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Don’t bother getting worked up. There’s no point in entertaining the opinions of a guy who thinks the hats worn by all gadolim are ohel/beged-isha, but does not think umbrellas are ohel contrary to the opinion of just about everyone (even probably Avi Weiss).
Bicycles did not exist at the time of the Shulchan Aruch. If people are really using the argument “the S”A didn’t know about it yet, so it must be mutar” then the proper thread is this one:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lets-make-yct-teshuvas-by-popa
Joseph: Elevators have motion sensors so that the doors will no close of people. It would be against civil law to have an escalator that is prone to crushing people. There are doors that re-open when they hit someone, perhaps all Shabbos elevators have these. Normal ones would not, so I don’t see how some people hold that it’s muttar to use a regular elevator when a goy presses the buttons.
DY: I did not know that about the programming of Shabbos elevators. I guess they must go slightly slower when they have weight in them if they don’t use more energy. Still, that makes me question even more how people are okay with the goy-button-pressing. I agree with the train analogy. I was never disagreeing with you about escalators being assur, I was more arguing that we should be questioning elevators more; sometimes my analogies end up coming across reversed.
I heard the Chabad Rebbe wore 4 (not at the same time; Lubavitcher tefillin are huge). The same-timers are the types that would wear tiny tefillin.
If you build a tent it’s boneh, unambiguously one of the 39. I don’t see why umbrellas are in question. They’re either assur because they’re comparable to ohel, or because so many people hold they’re comparable to ohel that you assur them for another reason like “zilzul shabbos” even though you don’t think they’re ohel.
Bikes are assur. I don’t fully understand why, but I agree with DY that a “no” is a more appropriate answer than “ask your LOR.”
If we had the technology to transport additional weight at no additional energy cost, the world would be very different. Elevators HAVE to use more energy when there are 400 lbs of people in them. The fact that Shabbos elevators are not assur must imply that those poskim were OK with that extra energy usage for whatever reason. I’ve never understood how walking through the motion sensor on the door is mutar on those. If they disengaged it, it would mean the elevator door could potentially crush someone to death on a Shabbos elevator, so I refuse to believe it’s inactive on Shabbos.
DY: Do any of your sources say that Shabbos elevators are mutar, but escalators are not? I’m curious, because it does seem like escalators would be less problematic.
Avi, I think the RCA and Agudas get along a little better than the Gra and early Chasidim. It’s not really opposition like that.
For years, just about all American gerim have been funneled into RCA beis dins. So, if the RCA did anything stupid (like went off the Avi Weiss deep end) it would create a lot of mamzers. I imagine Agudas “keeping them in check” helps keep this from happening.
Do you have any examples of when the RCA has ever “kept Agudas in check?”
If you unscrew the filter because it can’t be kashered, this tends to happen. Sometimes it’s not worth it/not possible to get a new one; thus, you have faucets cleverly designed to soak your entire shirt when you turn them on [all the way]. You get used to only turning your faucet on half way to avoid it.
An Anti-Gefiltic conspiracy?
We don’t usually pasken by the Rambam, and how is he relevant for a debate about the IDF? I’ve noticed sort of a trend in the CR that when someone is defending an argument that goes against the mainstream, and their back is against the wall, they quote the Rambam or pasken straight from the parshah. I agree with the others that it’s unimpressive. Not that I totally disagree with Avi. In fact, we probably see eye to eye about working with learning.
Yes, to expand of what Dvash said, some people will spell it Bratzlav or Breslov. I first got into it via Rebbe Nachman’s Stories, which have really good commentary by R. Aryeh Kaplan. If you want community, though, and you plan on staying in America, it’s a bit tricky. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing but good things to say about Breslev, but there aren’t many significant, organized communities in The States. There are some in Boro Park and maybe Monsey, but it would be all Yiddish speaking I think.
In theory, the Na Nachs are just a group that hold by the “petek.” A note found by R. Odesser which says to sing the “Na Nach” chant. While there’s no inherent harm in singing a random chant, the group has grown into a kind of anarchist, Neo-Chassidic group. In other words, some of them might do some things (particularly in the naggia and tznius categories) that are outside of the limits of Chassidism and that Rebbe Nachman never would have condoned.
No reason to stay away from sects that have no living Rebbe. Breslev has done wonders for BT’s in Israel. It still has leadership that follows the same trend as Litvish leadership as opposed to being decided by family dynasty. When I say Breslev, I’m not talking about the Na Nachs. There are plenty of Breslevers just as legitimate as any Chassidim, they just happen to not have a living dynasty. I would recommend Breslev if you were in Israel, in the US I think that would be a bit tougher. I suspect 147’s comment about 0 Rebbes was a thinly veiled dig at a different, well-known Chassidus that will remain unnamed by those of us who actually have some respect.
I think this decision should always be based on which Chassidus you like learning best. And if you don’t know Yiddish, that probably eliminates more than half of them.
I saw this thread and came to post, but it looks like Joseph said a lot of what needed to be said. Just because people have a lot of intermarriages, and a lot of non-halachic kids, doesn’t mean they’re raising those kids Jewish. Of those who are raised Jewish and aren’t halachic, they will most likely go on to marry goyim and not raise their kids Jewish. The odds of a family line descending from an intermarriage and continuing for long enough for it to be ambiguous are extremely slim.
There’s another question of how many halachic Jews are out there being raised as Christians. The woman tends to get her way when it comes to the religion of the kids in all corners of society, so hopefully this doesn’t often happen.
BP probably has a better chance of coming from Muslimland. American companies try to get their oil from Canada.
The point is irrelevant. Anything you could ever buy was, in one way or another, made available to you by the use of oil.
“Are you advocating the abolition of cigarette taxes?”
Why not?
100% Agree with ZD. It’s getting to be where there are a few select places that are frum, affordable, and safe. If you’re rich enough, you can afford the tuition. If you’re poor enough, you can get it subsidized. It’s boxing out the frum middle class.
“Recognizing the largely secular founders of the modern state of Israel, he pointed out “what was here 80 years ago. They (the pioneers of the modern state) were the emissaries of the Holy One blessed be He, in their merit we sit to study Torah. We have to be grateful to the Holy One blessed be He.”
I find it very hard to believe that this statement was referring to the fervent secularists like Herzl and Ben Yehudah. I suspect the quote is taken out of context and has been applied in this way by media outlets and eventually trickled its way onto the YWN forums like a game of telephone. Can anyone confirm/deny that Rav Yosef (or any sane Rabbi) would actually call atheist extremists “the emissaries of HKBH?”
What color stripes are on a tallis also has nothing to do with Halachah. Yes, it is correct that there are plenty of minhagim that have nothing to do with Halachah.
However, as for those that do, it’s not because one side is going against halachah and the other isn’t. There can be differing halachic opinions without it meaning that one is “trumping the halachah.”
Also, I thought somebody mentioned on another thread that the Rema considered Kitniyos fully assur. I really don’t know enough about that to weigh in, but if anyone else does it would appreciated.
Sorry I didn’t actually see that part of your post I guess. That is interesting.
“And I’m not sure what you mean, are you saying some hold the HALACHA is a 14 year old shouldnt wear a tallis gadol!?!?”
No, I’m saying that EVERYONE holds that anyone at any age isn’t halachically required to wear a tallis gadol. The minhag is to avoid it, the halachah is that they still have to wear a tallis katan. Those who say you should wear before marriage still don’t say it’s halachically required.
Waiting until marriage is mentioned by the Maharil, so it isn’t a specifically eastern thing historically. Seems like the original minhag was probably not to wait until marriage, then all Ashkenazim waited until marriage, then the Yekkes went back to the original while the Polish and anyone further east kept doing like the Maharil (that’s my assumption).
There’s no reason to theorize the reason for the minhag. It has a source, that’s all it needs.
As for the OP, if you are in the habit of wearing a tallis, you probably should not stop regardless of your father’s customs.
There’s no mitzvah to wear a tallis gadol. Those who wait until marriage shouldn’t be putting off a mitzvah, they should still wear tzitzis.
The tallis debate doesn’t conform to what I said about minhag being about how we hold in the halachah because the tallis isn’t a halachic issue.
Bump
No. We haven’t proven that minhag overrides halacha. We’ve proven that sometimes when we say minhag, we mean how you and your group hold in the halachah. Eg. Those of us who wrap teffilin on chol hamoed (especially those who do so with a brachah) hold that it is required. Those who don’t hold that you can’t. We don’t look at the other side as thought they’re breaking halachah through their minhag, we just respectfully disagree on what the halacha is. That’s really what minhag is, respectful disagreements in the halachah. This includes not eating in the Sukkah on Sh”A
We don’t wear techeiles for the same reason we don’t bring korbanos to the beis hamikdash: it’s impossible!
ZD: The takana was created in Brooklyn New York, so I don’t think it has anything to do with those reasons. If people find it hard to find a defense for the takana, it’s probably because it’s utterly indefensible.
Joseph: If they’re both equally good matches for the daughter then why wouldn’t you let her date the Nigerian? I thought your argument was that it’s okay as long as it’s out of personal preference. But, if they’re both “equally good matches” then doesn’t that imply they both fit her personal preference?
How many more posts till the thread gets closed? My bet is 7.
Unfortunately I think Joseph’s alt account making days ended far before I got here.
I don’t think most gerim would disagree about being bothered by being pushed into marrying other gers or BTs. I also imagine it’s pretty common for male gers to feel bad about causing a female to give up minhagei avos for minhagim that aren’t exactly minhagei avos. I assume the “unusual view” you refer to is the fact that I’m not outraged by the reasonable expectation that one has a lot in common with the one he/she will be spending his/her life with. I think that’s just a matter of how empathetic a person is.
I can understand why it’s easier to write me off as a poser than to comprehend a ger who doesn’t fit into your narrative. I can also understand why it’s easier to write off anyone who sides with Joseph as an alt account (and in the past that would have had a high probability of being true). But, I will never understand the left’s insistence on trying to speak for groups of which they are not a part. See my above Redskins example.
Oh I wasn’t accusing anyone of having a minhag that trumps halachah. I just think the clapping one is a tough to understand one kind of like not eating in the Sukkah. I’ve heard the argument for clapping only while dancing on Shabbos like the Chasidim, but that seemed like more of an explanation rather than an actual halachic justification to me if you follow me. I wondered if maybe they consider the dancing and zmiros singing to be their form of a shinui so to speak.
Does the Rema actually fully allow clapping however and whenever? Or, is it more like “if someone claps because they don’t know better, they can rely on this tosafos. If you know better, then you shouldn’t clap.”
“Guy 1 “why are you doing [fill in the blank] it is keneged halacha?”
Guy 2 “Oh it is my minhag and “minhag trumps halacha”
DY “It doesn’t.””
I love this. This exact conversation has happened so many times in the CR.
Ubi, I think you have it pretty much right. But, don’t ever say “minhag trumps halachah” out of context. I think R’ Moshe was talking about the Litvaks who otherwise follow Ashkenzi, non-Chassidishe minhagim with the Nusach Sphard thing as a matter of being consistent. He had to know his rulings mean nothing to actual Chassidim, but might mean something to Litvaks who have adopted some Chassidish minhagim like Nusach Sphard because they like it of whatever.
DY: Could you elaborate on the clapping thing at all? I’ve noticed that Sphardim tend to clap backhandedly on Shabbos to show a difference while Litvaks don’t tend to clap at all (especially not during davening). Are you saying the Rema is the source for the clap-only-during-davening? Or that he said it’s mutar to clap whenever you want on Shabbos?
I never said I would rule out marrying a non FFB (such a restriction would probably leave someone in my shoes single forever). I said it is preferable for the reasons I mentioned in my first post. I don’t buy into the narrative that BTs and Gers should marry others of their kind. This leaves them a bit clueless when it comes to raising the kids.
I’ve seen the FFB-preferring crowd dragged through the mud on anonymous forums and I don’t think it’s fair. They have legitimate reasons.
I would not really limit myself in particular in shidduchim to answer the original post. However, I would feel a lot of guilt making a Sphardi girl give up her minhagim for mine especially since mine weren’t even passed down like her’s presumably would have been. Has anyone looked at it this way?
“Hence people trying to defend them. Do you care about these mitsvos?
(Again, I believe you are no Ger.)”
You can’t get around the mitzvah by dismissing any ger who’s opinions you don’t like. Why don’t you think I am (other than thinking I’m a Joseph alt which can easily be disproved with a couple of clicks)? Is it because I’m not as easily offended by people’s marriage choices as you would like me to be?
This is like when the liberals fought tooth and nail over the Redskins team name thing, but when they found out that actual Native Americans didn’t care, they were disappointed.
He’s also in his rights not to pay you the fair value, which I think automatically returns it to you. I might have a few inaccuracies in my explanation, but, suffice it to say, it really isn’t as simple as the chametz just being sold to the goy and then bought back. That’s how we talk about, that’s probably how it was once done, but I there’s definitely more to it than that.
Most do not sleep in the Sukkah on Shmini Atzeres because of concern that it would get in the way of enjoying the holiday which is technically a new holiday.
Some people do not eat in it during the night of Smini Atzeres but do during the day for the same rationale.
Some don’t all day for the same reasons.
An example that I’m surprised hasn’t come up yet for you, Ubi: Some people (namely Chasidim) are strict to never clap for applause on Shabbos, but when davening or singing Shabbos zmiros, it suddenly becomes magically mutar to clap and bang on tables. The Chazon Ish himself apparently denounced this one. I’ve never understood how this could have a halachic basis, but like DY said, we have to assume it does. If anyone knows the explanation I would be really interested to hear it.
And, why does everyone feel the need to champion the cause of converts being “discriminated against” in shidduchim?
We gerim don’t care! It’s an understandable rationale. Yes it makes shidduchim harder for BTs and gers, but we can’t blame the individuals, and it has nothing to do with racism.
CT, it’s not entirely about identity. Some people find the Chinese less attractive, some find them more attractive just as with hair color or any other preference. Assimilating into western culture doesn’t change your appearance.
ZD: I heard Aharon haKohen himself wouldn’t have let his sons marry Ruth 😉
Mdd:
“I would marry Satmar (if she does not require a lot of chumros) or MO (if Halochically observant).”
In other words, no to both.
“Ashkenazi marrying only Ashkenazi? Not good.”
Yes, and there you have it: Ashkenaz marrying only Ashkenaz bad, Sfard marrying only Sfard fine. FFB marrying only FFB bad, BT marrying only BT fine. Further showing that even within Judaism we have our own political correctness code full of double standards just like in the rest of the world.
The way I think it works:
You sell the chametz to the goy on loan, so to speak, and the money he gives you initially is collateral (nowhere near as much as the actual value of chametz). After pesach, you “forgive the debt” and give back the collateral for the chametz. It’s pretty much as Ubiquitin explained. The chametz really is the goy’s just like a house really is your’s if you buy it with a loan. If you don’t pay back the loan, the bank takes the house as is probably stipulated in the contract. The same is true here (I think).
I have to agree with Joseph on the black thing. People usually have race-preferences when it comes to attractiveness; the progressives have just made it really hard to talk about. It’s no different than having a hair or eye color preference as long as it isn’t rooted in racism. The problem is the liberals who like to scream about how everything is rooted in racism.
I’m actually a ger (not black though) and I would prefer to marry FFBs just as much as the next guy. People seem to have this assumption that BTs will fit better with BTs and gers with other gers. But, think about it, this is advocating for two people who don’t know what it’s like to be raised in an observant home to try to raise kids in an observant home. It’s way easier if at least one parent is FFB. I don’t understand being offended when people say they prefer FFBs over gers and BTs; it makes perfect sense to me.
There are no real examples of “minhag trumping halachah.” I wish people would stop trying to invent them here.
Mik:
Those who don’t learn Torah on nittel nacht still say the Shema and are technically learning Torah (if it really “trumped halachah” then they wouldn’t even do this).
About the brachas hashachar, perhaps the Shulchan Aruch HaRav says otherwise?
The Sukkah thing is interesting. I noticed that in the Kitzur he says that people started neglecting to sleep in the Sukkah, so poskim used a technicality of say it’s mutar so that there wouldn’t be so many people blatantly violating halachah. I assume this is where that minhag came from.
Washing for seudah shlishi is not, by any stretch of the imagination, “halachic.”
The Rema advocated making Havdallah on beer after Pesach; needless to say, I don’t think he was the “kicking the sukkah down” type.
Syag, I personally didn’t see mw’s left wing comment as an attack on you. I think we all get that you’re defending ZD the person, not the stance. But, like I said in my above post, one doesn’t have to call someone else out by name to offend them. People on this thread have been calling a minhag silly and stupid. Frankly, if we didn’t have halacha and YWN mods to stop us, my responses to the vitriol against a minhag expressed here would probably be a lot less cordial than mw’s.
If an anti-Semite writes an essay arguing why Jews are wrong in every way, we would probably feel personally offended even if not mentioned by name.
If someone wrote an essay arguing why all Ashkenazi or Sephardi Minhagim are wrong, those of that minhag would probably feel personally offended even if not mentioned by name.
If (like what seems to be happening here) some Ashkenazim who eat gebrokts argue that all those who avoid gebrokts are categorically wrong, those who are machmir will feel personally offended. I 100% sympathize with those who took personal offense here.
Just observe, there have been several posters here attacking the overall custom of not eating gebrokts. Yet, NOBODY here has made a blanket criticism of those who eat gebrokts; it has only been the criticism of those maligning others’ minhagim.
OK well Pesach is over. We have our beer; we don’t have to be cranky anymore, or “motivated by the yetzer harah.”
I have been reading the CR for years (well before I started posting), and I know that Syag Lchochma is one of the kindest and most reasonable posters here. His/her last comment was a bit ambiguous; I’m not entirely sure if I’m being criticized sarcastically or actually lauded. If it’s the former, then I’m honestly sorry if I offended anyone (especially Zahavasdad who seems to be the center of this discussion now). If it was actual praise, then I don’t see how my comment was much nicer than any of mw’s. I really hope no argument persists between mw and Syag because I feel like we’re all really on the same side.
Mw and DY’s posts are perfectly reasonable and understandable given the vitriol that’s been thrown out against a respectable minhag on this thread. I think it’s really admirable to see posters putting significant time into defending a custom that isn’t even their own.
Mammele: Be careful what you wish for. ZD might actually agree with your counter about buying OU chicken.
I have to agree with what mw said, as haughty as it may come across: everyone, including ZD himself, knows that it’s a baseless argument, but we aren’t ones to admit defeat easily here on the CR.
If companies were losing money on non-gebrokts items, they would either raise the prices of THOSE items (not everything else) or just stop selling them. Contrary to what seems to be the belief, the companies that make these foods are still for-profit. They aren’t holy organizations set out to make sure there are affordable non-gebrokts foods for machmirim at the expense of everyone else. That theory makes no economic or common sense.
When I saw this thread title I knew you were going to have commented, DY. I’ve seen you correct this misconception on so many CR threads before.
The religious left has a tendency of acting like Sphardi minhagim are categorically better than Ashkenazi. This probably comes from the tendency of all forms of leftists to act like all things Western are bad. Kitniyos is probably the epitome of Ashkenazi minhag because it’s one of the few that’s kept in all corners of the Ashkenazi world (Yekkes, Chasidim, Litvaks, Oberland…).
One could (but shouldn’t) argue that, thanks to clocks, we shouldn’t have to keep a second day of yom tov in the exile. Obviously, this argument would be absurd and laughed at. It is beyond my comprehension why people don’t treat avoiding kitniyos with similar gravity. We don’t logic our way out of minhagim.
Sometimes I tell people that the one positive thing the Conservative movement has done is served as a warning against this logic-based heter creating. The Conservative movement in America just “allowed” kitniyos. Now there will be people thinking they can just buy a bag of rice and call it a day, not realizing how much effort and care Sphardim put in before they eat kitniyos.
I read in an old halacha article here on YWN that one source says that not even Moshiach will have the authority to undo the kitniyos minhag. Does anyone have that source?
Crown Heights, Waterbury, Baltimore, Washington Heights, etc.
When you grow up in an area with an extremely above average crime rate, you tend to think it’s normal. I grew up in an area where nobody even locks their doors.
Hot plates can be kashered for pesach. The process is listed on the star-k’s website. The gebrokts avoider could get his own hot plates for cooking, his own pans and plates and essentially make his own kitchen. As someone mentioned earlier, BTs and gerim are all too used to this kind of problem.
I agree with Joseph that “eat off the keilim anyway” is a non-solution.
Also, for the record, the minhag of kitniyos trumps any concerns about shalom bayis any day. Avoiding kitniyos is an extremely important minhag, it is not at all comparable to gebrokts.
I completely agree with Syag L’chochmah on this thread (as I often do). There has been a lot of let-them-eat-cake commenting going on here.
The very home costs that gavra mentioned should answer his question. If a person is making less than 100k annually and had to get a house for over 400k, then the money is going towards the house! And, there’s no way they’ll have 10k+ leftover per year for tuition!
The reality seems to be that frum communities in the US are either in areas where you have to be a millionaire, or areas where you have to worry about your kids being stabbed.
Zogt: You might be right. It could just be that there were people holding like the Rambam who decided they’ve already waited almost 6 full hours so they might as well go all the way, but did not do the same for poultry since it’s rabbinic.
In other words, you’re probably right about the mixing of sources.
Joseph: It comes from the Rambam who apparently said to wait “about” 6 hours. If you’ve waited 5 full hours, that means you’re in the sixth hour. Just like if you’re 25 years old, you’re in your 26th year. Some Sphardim I know wait 6 full hours for beef, and wait “into the sixth hour” for poultry.
So, yes, it means they start eating milchig 5 hours or 5 and a half hours after fleishig. I don’t really know with what area the minhag would be associated. I’ve never actually come across anyone who only wait into the sixth for all types of meat.
I’m sorry, Sam. I did misunderstand that; that was my fault.
Joseph: Correct. Why are these Sphardim different from all others? 😉
Amsterdam Sphardi, yes.