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Sam: Washing before Kiddush does have a source, the Rema. I would like to believe he understood the Gemarra pretty well. I’m not sure why the Eastern Ashkenazi poskim started going against the Rema here.
Joseph: I imagine the 3 hour custom exists independently of that typo. One theory is that 3 hours is a chumrah(!) on the previous 1 hour German custom.
I’m curious as to the actual demographics of people waiting 3 hours. From being around the block, it seems like the people who are just doing it out of minhag lazy far outnumber the people doing it because of an established yekkish tradition.
“Neville, why do you only mention them. What about Rav Reines and Rav Kook? “
Because my point was in regards to you accusing people of libel for calling Zionism historically secular. I don’t think Herzl would have been too offended by people calling it secular. I’ll let you keep arguing that the state has become more religious or whatever, but don’t say Zionism is historically religious. Statements like that are the reason people are weary of sending their kids to state-funded schools. Let’s be honest, there were a lot more Herzls in the early Zionist movement than there were Rav Kooks…
I thought it was a typo in a kitzur version of Rabbeinu Yerucham that disagrees with the main text; otherwise, how would we know that it’s a typo? I could be wrong, however.
Anyway, what does this have to do with the Yerushalmi? I thought the only time when the gemarra spoke of waiting after meat, it mentioned waiting a full day, and clearly nobody holds that way. Any minhag in this department could be said to be different than the gemarra.
What about washing before kiddush? I was told that this is how beis Shammai held. If that’s true, then it’s kind of weird we (some of us) hold that way. Can anyone confirm or deny that?
DY: As mentioned earlier, the Rema said that the German custom was to wait 1 hour, but he recommended doing 6 (I think the 1 hour might also be mentioned by the maharil, but I don’t actually know). The 3 hour custom really came out of nowhere.
Everyone agrees that if one is in the habit of waiting 6, he cannot switch to 3 even if it’s more in line with the customs of his ancestors, probably because the 3 hour has no source. I follow western Ashkenaz minhag, so I am, by no means, ‘out to get it’ or anything.
I’m not taking sides with either camp right now, but I want to clear something up…
When the Zionist posters say that the state has “historically” been religious, are you arguing that the early Zionists like Herzl (who supported banning circumcision) and Ben Yehudah were pro-religion?
If not, then can you really accuse the other side of “libel?”
Anti-Zionist posters: If the state had never happened, it would probably be a Muslim state. The British likely would have given up control either way. Seeing what happens when Muslim populations overthrow their kings and establish Islamic states, do you really think the Jews in the land of Israel would be better off with that?
If not, then can you really call it the yetzer harah?
Everyone: Do you actually think your posts will change anyone’s minds?
If not, then why are we here? Why am I posting this at midnight on a Monday?
“And everyone knows that is is disengenuous to compare books written for a kosher market to secular fiction.”
It’s not unfair to hold everything, at least roughly, to the same literary standard. If there’s a trend of bad writing in this genre of books, like ZD implied, then it looks bad. I have no idea if ZD is right or not in this specific case because I don’t believe I’ve read any of the books in question, so I don’t really want to argue it any further.
Nisht: ZD clarified that he was not referring to translations. He’s talking about books written by frum yidden in English about Jewish topics (biographies of Rebbes, etc.). He also isn’t saying that they’re illegible because of bad spelling or grammar, he is saying that they are written with very clear, remedial literary skill.
And don’t just say “as long as everything is spelled right, what difference does it make?” I think, if ZD is right, it’s worth being upset about because it makes people think frum Jews don’t get anything beyond a sixth grade education in English.
“Worst of all is the one who graduated college with a BA with a bad gpa.”
Just leave it off the resume. I heard from one person who partook in the hiring process that employers don’t care to see it on the resume even if it’s good because it makes you look too “fresh out of college.”
Seems like everyone here agrees that one should only major in something of specific use if they go to college so I’m not really sure what argument is left.
You guys don’t seriously think Dennis Prager has ever checked the YWN CR, right? Lol, that was probably one of Joseph’s accounts.
The reason I asked about Shabbos was because I had noticed that people seem to be more OK with breaking shomer nagia for medical reasons than they are about breaking Shabbos. You cleared that up. I didn’t realize there was a legitimate halachic reason for that trend.
Still begs the question of why it doesn’t apply in other situations where the mental involvement in the job would [theoretically] prevent those thoughts. Eg. barbers, shaking hands at interviews, etc.
Could you explain that a little more, DY?
Would that suggest that a dentist could come in on Shabbos just to give a teeth cleaning?
I think RebYidd is kidding, but I have wondered how a person could be a frum dentist. I don’t think you would make it far refusing to see patients of the opposite gender, and I don’t think anyone is claiming that routine teeth cleanings are a matter of pikuach nefesh.
What are some careers that a frum person legitimately couldn’t do? I think it’s actually an interesting topic.
Don’t really understand the question. I think being a frum doctor would arguably be very challenging. I’m sure many of us have met someone who went off the derech and it started out as just being pikuach nefesh. It would also seem hard to be a frum lawyer.
“I will trump over all those who even try to
help me cruz to victory.”
I see what you did there 😉
The OU web site says that the dairy in the English Muffins is less than 1/60th and that’s what they rely upon. I don’t really see how it applies here, but they certainly know better than I, so I do eat OUD English Muffins.
“I think whether or not the OU should use DE, and the reasons for each position, is not where this thread was.”
You mean to say a Coffee Room thread went off topic? No. Way. …May I ask about your positions on Zionism?
“You can’t anticipate and prevent every possible mishap, but I guess that within reason, they try to do what they can.”
Exactly. The OU thinks their technique prevents more mistakes, the CRC thinks a dairy equipment hechsher does. Popa and I seem to side with the CRC, you seem to side with the OU on this. I believe that eventually the OU will be forced to bring back the DE in order to keep up with competition.
Ahh I see. They could chose a different hechsher. Sorry, I misunderstood the first time.
I’m not including mixing meat with dairy equipment as an “accidental transgression.” I believe that when the OU talks about the risk of people doing that, they are speaking of people who willingly make the choice. Only using OUD could cause accidental transgression for the reasons mentioned now by several of us on this thread. I don’t really feel like repeating.
“Then people will eat it with fleishig”
That is the OU’s official reason for not having the DE hechsher. Some of us disagree with the argument, some Kashrus agencies decide differently.
I don’t personally see the kind of person who would willingly mix DE food and fleishig as being the type to post an “OU isn’t trustworthy thread” on the YWN forums. There’s a difference between the kind of person who might miss an OU alert here and there (ie. all of us) and the kind of person who would purposely eat DE with meat. Yes, it’s kind of a lose lose, but we all have the sides we’ve picked. The choice is between preventing willful transgression while risking accidental (OUD only) or risking willful transgression while preventing accidental (The case for DE).
Why would Nabisco want an OUD over a DE? Do they have any say?
How many times do I need to say I’m not blaming the OU? This is the last time. It’s not my fault you all can’t get over yourselves.
DY: Yes, they should have a dairy equipment hechsher like the CRC does and like any common sense organization would do. It’s a different halachic status than full blown dairy.
Apush: Not everyone would necessarily realize that. Some people are new to keeping kosher. Not everyone is as brilliant and wonderful and perfect as you… Now, would you like to repeat your argument so that I can repeat mine yet again? Would that help?
Copy Machine: You’re exactly right. You summed up, very well, the clear divide among posters on this thread. Some of us, myself included, could not possibly stop relying upon the OU. The only non-OU hechshers around me are LESS reliable than the OU. It requires great lengths just to avoid tablet K.
Somehow I seem to have be thrown on the anti-OU side of this discussion. That is absolutely not accurate, and I would like to clear my name. I said that those complaining about the non-dairy creamers have a legitimate complaint. I never said that the conclusion should be to reject the OU or even to reject those items. I just think that other posters were being a bit too dismissive. The halachah has always considered the uninformed masses. When it was decided that dairy bread is not kosher, it wasn’t being assumed that 100% of the Jewish population was the type of people who would do their research before every purchase and every meal, and sign up for any and all kashrus alerts. We have a lot of very stringent and well-informed people on these forums. Nobody here would make the mistake of using non-dairy (but actually dairy) creamer with meat. These arguments are centered around a different side of the community.
And on a side note, I PROMISE that not everyone eating oreos is checking the OU site for alerts every time they go to put one in their mouth, not even on the stricter side! If they switched to real dairy, the change would go undetected by thousands.
Who said anything about blaming the OU? The Taz and Magein Avraham hold that it applies to more than just bread. You’re correct that we don’t pasken like that, but don’t accuse me of “making it up.”
I’m not claiming the OU should stop hechshering in these situations. I think you understood my point, but, naturally, you chose to be rude instead.
“It’s always the consumer’s fault” is not a legitimate rebuttal. If Oreos went from dairy equipment to dairy, and thousands of people erred because NOTHING changed about the hechsher, would that still be their fault?
From what I know, many of the products that scream “non-dairy,” while being OU-D are actually dairy equipment. As of now, the OU doesn’t have a dairy equipment hechsher. The main buyers of non-dairy creamers (vegans, people with allergies, etc) couldn’t care less if the equipment were considered dairy by halachic standard. The OU does not specify when things are dairy equipment because they think it would cause people to be lax and eat it with meat. Unfortunately it causes a whole different problem of people assuming things are only dairy equipment when they’re full-blown milcheg (eg. plain Oreos are only dairy equipment, but certain flavors are milcheg; the hechsher provides NO way of differentiating).
All that said, I think the grievance brought up here about products advertised as non-dairy is totally legitimate. Hechshers aren’t provided for non-pareve sandwich bread lest it be eaten with meat. If there’s a concern that people will assume bread to be pareve without regard for the hechsher, how much more so for products that explicitly claim to be non-dairy?
Because they will only support someone who turns the blind eye to the fact that Planned Parenthood does things other than abortions, turns the blind eye to the fact that the Iraq war destabilized the middle east, and turns the blind eye to the fact that George W. was a terrible president who lied about Iraq having WMD’s.
In short, some people would rather just blindly follow the GOP establishment. Some people are liberals and therefore Trump lost them at “I’m running as a Republican.”
I’m not going to bother addressing the absurd conspiracy theories that Trump is a secret liberal running as a Republican. If you buy into it, put on your tin-foil hats and go back to your bunker.
As for the OP, you can’t possibly expect YWN to write at the end of every article “Let’s remember, they’re doing this because it says … in the Quran.” That’s just silly.
Yes, people sit on the sidelines. There have been millions of Americans who supported war in Iraq, but didn’t personally serve in the military. In Islamic countries, there are millions who support the terrorists, but aren’t personally terrorists (people the liberals like to call “innocent”). If you compare the percentage of Germans who supported Hitler, Japanese who supported the emperor, and Muslims who support terrorism, you will see that we have a very very big problem.
I think “that’s what he tells you” is a pretty apt response (assuming that was to Sam). There are probably reasons other than just the gebrochts. It could be that gebrochts is just one way of measuring whether or not people have the same kashrus standards, a “litmus test” so to speak.
Kol hakavod, theprof1. May I ask what Chasidish sefer?
I personally put emphasis on practical halachah and Gemorra. The effort I put into studying parsha could certainly use some work. I also learn a very small amount (~1 or 2 minutes) of Chasidus before bed.
Did I miss something? Why did ubiquitin just start rudely freaking out at Joseph with no provocation?
Hashemisreading: I 90% agree with you. The analogies between materialism and avodah zara and really annoying, and are probably one of the catalysts for this thread.
However, it’s not correct to say there is no avodah zara today. There are sects of far Eastern religions that absolutely bow down to idols. I know a Tibetan Buddhist (wasn’t always Buddhist since I’ve known her), and they put food in front of idols. I also met a Neopagan who poured libation wine to his false gods. Indisputable avodah zara.
I never said my opinion is the “most valid” one. I just said it’s the most mainstream. I stand by that.
I’ve never heard of anyone thinking refraining from gebrochts is halachah.
DY: It’s assur for the reasons already mentioned. I assume it’s most mainstream because it seems to be how most people hold (just look at this very thread). I apologize for questioning whether or not you had already questioned a Rav.
Let’s not equate talking during davening with using the internet. Refraining from using the internet altogether is not halachah. If anyone disagrees, then I guess they won’t be arguing against me here.
Talking during davening, on the other hand, has no excuse. Embarrassingly, the non-Orthodox movements are actually better about this on average.
Washing tomeetoes through the plastic on Shabbos seems to be assur by the mainstream opinion; I was talking to someone who actually asked our Rabbi about this. Sorry, DaasYochid, I really like you and most of your posts, but are you sure this particular argument is halachicly correct?
Newbee: I’ve been helping the other thread mostly, up until now. Now I guess I’m spreading the wealth.
Mik: That’s a good point about tefillin. For some reason, I was only thinking of tefillin shel yad. You’re correct. People probably do wear the shel rosh too low a lot.
The Chabad hand washing is not the same as the Sephardi. Chabad does 3 on the dominant hand then 3 on the other, just like how standard Ashkenazim do with 2. Sephardim alternate from hand to hand like we do in the morning.
Technically without the presence of water you can wash your hands with dirt, so I think it would be pretty difficult to find a way that isn’t acceptable in the minimal halachah.
Also, with tefillin, as long as people aren’t putting them on their legs or something, they’re probably still fulfilling the mitzvah.
ROB: You are right. The Trump win polls went back further than I thought. Nevertheless, the fact that Cruz won should not be that big of a surprise. Rubio did indeed outperform his numbers, but not his place. 0 chance of Rubio winning New Hampshire. I’m not saying he can’t get the nomination, but Kasich and Christie will be taking a lot of the establishment vote in New Hampshire. After Kasich and Christie lose New Hampshire, and probably under-perform, I suspect they’ll drop out. Things might really change after New Hampshire. I’m still betting Trump is the nominee, but that prediction could change.
The media and Rubio himself are certainly painting Rubio as having won by coming in third. The theory is that if all the other RINOs drop out, then their votes will all have to go to Rubio by default and he’ll win. For a long time now, a portion of this election has been a competition for last RINO standing.
As for the apparent surprise from the results: the order is just about exactly as it was supposed to be. There was one (clearly faulty) last minute poll that showed Trump as winning Iowa. All other Iowa polls for the past couple have weeks have shown the order exactly as it happened. The real surprise last night was Bernie Sanders. I never thought he would do as well as the polls suggested. He ended up outperforming his poll numbers!
Also, mazel tov, Joseph, on the victory of your favored candidate last night.
Mod 42- That’s true what you said about not repeating words. I’ve been to a community in which they do so, and I just avoided it (not that I knew any of their tunes anyway).
Anyone know how the Chofetz Chaim holds when it comes to eating fruit during a bread meal? I recently read in the kitzur shulchan aruch that one should make a before bracha on it since it’s not part of the meal.
bentzion: You asked who we thought would be best for the country. That question, in no way, asks who we think has the best chance of winning. This is a dilemma that Trump, Cruz, and Bernie Sanders fans share alike.
1)R- Trump. D – Clinton (was Webb before he dropped out).
2)R- Trump. D- Do I even need to say?
3)No
4) (No comment on 1,2. Already happened). iii) No indictment. iv)huh? v)Not directly. vi)He won’t join, but Jim Webb might.
I would like to add a question: Is the candidate you think is best for the country the one you will be voting for in the primary? Or, will your vote be (at least partially) based off of who can beat the other side?
My answer is undecided.
Seems like a lot of the things on the list are not definitive mistakes. Making a separate bracha on a dessert is certainly not universal if I’m understanding you correctly. The custom to have dessert after bentchen in order to get in another blessing is considered an extraneous bracha by some opinion.
“Not washing for bread the right way.” This is an interesting one. There seems to be a large portion of the uninformed masses who have adopted (probably unknowingly) the Chabad custom to wash 3 times on each hand before bread. I still wouldn’t call this “not the right way,” but there are a lot of people unknowingly following a minhag that isn’t really their own. But, that’s a topic for a different thread.
For an addition to the list: People waiting after eating something pareve because it was prepared on meat equipment. Also, people refraining from eating pareve foods which were prepared on dairy equipment when they’re fleishig.
Correction: David would still be pronounced David. I was tired when I wrote that.
Will that correction be let through?
knacker: “ask anybody, are they gonna be wearing fracks with hamburgs or shtreimelach?? of course they’re gonna have the real old ‘sefardi’ garb. And what are they going to be called?? If you say Moishe or Avrohom.. lets be real – they wont even turn around”
Being proud of Sphardi minhag does not entail bashing on everything Ashkenaz. Do you think King David will respond to Dabid, as would be the actual Sphardi pronunciation? Who knows and who cares what pronunciation and clothing they wore? “Old” Sphardim dressed like Arabs, Ashkenazim dress like Europeans. I doubt anybody today dresses like Moishe Rabeinu… Who cares?
Threads about Sphardim becoming too Ashkenaz happen a lot in the CR. I personally believe that this narrative about Sphardim being ashamed and wishing they were Ashkenazi is completely made up. From what I’ve seen, it’s common for Ashkenazim to go to Sphardi communities because they think it’s cool and different (you can see evidence of that occurrence in this very thread). The problem is that that can wear down the Sphardi integrity of the shul. For example, the oldest community in America is a Spanish shul on the upper west side. They still follow Spanish/Portuguese custom to the letter when in shul. However, of the hundreds of congregants they have, you can count the actual Sephardim on one hand, of the three Rabbis, only one is Sephardi.
I’ve heard this isn’t uncommon. It’s not that the Sphardim are leaving their communities, it’s that the Ashkenazim are flooding them.
I have no idea about what it’s like in Israel. I was told there are more religious Sphardim over there than there are religious Ashkenazim. Is that true?
“As should his blaming George W. Bush for the 9/11 attacks.”
Charlie please don’t go down that road. You can hate all of Trump’s policies, but if you think you have a good enough case against him, why do you need to twist what he said? He was refuting Jeb’s claim that we were safer under George Bush. If 9/11 is what happens under a president that “keeps us safe” then I’d hate to see what happens under one who doesn’t. Funny that you leftists were all over criticizing Bush for things like taking out Hussein and destabilizing the Middle East until Trump started agreeing with you.
RebYidd: What you’re saying is just completely false. Hemp fabric is totally legal; I think I own some. We’re only talking about the drug here, don’t straw man it.
Oyyoy: Your use the word “cmon” so many times makes your argument ever so hard to refute, but I’ll try my best. “who cares if there are other kinda okay times to drink if it is a dangerous substance?” Did you not read the part of the thread to which that was a response? Electricity can be dangerous, I think we all “care” that there are other “kinda ok” uses for it. Pot has only one use, getting high. And if somebody tries to derail this one more time by listing other uses of the plant from which pot, the drug, is derived I will reach through the CR and punch him or her.
There’s a very popular ideology in the non-orthodox world that you’re a better Jew if you vote for the people who will take more money away from working people and give it away because it counts as “tzedakah” or “tikkun olam.” Yes, it’s very annoying. I think this is what Avram is talking about.
MsPrincess: Before you conclude that there are no signs on intelligent life in the CR, I will assure you that I got your point. The counterargument against the “alcohol and tobacco are legal” argument is that pot has only one use. You can have a glass of wine with dinner, in fact, my doctor recommends it. You can smoke a cigar when you have a baby. You don’t smoke a casual joint with dinner. You smoke it for one reason, to get high. To those using the alcohol and tobacco argument, may I ask, to what end will you take that? Once pot is legal will you say now we might as well legalize cocaine? Then opium? Heroin? That’s what happened in Holland.
MsPrincess, my suggestion to you is to stop trying. People in the CR don’t change their minds, ESPECIALLY not the liberals. The pro pot crowd is made up of unrepentant druggies and people who have never known someone who suffered from the drug and thus are completely clueless.
MsPrincess: Yes, it’s normal to be uninterested in arguments between people who have no idea what they’re talking about, who will pay no heed to you when you do know what you’re talking about.
Point is, the OU either hechshered something that’s against federal law and provides no benefit, or they hechshered something that needs no hechsher just to make a statement or make some money. The argument quickly and predictably turned into a marijuana argument. As for the initial post, has anyone denied that this was a bit low for the OU to do?
Moi Aussie, the only one confusing marijuana with medical cannabis here is you. The OU gave a hechsher to recreational marijuana, not cannabis oil to be used in pharmaceuticals; let’s stay on topic. Putting the word “medical” in front of something doesn’t magically make it any different. Nobody has responded to the point I made earlier (because they can’t): why should every other drug have to wait in line with the FDA while pot can just bypass it? Try lobbying your state to legalize other substances that the FDA doesn’t approve of, see how that goes for you.
There’s always reasonable faults. If someone berates you for not wearing a hat, berate him for wearing a hat. That’s how it works here in the CR.
I follow a drug company that is testing a drug which definitely benefits muscular dystrophy victims; it’s currently going through the FDA approval process. If a state were to decide to bypass the FDA and start letting the company sell the drug, the federal government would crack down on it so fast it would make your head spin. Yet, with a primitive narcotic drug that doesn’t actually help anyone, they turn the blind eye. The federal bias is definitely in FAVOR of pot.
If anyone saw certain areas of California about 5 years back (eg. Santa Monica), there was a booming business of doctors who only existed to prescribe medical marijuana. It seems to have since been shut down for a large part. Point is, the OU is totally out of bounds to say it’s a mitzvah if your doctor says it will help. There are all kinds of doctors out there. I don’t know if Popa was kidding, but I truly think this bodes poorly for OU. However, let’s be honest, the OU is our own little “too big to fail” entity for American Orthodox Jews.