASHKENAZIM HAVFE TO BE ASHAMED OF ONE BIG THING, WITH MANY DIFFERENT WORDS – ASSIMILATION, EMANCIPATION, LIBERALISM, ZIONISM”
The Ashkenazim only have to be ashamed of one thing: we have self-loathers in our midst saying things like this. We should be ashamed to be born Ashkenaz? You sound just like the American left who says all whites should be ashamed just by virtue of being born. The biases in our community perfectly mirror those of the mainstream world. How well would Crawley’s hateful comment have gone over had it been made against Sphardim instead of Ashkenazim? It’s open season on all Western customs in our liberal society. When an Ashkenazi takes on Sphardi customs against those of his fathers, it’s viewed as a beautiful intermixing of cultures by the religious left. When a Sphard does so, it’s all oy chaval, what a shame, how dare he wear that hat.
Sam: Um what? I assume you’re talking about wearing a second hat, and not suggesting that Sphardim should go totally bare-headed on Shabbos. Even so, what’s the issue? Carrying?
HaKatan: Of course I would consider the NK member who is otherwise observant in all areas of halachah to be more frum than your MO example.
Don’t paint me out to be a left-leaning MO type just because I harshly criticized the NK. The analogy I was making is more specifically this:
There are a lot of Dati Leumim who habitually ignore the Rabbonim when it comes to Zionism, but they are otherwise fully observant. Then there’s the Neturei Karta who habitually ignore the Rabbonim when their actions are condemned, but, again, they are otherwise fully observant. I think to weigh in on which one of these too groups would be more frum just comes down to our own biases. I just can’t bring myself to call someone a Torah Jew who shakes hands with the Ayatollah at a Holocaust denial conference.
This is really somewhat of a repeat thread, and it’s as ridiculous now as it was then. Sphardim will wear whatever Sphardim want to wear! I find it absurd that to come across as culturally sensitive posters feel the need to say certain people SHOULDN’T be able to dress as they please.
Sphardim should wear turbans and robes? Should African Americans wear tribal garb? Should Native Americans wear loin cloths? Please, be reasonable. They have every bit as much right to keep up with the normal fashion as anybody else. And if an Ashkenazi wanted to wear a turban for his second head covering during davening then he could go right ahead. Something tells me it wouldn’t catch on.
Scarred driver: It’s not really comparable. The Kitzur is much more available and understandable for beginners. As for its differences with the normative halacha, yes they exist, but I think any addition will have footnotes where this occurs to let you know. Also, I think the occurrence is more rare that you think. It’s not like the author differs from the norm on every other halacha. Yes, one can’t really use the Kitzur for any kind of authoritative argument, but that’s not what the OP is looking for.
What people are saying about where people fall on European standards is true. I would suggest that, while we might be outnumbered, the US standards are better. Dismissing all real conservatives as far right and letting anything go on the left side is not a positive. It wouldn’t be positive if it were the other way around either! Moving exclusively in one direction is a very bad thing.
On the topic of what Charlie and I were talking about earlier: Fox just announced that Pataki and Graham won’t even be allowed into the small debate (effectively kicking them out of the race), and that Huckabee and Christie will be bumped down. I guess the probability of Charlie Hall voting Republican in the general just went from .01% to 0%.
“Not based on his record as Governor of Ohio.”
I admit I know nothing about that record other than what’s been brought up in debates regarding his liberal stances on medicare and the Affordable Care Act, and the fact that he’s the most accepting of the Iran deal of possible any other candidate (I hope you and I can agree that that’s a bad thing).
“Pataki is even better.”
Interesting. I won’t pretend to know anything about Pataki; I don’t have time to keep up with the kiddy pool debates. My point was that the best candidate on environmental record is a Republican, which I think is good. Those of us who care about the environment shouldn’t be constrained to one party.
“Not sure what makes Bernie a Socialist.”
Ask him. I’m not making an accusation. He himself identifies as a Socialist, a “Democratic Socialist” as he likes to say. You have to admit, a candidate as far left as Bernie seldom does this well in an election. It speaks either for the current state of the party, or for Hillary’s likability problem.
The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch is what I consider to be the fastest way to learn halachah at any level. There are several translations. Unfortunately for your case, the Kitzur is written by a Hungarian and the footnotes largely cite the Mishna Berura. I’m not sure a comparable book exists that would give you exclusively Sphardi opinions.
147, I’m really curious as to why you say that. Why does this group of Artscroll-haters exist in the world? Why do you think they “dictate the nusach hatefilla” any more than any other siddur? Just because they’re popular?
Popa, I think you’re on to a new homemade YCT tshuvah that uses this statement as backing.
Old Man: you mean they’re universally said in Israel by all following minhag haGra? Or by roughly all Ashkenazim?
Avi: Hallel in shul seems to be one of the most widely observed of the minhagim mentioned here so far. I know us Yekkes don’t do it because it goes against the Rema, but is the Gra really the main Ashkenazi proponent of it? I thought it was much more mainstream than minhag haGra.
“Proof that the Republicans who whined about Obama’s lack of experience didn’t really believe what they were saying.” I’ll give it to you; you have a decent point there, Charlie.
You forgot to put John Kasich on your list of RINO’s that you would actually consider on the Republican side. He’s quite possibly more liberal than Hillary.
About 50% of the poll support on the right this season has been going to various establishment politicians who have supported amnesty or otherwise wavered from conservative ideals. The front runner (Carson, as I write this) has several times mentioned decreasing our oil dependency. And, the candidate with arguably the best record for the environment on EITHER side is Chris Christie (and no, dodging questions about national security at the Democratic debate by throwing in the phrase climate change does not make you have a good record). So, I respectfully disagree with your notion that the GOP is getting more extreme this year.
With 35% of Democrat support going to a Socialist and the other 65 going to Hillary who is having to try to match Bernie’s Socialism in to some degree in the debates, it is indisputable that the Democratic party is going much farther left this year. Whether or not that’s a good thing is not for me to say.
Let’s all just stop arguing and start entertaining ourselves and having a good laugh with this:
After all, that’s what the Coffee Room is really about. Having a good old time. That and having frivolous arguments about Zionism.
I don’t understand the people on the defensive here. Do you think we should have to accept the Conservative and Reform movements as Torah Judaism so as to promote achdus?
Do you think that if a movement includes the word “Orthodox” in its title that it’s allowed to do whatever it wants without condemnation? This is a circus. There’s a possible threat that this movement masquerading as Orthodox might actually trick people. Isn’t that worthy of condemnation?
Thanks for the correction, Avi. I’m sorry for posting incorrect information here. This isn’t a subject I know too much about so I hope this thread stays alive; it’s very interesting.
I think Joseph is starting to get at the answer to this with his last one-line comment. From what I’ve learned–correct me if I’m wrong–the Gra ruled on when Ashkenazim should defer to minhag hamakom in eretz Yisroel. For example, (again, correct me if I’m wrong) he held that Ashkenazim should not wrap tefillin on chol hamoed in eretz Yisroel as the prevailing minhag hamakom was not to (on account of the Sephardim). In short, I think those following minhag haGra in Israel would have different practices than those following it in the diaspora (can anyone confirm this?).
For the original poster: What specifically were you talking about when you thought of this question? In what cases do you find that Minhag haGra is followed by Ashkenazim in Israel (more so than it would be b’hutz).
I like them when they add up perfectly and we don’t have to make up an excuse for the excess (like when “Torah” adds up to 611 and we have to explain why it’s just so darn close to 613, but not quite).
One of my favorites: Eim (mother) = 41. Av (father) = 3. Thus, eim plus av is 44, which is exactly the numerical value of yeled (child). 44 Is also the number of autosomes (non-gender chromosomes) in the human body. Imma and abba (with their irregular spelling) would add up to 46: the total number of chromosomes in humans.
The real question is, what do “Chofetz Chaim girls” like?
That wasn’t Mrs. D’s point. The point was that, regardless of what you want to say about these controversial sects, they do probably help bring people back to yiddishkeit.
However non-mainstream the views of these groups may be, I don’t see how people consider it permissible to trash talk them. I’m surprised this thread was allowed through given the predictable direction in which it was headed.
Wut do Chabadniks and mondern ortodox have in common?
Ansur: tey both eat gefilte fish. cept for the MO. they don’t eat gefilte fish.
When it was mentioned that pre-marriage yekkes don’t wear tallisim over their heads on this thread, it was referring to throughout the davening. Of course it’s still the custom to wrap it around the head right after the brachah is said, so there is no problem with the Arizal quote that HaLeivi mentioned.
Also, from my experience, in Sephardi communities AND in minhag Ashkenaz the minhag is to wear a tallis gadol well before bar mitzvah. Is there anyone outside of the hederodoxy and Modern Orthodoxy that start exactly at bar mitzvah age? I see that a lot of people on this thread can argue the logic of starting at that point, but that’s not how minhagim are decided. The custom to wear it from age ~3 clearly goes way back, as does the custom to wait until marriage. What’s the basis to start at the bar mitzvah?
Well here I am taking the bait and bumping this thread with full knowledge that this thread will probably head in a direction that will cause it to be closed.
So, what ever do you mean, One Liner?
Also, Mods, I motion to change the title of this thread to “Gefilte fish and gefilte fish.” That way nobody gets offended. All in favor say oy!
“If you believed that people such as Herzl, Ben Gurion, Sharon, Netanyahu, etc., were the modern equivalents of Shabatai Zvi or Yaakov Frank, what would you do?”
Well I certainly wouldn’t march along side Islamists and proud anti-Semites, that’s for sure. None of the mainstream anti-Zionist religious camp condones what they’re doing. When none of the gadolim would sanction shaking hands with those who have the same views as Hitler, yet they do so anyway, I think we can say they aren’t frum (at least to the same degree that we can call a far-left MO who ignores all of the major Rabbis “not frum”). Condemning the secular, Zionist state does not automatically equate to venerating Iran and Hezbollah. This thread isn’t about Zionism, it’s about the N”K’s extreme methods.
Nisht: That’s a good point. To the rest of the world, people take the opinions of organizations like JStreet more seriously, so they’re the ones we should really be talking about. The Nuturei Karta is a hot topic here because they claim to be representing religious Judaism which bothers a lot of the frum world who don’t agree.
You googled Joseph and he came up? That IS flattering.
I vote Abba bar Aristotle.
We need to decide whether the MO is wrong because the ideology was wrong from the beginning and the followers are innocently being taken in, or if it’s wrong because its followers have deviated from its original purpose and used it as a means of violating halachah. There’s kind of a lack of consistency.
Now to indulge the current conversation a little: I don’t think pleading ignorance gets a person off the hook for dealing with A”Z. If a Jew converted to Buddhism, C”S, because he thought it was fine, you still couldn’t give him money that he might use to buy idols (e.g. trading with him before a Buddhist holiday, if there is such a thing). So even in HaKatan’s model in which the Zionists are unwittingly guilty of A”Z, the question of how to do dealings with them still stands. If someone was unwittingly breaking Shabbos, even if he isn’t quite as culpable because of his lack of knowledge, it’s not like you can benefit from it.
P.S. Thanks, Comlink, I’m glad you like it.
So what started out as a decently legitimate debate on YWN has descended into a fight over Zionism. Who saw that coming? Totally caught me off guard…
The Rabbonim have been claiming things were analogous to A”Z forever. Doesn’t the Gemarra say excessive pride is comparable to it? Doesn’t mean the actual laws of avoidah zarah apply. I think it’s a bit of a straw man argument to attack him on the basis that he doesn’t treat Zionists as literal idolaters.