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Sechel:
How many yidden think it’s OK to clap and dance on Shabbos thanks to Chabad when their ancestors never would have due to an explicit issur in the Gemara?
How many yidden think tefillin should be huge because the dimensions of Chabad tefillin are, at best, borderline pasul?
How many yidden think Benedictine is Kosher when every Kashrus agency says it’s not?
How many hours are spent learning strictly chassidus instead of focusing on shas?“Your are truly a fine specimen of a misnaged [sic]”
Jeez it must be really hard with everyone hating you as a Lubavitcher for no good reason. Clearly you all just have so much ahavas Yisroel that you would never talk down to other types of frum Yidden like us evil misnagdim.Syag, I’m really sorry to have gotten on your bad side in this thread since we were in agreement on everything beforehand. You should know from my other posts here and elsewhere that I fully agree with you when it comes to opinions of Lubavitcher’s views of other frum yidden; I’m just not sure that particular statement from Chabadshlucha warranted the response it got. Did you think she was singling out R. Eliyashiv for criticism? I truly didn’t take it that way; maybe I’m just being naive.
Chabadshlucha: This thread should at least somewhat open your eyes to the fact that Lubavitcher’s poor treatment of other frum yidden is not limited to a couple isolated incidents. Whenever Lubavitchers are asked to reconcile it, the response almost always involves a lecture on how much nicer they are to chilonim. That was the meaning on my comment.
OK, I can see that a lot of posts went through before I hit submit on my last one and many more are awaiting moderation, so the tone might have changed a bit; in particular stuff like: ” I don’t know of other segment of the tzibur with such ahavas yisroel . End of story….nothing more to say.”
Chabadshlucha: I still think you were probably pushed over the edge further than you wanted by this thread, but I hope you can see that it’s comments like that from Lubavitchers, whether provoked or not, that irk the rest of us. Having ahavas Yisroel for chilonim does not exempt you from having to have ahavas Yisroel for the rest of the frum world.
Joseph: I hope you don’t actually not know about the differences with Chabad mikvehs and that the question was purely academic. We can NOT be yotzei on Chabad Mikvehs, I heard even b’dieved, but maybe it’s possible to get a heter in some situation. The holes in Chabad mikvehs are on the floor; the natural water is underneath instead of beside. The logic is exactly as Chabadshlucha described above. I struggle to see how making a new mikveh design different from that used for centuries “avoids issues” though.
P.S. To straddle the line and make everyone mad at me like I always do: I think people are being a little hard on Chabadshlucha. I don’t think she meant to be arrogant in saying she wouldn’t quote non-Chabad rabbis. Just like we don’t cherry pick minhagim at our leisure, they also stick to their’s. Chabad takes it a bit further with the concept of being “bittul to the Rebbe,” which seems to imply that they don’t learn any Torah by which they don’t hold; they only lean shittahs that they would apply practically. It would be like saying “I only learn Mishnah Berurah and no other commentaries because it’s what I hold to be halachah l’maseh.” It’s a foreign concept to Litvaks, but I doubt they’re the only Chassidim with this approach. Do you really think Belzers, Satmars, Bobovers, etc would quote HaRav Eliyashiv either?
I’m annoyed that people DID actually offer up points about why Chabad is separate from other chassidim other than just Levush, and yet all the counter arguments just focused on that one point to make it seem like an invalid argument.
Also, Chabad received harsh opposition from a lot of the other early Chassidim like Avraham of Kalisk. So, the assertion that NO chassidim would ever exist were it not for the Alter Rebbe (an assertion I’ve heard many times from Lubavitchers) is demonstrative of the characteristic lack of any sense of proportion.
I think the OP has his answer. Although, now that I’m apparently categorized as a follower of “Litvish Chassidus,” I guess anything goes; it’s open season on labeling people as Chassidim.
ZD: Breslevers like Rabbi Yaavok Meir Schechter would count as Chassidim along with any old-school Breslevers that speak Yiddish etc. I assume what you’re referring to are the neo-Chassidish Breslevers like Na Nachs and the Chassidishly-influenced, in which case I agree. I think we’re on the same page, I just wanted to clarify that.
The difference is that Chabad has both Neo-Chassidim (who are definitely not real Chassidim) and old school Lubavitchers who are still completely different from the rest of Chassidim.
From experience, when Lubavitchers say “Chasidim,” they’re mainly talking about Chabad or, at the very least, including themselves in the greater Chassidishe world.
Most people probably aren’t talking about Lubavitchers when they say chassidim. Lubavitcher’s use pronunciation like Litvaks, they hold by the Gra’s times, they don’t dress like other Chassidim, they don’t seem to get married as early at other Chassidim, etc.
Satmars. Sorry I left it out.
Knowing that the OP is a Baal Teshuva from other threads, we should be narrowing down the neighborhoods. Williamsburg would obviously not be viable; and, as I said earlier, I don’t think BP would be either. Unless lightbright is just asking out of curiosity and not considering moving to either place; that much was unclear.
How did we get on Lakewood?
LB, don’t get too caught up in the banter between the Queens and Brooklyn people; they would both be good communities.
Brooklyn is a bit more clearly divided than Queens: Crown Heights is for Lubavitchers, Flatbush is for Litvaks, and Boro Park is for Chasidim. The Queens communities are a bit more mixed I think. The language barrier would most likely be problematic for Boro Park. If you’re going down the Chabad path, you should be forewarned that Crown Heights is an extremely unsafe neighborhood. I don’t know as much about Queens, but the downside there would be that you would most likely have a longer commute.
I’m glad this thread was started. I’ve always wondered how we got to the point where one “must” remove tefillin before musaf when people once kept them on all day.
CTLawyer: That’s called chukas hagoyim.
Yeah, I have to admit, I also looked into the study out of curiosity and it seems like possibly fake news.
That being said, I wouldn’t consider it “shocking” if the numbers were true. 50% seems about right from what I’ve seen.
Lightbright:
How would you feel about throwing OU cottage cheese into the bowl, so that we can have a discussion about that too while we’re here?
Maybe there’s a bunch of accounts named Joseph with trailing spaces after the name to make them unique.
Jeez. I scimmed over a few posts and the next thing I know people are arguing about government funding…
By the way, if there’s any hope of this thread getting back on track: some people keep chalav Yisroel l’chumra, not as a halachah. So, they would be fine with giving chalav stam to other or eating off of chalav stam equipment.
I doubt that’s a thing for Sherry Whisky or whatever.
“Neville, what about marrying the children of someone who cheats in business or is a baal lashon hara?”
Is this a joke based on my post on another thread? Please tell me you aren’t serious.
No, “yeah whatever” is 100% the correct response.
Some older people think it’s just open season to spread all kinds of false garbage about younger generations and the second we dispute it we’re “disrespecting our elders.” They’re only proving the point. They can dish it out all day long, but they can’t take the heat. The lesson is, don’t be that way when you’re older. What’s changed is that we have internet anonymity now. What people thought 40 years ago, they can now say behind a CR username. Which brings us back to the OP, I guess.
CT, I’m not talking about you anymore, by the way. Your comment was not that big of a deal.
“They were not forced to divorce. He is a Passul Cohen ”
And she is a Passul ger. Their marriage is assur so she did not take on the mitzvos. No kabbalos mitzvos, no geirus.
I cannot imagine their children and grandchildren being fully religious. What religious person would actually marry them?
“I hope Joseph you will be correcting the Abusers , Tax cheats and other people who commit such averiahs”
How many times must this argument be made on the CR? Can we just officially recognize it as the national slogan of the Modern Orthodoxy?
“You must learn patience, your generation expects instant gratification and you’ll not find it here.”
Your generation is weak and forgetful and cannot figure out how to use basic technology.
I don’t actually mean what I just said, but how do you like it when the shoe is on the other foot? Do people have nothing better to do than spread conspiracy theories about how young people all think as one collective brain?
Waze is only a few years old, so yeah. We do the same thing you did a few year ago, I assume. Use a GPS. There isn’t a lot of yetzer hara involved with using a Garmin. Albeit, it might be a little worse than a dull knife, but not everything can be perfect.
Part 2:
Every post other than your own that you’re reading on the CR, no matter what the username is, is actually Joseph. Everyone but you is Joseph! Unless you are Joseph, in which case you’re Joseph.
I thought Zahavasdad’s point was pretty clear.
I think what he’s saying is true. Those 100 college kids who learn once a week with their local Chabad, and will probably stay frie forever all have parents with wallets. That’s 99 more wallets than the 1 full success.
That being said, the thread is supposed to be about the halachic merit. To me, the bigger problem is that kiruv ends up building a kind of PC culture where a lot more is presented as acceptable than really is. Eg. “Yeah, of course you can be a totally good Jewish woman and wear short shorts! There’s NOTHING wrong with it!” They assume they’ll get a chance to tell them the truth later, but that chance doesn’t always come.
For the record, I love this thread. 2017 and Joseph’s still got it. And, here we are giving serious responses to a post that’s obviously at least 60% troll.
Are all mods actually one person?
Find out next time on Coffee Room EXPOSED!
Simple:
Breslev = Not Chabad.
Chabad doesn’t like any frum group who aren’t Chabad.
Therefore, by the transitive property, Chabad doesn’t like Breslev.I’m sure it’s amplified by the fact that Breslev also practices kiruv. Before people go trying to “prove me wrong” by talking about how nice Chabad is to fried out yidden, when have you heard them speak highly of Litvaks? Or of other kiruv groups like Aish and company?
I certainly am not anti-Lubavitch; we all have our issues. But, the idea that a group MUST have done something to earn Chabad’s scorn is totally out of line.
I wholesale dismiss this entire idea of generational personality theory.
Open floor plans are stupid. If someones is being noisy in the kitchen, you can’t concentrate anywhere in like 60% of the house.
There’s a time and place for everything. I think he should have exclusively rebuked the Neo Nazis in this case, and we all know I’m not one to criticize Trump frivolously.
We had a president for 8 years who never criticized Islamic terrorism or Black domestic terrorism. It would still be easy to find clips of Kerry saying there’s a certain “rationale” to the Islamic terrorist (not that he would ever call them Islamic terrorists). We need someone to criticize leftist extremism harshly and consistently, but in the wake of a Neo Nazi murdering people is not the time to do it. Having said that, I don’t know that the killer was known to be from that side when Trump made his statement.
As for the RCA, yeah, whatever. When was the last time they ever said anything that wasn’t utterly moronic and out of line?
I agree with mw. If the traffic were caused by some goyish concert, you wouldn’t be posting.
“Remember the Bob Grant proposal for mandatory sterilization of welfare moms after 2 out of wedlock children (1970 or so). It was extreme and unconstitutional but made sense”
Woah, did CT get hacked? I thought he was a leftist?
Good thing Chasidim don’t have out of wedlock children.
Apples to apples is pretty much the worst game ever made. How did a game where getting points is based on a purely subjective decision get so big?
Wow. Those links totally messed up the whole page for me.
Back up, rent is really only about 750 a month in Lakewood?
Won’t be long before we all collectively leave this world and enter a fantasy realm of pure imagination, so can’t spend too much time posting.
I’ll see you all when we return to the real world motzei Shabbos.
Popa isn’t saying doctors aren’t good people. He isn’t saying they don’t love their mothers or that they watch TV on Shabbos when they’re not on call. I think the point he’s making is that it’s a lot more intrusive in frum life than other professions. You would have a home in which Dad goes to work every Shabbos; that’s a bit scary for child-raising even if it is mutar. Kids don’t understand these things so easily.
If someone is already a doctor and they want to become frum, nobody is saying they should stay out on account of their profession. But, if you are young and are thinking about med school, these are things to be considered. They shouldn’t just be sworn off even if someone’s uncle’s cousin’s friend DID manage to make it work.
But if it were true THEN your spiritual, nontraditional form would be real?
Actually, you could pretty much make a whole spin-off thread where you rewrite this OP’s post about baseball instead of Catholicism and trying to play at Yankee stadium or something with your own spiritual baseball version. That would be pretty funny.
“But Judaism is different from Catholicism. A Jew, no matter how far, is still a Jew.”
Yeah, what makes you think a bad Catholic isn’t still a Catholic?
CT, like I said, I agree with everything you say as far as politics are concerned except for the bit about the Constitution. But, the reality is, if I have several kids and vouchers will save me tens of thousands, you better believe I’ll vote for vouchers. What gave you the idea that I don’t vote? To the contrary, I think you’re squashing your own voice if you just vote based on interpretation of American, Constitutional values. Everyone should vote for their own selfish interests and the sum of all of those will come together to form a collective interest.
As for the Constitution, I think it’s the height of absurdity to act like the Constitution actually protects any of your rights. If someone were to want to establish a totalitarian regime, a moldy piece of parchment is not going to stop them. The Manga Carta didn’t stop Cromwell, the Weimar Republic’s constitution didn’t stop Hitler. The idea is completely unsubstantiated. In fact, in recent years, the US Constitution has been used to squash popular interest like the in prop 8 situation in California, constantly in states where the voter base favors gun control, to say nothing of the 18th Amendment. So, I don’t believe the popular vote should be squashed for a centuries old document; do I belong in North Korea for that?
PS. I live in CT too. Don’t worry, I don’t take any of this stuff home with me. I would absolutely vote for you if I had the chance.
Ah, what DY said is actually really interesting.
I had actually assumed people were always suggesting that the goverment either pay in full for Yeshiva tuition or give a tax break for the full amount. Now, I think I understand a little more.
If you live in a town in which $2000 of your yearly income goes to funding a public school that you don’t even use, why not get that money back to use on education. That’s what it’s for, right?
I know the answer to my own question though. That would open the doors to everyone without kids opting to get the money back, plus everyone going the private schools. Those left sending their kids to public school would get hit with way higher taxes. In principle, I agree with CT Lawyer, but I don’t vote on principle so that’s irrelevant. I would always support the voucher system; frum yidden shouldn’t advocate for all of us having to spend thousands more per year just to satisfy a multiple century old document written by goyim (the constitution).
What the heck?
Thought this was going to be about the Lubavitcher heter to drink Benedictine Liqueur. I wasn’t far off I guess.
Dang, I hate when I make grammatical mistakes. Why didn’t the auto-correct on my iPhone catch that?
I don’t doubt there are Modern Orthodox shuls where most women cover their hair. What people have to remember is that there are a ton of Modern Orthodox shuls all over the country (not just in the areas with good communities like NY, NJ) where they are the only Orthodox shul in town. In these places, tznius is totally off the radar. When the only other Jews in town are reform, all you have to do is not wear short-shorts to be “super machmir” on tznius.
On my “before it was cool” comment. What I mean is that I was criticizing her geirus before everyone on the internet was.
Picture this hypothetical: you’re a serious convert, and you find that the beis din you’re using converted the daughter of a high profile figure who is now going around publicly speaking in sleeveless shirts and uncovered hair. You want to change to another beis din, but you can’t because the Zionists have pigeon holed all conversions to go through the left-wing RCA.
I heard a rumor (probably more likely than the OP’s rumor) that Ivanka didn’t actually go through a Rabbanut recognized beis din. Not sure if that’s true.
I work in IT, let me walk you through this:
The first thing you need to do is light a fire and burn you’re chametz in it. The second thing you need to do is throw the smart phone in the fire. 😉
Oh and, Avi, sorry about my response on your 3rd point. It was disingenuous. I think you and I are mostly in agreement; I was mistaken in thinking you were actually going to try and defend the Kushners’ behavior, but I can understand being sick of hearing about Ivanka’s conversion in general.
To me, the whole Ivanka subject has irked me personally for a long time in a way that I can’t convey in an online forum (nor should I try). Suffice it to say, I was complaining about her gerus “before it was cool,” so to see other people doing the same has been kind of exciting, but nonetheless probably won’t accomplish anything.
Sarah Levine:
I truly hope you’re a troll account created by someone trying to make the modern orthodoxy look bad.
I don’t think I’ve ever found myself defending the MO in the CR, but MO Rabbis don’t actually say that hair covering isn’t the halachah. They may turn the blind eye while 90% of their congregants act that way, but please don’t say hair covering is the same thing as keeping Cholov Yisroel. I want to win in an argument with the MO, but not like this. There’s no honor in this.
On a side note, what she said about cold dishes is correct. I think there’s a tendency of some MO people to eat even hot food off of treif utensils if the food itself is kosher (not saying this is mainstream). I don’t want to derail this thread too much though.
“It is not fair for a Georess to be judged by bullet-proof stockings, sheitel or tichel, plus many other humrus.”
The fact that a community exists that considers hilchos tznius to be all “humrus [sic]” is precisely the problem. It’s getting more attention now that someone from that community is in the Presidents family and administration.
Avi:
On #1 I fully agree. If secular media chooses to show them as role models, isn’t it our right to object?
#2 Um so correcting the record when somebody else makes a chillul hashem is also a chillul hashem now? Face it, you know you’re grasping for straws when you pull out the absurd assertion that all Orthodox yidden are slum lords and frauds.
#3 “Besides, do you really think that there are no other gerim who backslide just as do born Jews” No, hence why my post was written generally and did NOT reference Ivanka. You’re the one that brought her into it. Funny that.
What’s with the title of this thread? Neither the OP or subsequent posts are a general conversation. This has all been specific to Ivanka.
To be general: the point that’s been made that questioning a ger might be lashon hara while not questioning an invalid ger has no consequences is totally absurd. The entire nation having a twisted and incorrect definition of Orthodoxy thanks to one high-profile person is much more destructive than the minute possibility that that person will find their way to the CR and be offended.
It doesn’t have to be high-profile even. Even if there’s a fake ger in some small community, within that community they’re making a chillul hashem. And, they’re damaging the integrity of gerim, which nobody ever seems to care about other than real gerim.
The OU is by no means Litvish, nor of “excellent repute.” They happen to not be Chassidim (that’s for sure) and they have grown to be such a big hechsher that you practically couldn’t live if you boycotted them.
Otherwise, I agree with your post, Catch Yourself. I think Gadol Hatorah must have been sarcastic though. He usually has extreme religiously liberal views on news articles, so it wouldn’t really add up.
Wow, this thread really exploded far beyond the original question.
LB: I have met a lot of people who seem to have the same question. I don’t think there’s any way to fully put yourself in the other sides shoes. Let me explain what I mean:
There are people (like myself) who are really into Gemarra and every possible situation in practical halachah that could, but probably never would arise. A lot of others consider this totally dry and are more into philosophical stuff like Chassidus. They don’t understand how a person could sit and learn “dry” technical stuff for more than a half hour without getting bored. People like myself don’t understand how the other side can listen to inspirational/philosophical stuff over and over without getting tired of it. It all starts to sound the same to me.For BT’s: People on the more philosophical side like I described (like you seem to be) tend to be drawn more towards Chassidus, while people into the technical would probably prefer the Litvish velt. As for FFB’s, they all just do what they were raised to do ideally.