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Sounds like you’re talking about a Chareidi state and a Zionist state. That’s only 2 states. Why does the title read “3 state solution?”
Everyone would get modded if they said what they were thinking, so what’s the point.
RGP started many years ago, then apparently forgot her account info, and then randomly figured it out again this past year (I think that’s what she claimed). It’s possible she made an alt when she couldn’t log onto her main account.
“Neville, where did you ever hear that the Eidah HeChareidis posken’s that they’re safek Jews?”
When did you hear they don’t? They’re machmir in both directions, as I described. It clearly doesn’t make them any more meikel in their expectations for the geirus process.“MH please tell us your source telling us there a source we can search isn’t a source please name the Gemara or I will assume you made it up”
I found it. See above.RGP: “What does it matter what the Eidah thinks? How is that relevant?”
It shows that they aren’t vadai goyim according to any major de’os. You already established HaRav Ovadia Yosef’s opinion, which MH apparently doesn’t hold by. He seems to be assuming there are poskim out there who take his approach, but I do not know of any, nor has he brought any.The daf Millhouse seems to be talking about is 16b in Yevamos. It is halachah not aggadeta; he’s right. It’s talking about whether or not a marriage between a goyish man and a Jewish woman might be a valid kiddushin because of the possibility that the man is from the 10 lost tribes. It gets shot down essentially because the 10 tribes are separated and therefore it follows mechtzah al mechtzah: rov goyim are not from the 10 tribes therefore we assume each individual goy is a goy gamor (if I’m understanding correctly; I just skimmed).
I have to agree with Millhouse that, based on this, it seems like anyone who tries to claim a group is one of the lost tribes would be arguing on this gemara. It’s a good question, then, why chushuve people have brought up the concept over the years. Is there a gemara somewhere else that shlugs this up?
The Eidah HeChareidis posken’s that they’re safek Jews, so you have no heter for your selling chometz to them stance.
I admit, I can’t back up what I’m saying any more than YO could when he referenced Rov Ovadia Yosef. <strong>(Modified)</strong>
Millhouse: if you did 23 and Me or some such thing and it didn’t come back Jewish, you would go ahead and eat pork? I don’t care how much sense it makes in your head, we don’t posken by genetic testing.
You guys seem to be assuming that because the stance is more PC, it must be more meikel. The psak that they’re safek Jews is a chashash, not a kulah. Presumably they cannot marry kohanim or mamzerim after geirus. Even if the odds of them being Jewish is 1 in a hundred, it’s worth taking the precaution.
She could use a different computer to have a different IP I would assume. I highly suspect that YO is RBG. He/She defends his/her trolling in a very similar way.
“But I do believe that with all the pogroms against Ashkenazie Jews , there is a theory that their fathers are Ukrainians, hence Uman.”
This sentence makes no sense at all. Was there a typo somewhere, or is it just really under-explained?There were pogroms in Uman, but I don’t see any connections between that and having Ukrainian ancestors. Wouldn’t that make you think it’s less likely to have had intermingling?
Lol. I made the mistake of taking a troll seriously.
Just in hopes that this actually upsets you: I’m just going to go ahead and assume Rav Ovadia never actually said any of the things you’re claiming here.
How did he figure they’re Zera Yisrael? You have the source?
They had no rabbinic sforim and their Bible included certain books found in the Christian Bible. To say that they’re vadai Jews would be a really big chiddush. Pulling the race card does not help an argument in halachah.
“Do you even read what you write?”
Not usually. It’s free form. When I’m at my best, I have no idea what I’m saying, and it riles everyone up who needs to be riled, and I just go from there. Adar was peak Neville.Wait, so you see eye to eye with me on this topic? You and me are actually similar in a lot of areas, so I don’t want to expound a thread over nothing.
Zeta Yisroel? You mean Zera Yisroel?
Are you referring to Ethiopians or Ashkenazim? Because I’m pretty sure that 99% of what people on the internet claim HaRav Ovadia Yosef said about Ashkenazim was never said at all.
“Neville- your comments aren’t even legitimate enough to qualify as a troll post.”
There are people in the scientific community who agree that ADD is not a true disorder. Are you offended that your kid who doesn’t get straight A’s might not have a golden excuse according to some?To say that humans have varying levels of intelligence is illegitimate beyond trolling? Wow. And, I bet you accuse younger people of being overly sensitive. Where do you think they get it? Newsflash: not all humans are born equal. Get over it.
Actually a good point by YO. Yerushalmi is not davka minhag hagra.
I’m sure people who weren’t crazy about lobotomies were also called “behind the times.”
ADHD is fake. Everyone has his/her own attention span. Being less does not mean being disordered. Some people are just inferior. Weak parents refuse to admit this, and that’s why the myth works.
“But you are either 20 years behind the times, or you are describing your sales Amos and thinking it applies everywhere”
OK, I’m beat. I read this several times and cannot figure out what it means. What does sales amos mean?Yeah, it seems like you’re talking about Gra’niks. There are also actual Chassidim who dress that way in Jerusalem, and as far as I know, those Chassidim actually picked it up from them, not the other way around.
“Why are they so religious and strict if they are not chassidic.”
This made me chuckle. You’re not in America anymore 😉 Statistically, Chassidim are more likely than Litvishers to work (by a big margin) in Israel rather than learn full time. Even in the US, there are Livtishe communities that are arguably more radical that average Chassidim.“Female only (or preferred) is codewords for low paying job.”
That may be a correlation, but it’s not a code word. It literally means males need not apply.Bernie and AOC advocate for those who have no interest in working, not those looking for jobs.
I don’t deny that there are kids who are exceptionally hyper or have above average difficulty staying focused. I deny the 20th century concept that a very common and mundane human character trait like that should be labelled as a disorder and medicated. Especially when the medication turns the kids into zombies.
“NC, I don’t understand how you could even consider that this gemara might be agadeta.”
You have yet to tell us what gemara you are referencing. You just keep saying “the gemara,” or “that gemara.”Meanwhile, it seems as though everyone on this thread is viewing what you’re saying as a chiddush. “The gemara says so” is not a proof. Even supplying the daf does little unless you can prove that anyone else learns it the same way as you. From you representation, it sounds like the type of sugya where chazal are discussing different versions of a verbal history (eg. Herod’s upbringing). I don’t see how that would be considered a halachic discussion, but I haven’t seen it inside.
“Ethiopians, the metzius is that there’s no evidence or reason to suppose they have any Jewish origin at all.”
We don’t posken by genotyping. All the reasons you list are why they need geirus. The fact that they claim to be Jewish and have been for as many generations as they can recall is what makes it a safek.I’m not saying anything you’re saying is wrong. But, I don’t think any posek would tell you to take it out to its extreme and sell chometz to an Ethiopian Jew (pre-geirus). Personally, I believe they were Christians who re-invented Judaism based on the “Old Testament” as well, but we’re still choshesh for the slight possibility that this isn’t the case. The genetics brings nothing to the table, halachically-speaking.
You mean real mental health issues like schizophrenia, or the made-up stuff like ADD?
“They used to say that the Gerrer Rebbe had thousands of chassidim who eat on yom kippur.”
Who’s “they?” The elders of Lubavitch who like to spread weird, slanderous stories about other Chassidusim?Also, what does this have to do with anything?
Millhouse:
Do you have a contemporary source, or even later-than-gemara source to back up what you’re saying? I’m not fully convinced it’s not aggadeta just because you keep saying so.Also, while Ethiopians for sure need geirus, from my understanding the standard psak is that they’re safek Jews, not vadai goyim. This is still probably off topic because I’m not sure any posek ever seriously entertained the idea that they were from the 10 tribes.
Inb4 the liberal CR posters defend her.
“The old time chasidim (they have a special name for them) ”
GezheZD:
What’s your point? I don’t see how what you said connects to anything.My apologies. I misread your post as saying “there’s no mekor in the Torah for poskim…” rather than “or poskim.”
This is why my response was about yidden poskening for themselves rather than consulting a posek. It was a post totally based on a misreading, so I retract that.
As to your actual point: if there were no rayes in the Torah to differentiate between the color red and the color green, would you have a problem with doing so? MO people are clearly different than Chareidim; there’s no point is pretending otherwise. They claim they’re better, we claim they’re worse. We live out our eternal struggle on the YWN CR. That’s how the world works.
Is this not just a repeat of the pilpul thread?
I’ve never used a smartphone, but I would still go with the first option just to see what it’s like to hear without ears. Sounds fun.
“Stop trying to start arguments about nothing”
Lol, how on earth do you figure he started that? This all started from your assertion that your anti-yiddishist grandmother’s opinions are binding on all of us for some reason.Avi: I can’t speak from numbers, but it seems like a far higher percentage of the frum, Hungarian community speaks yiddish than the Russian/Lithuanian community. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a majority, especially if you count Chassidim.
Lol these same leftist nuts were probably all bent out of shape about Trump not specifically saying “white supremacists” when he condemned Charlottesville.
If you love Islam so much, just convert and move to Iran. Nobody will miss you.
” Ashkenazim have been around in the tri-state area longer”
Actually no. That’s one point where I actually will bring down a proof from that shul we discussed on the other thread. The Sphardim were in NY first, back when it was New Amsterdam. Admittedly, according to wikipedia (not saying it’s for sure accurate), it was only about 200 Sphardim who would later be greeted by thousands and eventually millions of Ashkenazi immigrants.“they are typically more chilled when it comes to stupid societal rules”
Have you considered that they just have different societal rules? From my understanding, Sphardi households, even the secular ones, are much more traditionalist than Ashkenazim in terms of the role of the woman and such. A lot of the points you bring are hashkafic, not minhagic. Yeshivish Sphardim are just as likely to be cooky about shirt color as anyone else.American Chareidi Sphardim are just about as likely to know Yiddish as Litvishers. Why has nobody brought this up? This isn’t a Ashkenaz/Sphard issue. This is just the usual wacky, Tzionishe suspects making a deal out of nothing.
And, saying something is “Jewish, but not Yiddish” is like saying something is “German, but not Deutsche.”
“No one says it like that.”
Other than all of your ancestors who are turning over in their graves as you bash their mesora.“There is no mekor in the Torah or Poskim for Balabatish, Yeshivish.”
This is just flat out false. Is the climax of this whole shtick going to be that you don’t think we should have poskim and that every yid should just make up his own halachah like Moreinu V’Rabbeinu Avi Weiss?“For all of the differences, it still amazes me how much we are the same”
Especially in this case, because they’re both Ashkenazim.“and believe me Ashkenazim aren’t jealous of sfardim it actually seems like the opposite based on your threads”
YO is Ashkenaz though. He seems jealous of Sphardim to me.“Not sure who or what that is. I heard from a big Talmid Chochom and Banshak.”
If you hold your statement to be true, and hold that your Rav is universally accepted as a Talmid Chochom, then why not use his name?Either, he is, as we suspect, not really a choshuve Rov. Or, he is, and you’re knowingly misrepresenting his words.
“GHD: How’d they achieve a 50% rate? Is it the women or is it the children that brought it that high?”
Either he misinterpreted the headline as meaning half/half. Or, he purposely is saying nonsense, hence why he prefaced it with “Fake News.”Norfolk is actually extremely crime-ridden. It’s a shame they couldn’t have picked a nicer area for a southern Jewish community in a state with vouchers.
“just recall in your mind the first time you heard Avinu Mal’kenu as Oooviniii Malkiinii etc”
I assume you mean “avini malkeini” as in Chassidishe havara?
Nobody says malkini.
Either way, nothing you said is anything close to Litvishe havara.“There are always people who see the bad even in a great situation.”
What’s the great situation? The pride parade specifically, or just the general warm vibe of living in an anti-religious state which does not guarantee basic liberties like freedom or speech and/or fair trial?“so it need not be all rosy to appreciate that we have our own self determination.”
A state run by atheists and arabs with a ~5-10% representation for frum yidden is not a Jewish state. The Torah has no interest in chilonim having “self-determination.”“We don’t really know, it’s all conjecture, but I would bet that at least 1% of Ashkenzi WOMEN wear tefflin and 0% Separadic Women.”
We both posken it shouldn’t be done. Is your point that you think feminism is a little more likely in the Ashkenazi world because of western influence?
By the way, I think this was just a posting mistake, but you posted a comment saying fewer than 1% of women, immediately followed by one saying “at least” 1%.Orthodoxy accounts for about 10% of the American Jewish population. Taking out women and children that would still probably leave you with 4-5% for sure wrapping tefillin. Add to that that there are actually some Conservative Jews who do, specifically Rabbis. It’s slightly possible that it’s over 5%.
Avi:
Was that really necessary? This isn’t even an argument thread, just advice.“You probably know the famous Halacha where the Sefardim hold like the Rema whereas the Ashkenazim hold like the Mechaber.”
Getting drunk on Purim?You mean makpid on differentiating as opposed to pronouncing every sheva as a sheva na?