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“What does Rashi say about giving someone a kosher restaurant gift card for Channukah?”
We taught LB how to troll… Feels kind of wrong…
I think it’s purposely misleading to say you believe the “minhag” of MO can only go back as far as YU. I get what you’re saying, Joseph, but the point is obviously that people within the MO are keeping some form of minhagim (Ashkenaz or Sphard); they aren’t all keeping one homogeneous “minhag MO” like Chassidish groups do.
If the sole basis of your earlier posts was that it’s wrong to go against the Minhagim of your father, then an Ashkenaz would be better off keeping minhag Ashkenaz and nusach at an MO shul rather than dropping his father’s minhagim all together in favor of Minhag Belz or some such thing.
ZD, I think your summation is very accurate. I don’t see how they could ever get good hard numbers on the rates of MO’s freing out since many leave to become Chareidi or move to Israel.
ZD: I agree that Chassidus is not for everyone. I hope you also realize that the MO is also not for everyone. For some, too much structure is bad, for others, too little is bad. I think what people are pointing out is that statistically, the lesser structure option (MO) is more likely to lead to freing out.
Obviously in practice it has to go person to person. If this were just a matter of “not deviating from your father’s derech,” then that would mean it’s also a bad thing for a MO person to become Chareidi, which I doubt those posters believe.
youdontsay: Why is that unfortunate? Would you rather live in a world where we can chose a “forgotten gaon of his time” over the Mishnah Berurah? No matter, you guys have shown that the shittah exists, so I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m still not convinced that it’s mainstream perse to hold the MB didn’t have all the information and made mistakes, and in your last comment you seem to also suggest that it is “unfortunately” not mainstream.
I’m not going any further with the baal gaavah argument. Clearly nobody in the real world holds that holding by Rabbeinu Tam’s tzeis or 16 amos reshus harabim is gaavah with the exception of a few CR posters.
Gaon, I didn’t say Rabbeinu Tam tefillin is the only case, that just an example of where it’s spelled out. The point is, if there is a concern of being machmir leading to gaavah, it will be spelled out explicitly, which it is not in the case of eruvim. Why WOULD you apply it to a case where it does not say so explicitly?
youdontsay: Is what you’re saying actually mainstream? That the Mishnah Berurah was wrong about how most rishonim held and that were he alive today he would correct the “mistake”? Do you have a source that says this?
“Agreed, however, that will be true if that individual is Machmir on each and every Halcha were it is states “Baal Nefesh” should be Yotza all.”
Ummm no. Nobody has ever held that way until you just now. You’re implying that we should just follow the letter of a law, and if somebody wants to take on one chumrah as a nice thing, they have to take on every chumrah that exists? That’s absurd. There are some select things like Rabbeinu Tam’s tefillin where you aren’t supposed to take it on unless you’re known for being machmir elsewhere for risk of looking like a baal gaavah. The same caution does not exist if someone wants to start keeping Rabbeinu Tam’s tzeis. The point being, the baal gaavah concern (which is the only thing I can assume you were going for) is not universal across all things. I’ve never heard it applied to eruvim.
Anyway, we digress. Maskil, if you have the teshuva handy and know the answer as to why he didn’t want an eruv in Lakewood, why don’t you just sum it up so that you can stop us from hitting 100 posts by people theorizing who (obviously) don’t have ready access to the teshuvah. Or is it that you don’t know the answer or have the sefer and your post essentially just comes down to “the answer is out there. I don’t know what it is either, but I’m going to criticize the intelligence of everyone else for not knowing.”
Joseph, he was talking about holding by 16 amos l’chumrah. Some men might have the stringency to not use the eruv, while their wives do use it.
youdontsay: I don’t think the Mishnah Berurah is contradicted at all. He allowed the 600K shittah, and just said it’s a nice thing to hold by the stricter one. I don’t think anyone here has denied that if an individual wants to hold by the machmir shittah, it’s a good thing. Enforcing it on an entire town is a completely different story.
“I really dont get how people here cant tell apart an ashkenaz or sephardi based on looks I mean its usually pretty obvious. Not saying anyone is better than the other we jut have different features.”
The reason you don’t get it is because you’ve clearly only been exposed to a certain subset of the Sphardi world that is very distinguishable and has dark skin, which, by the way, are probably technically Mizrachi/Bucharian and it’s a misnomer to call them Sphardi. So, both sources and corpses indicate that your darkness theory is false, but you cling to it. Your sole evidence is “the middle east is hot.” You realize there are other hot areas with white people, right?
And, really? Because it sure seems like you’re arguing one group is better than the other:
“Why is it also that reform and intermarriage come mostly from ashkenaz. Why is there an inclination to that? It’s embarrassing.”
“Are sephardim stronger in Yiddishkeit naturally? Even the “less frum” who are “traditional”.
We basically invented sheitels as well which even back in Europe many gedoilim we’re opposed to. Sephardim always wore a head covering and mostly till this day unless they copy ashkenaz traditions.”Wait oshriv, for the purposes of this thread, are you considering Carlebach MO (as he probably self-identified) or as Hareidi? Or is this just such an extreme digression that it has nothing at all to do with the thread?
Litvish, the premise you’re basing all of this on is that the Jews should naturally have dark skin. Like I said before, this is baseless. The reason the middle east has dark skin now is because one region mixed with all the others after Islam and dark skin tends to be a more dominant gene.
Multiple posters have pointed out to you that certain groups of Sphardim are not particularly distinguishable from Ashkenazim. You seem to be zeroing in on a Teimani/Mizrachi stereotype to define all Sphardim. Sphardim from Morocco, Egypt, Rhodes, and Turkey are not brown skinned (obviously some might be).
Gaza is in E”Y; it doesn’t just have the components of the topic, it’s 100% on topic. The theory that Hashem would treat the Medina boarders differently than the halachic boarders is textbook religious Zionism, so it’s shouldn’t be shocking that I made that connection in my first post.
You can word my view of the statistics like that if you want, but do you deny their accuracy? Are you really surprised that there are yidden who view reality as it is on this subject, or just surprised that I publicly said it? I find that it is, as a poster said earlier, getting to the point where if you state the simple reality when it comes to eretz Yisroel, the Zionists treat you like a koifer. To be a real frum yid, in their eyes, you have to pretend Israel is safer, which it’s not as we’ve demonstrated, pretend that the quality of life is the same or higher, which it’s not.
Joseph, yet clearly, in practice, women do leave the houses all the time in frum communities, so it’s hard for me to see how we officially hold by it as you’re presenting it.
Aren’t there embassies in NYC? Does anyone claim that those countries are “denying” that Washington DC is the capital of the US?
Seems like a waste of money to me. I get that people want to do it as kind of a dig at the Palestinians, which I have no problem with, but is it really worth it?
The study if Mummies has shows that Arab-like physical features were not always standard across those regions. There’s good reason to believe that the current trend is the result of the Arabs spreading out to all of those countries with the invention of Islam. There are Sphardim who were in the middle east for centuries, and still have pale skin and non-dark hair.
Syag, I’m not taking hashgachah out of the picture entirely. What you seem to be arguing is not about Hashem protecting the Jews, it’s that Hashem protects Jews in Eretz Israel more so than b’chutz. Why would it be unfair to ask why that only applies to the medina’s boarders and not the halachic boarders?
If you’re angle is that you wake up on this day, December 5th 2017, and think that from here on out, Israel will be safer than the US because that makes all the sense in the world going by the Torah (which I don’t deny), then OK; I envy that amount of emunah. But, sadly, every day from 1948 until today has not gone your way. What we’re clearly arguing is that, in galus, you’re no more protected in Eretz Yisroel than anywhere else. Simple logic favors our side, the Torah might favor your side (I wouldn’t mind sources, but I’m taking your word for it for now). It seems we’re at an impasse.
“When people compare apples and oranges, pretending they are also talking about smoothies is just being joseph.”
I know that’s supposed to be an insult, but I’ll take it. I’ve admired Joseph for years as the YWN CR legend.P.S. Sorry if I come off too strongly in my previous post. I do respect your opinion on this, I really do; it’s just too much of a stretch for me to accept.
And Gadol, I get what you’re trying to say, but you just directly called the Machaber and Rambam narishkeit and compared them to Christianity and Islam. You might want to rethink the emotional responses before you click submit.
I’m still hung up on the restaurants thing. Did the anti-restaurant stuff ever catch on? I’ve never heard of a frum yid saying it’s against his minhag to never eat at a restaurant. Are there any hechshers that refuse to certify restaurants for that reason?
Gaon: There’s a shittah that the 600K only applies to cities and intra-city roads require fewer than 600K. I don’t know if this has anything to do with Rt. 9. I have absolutely no idea what the “Route 9” situation is that people are talking about, so I’m just guessing. For the other eruv communities you mentioned, could it be that, based on trends in American Jewry, it was decided that Lakewood wouldn’t handle an eruv as well as those communities you mentioned?
Joseph: The Machaber and Rambam saying so doesn’t mean we pasken that way, and it certainly doesn’t mean that it should be used as a basis against eruvs. We don’t know that that’s actually the issue with a Lakewood eruv; that post earlier seemed like anecdotal evidence. You’ll have to do better than that to convince me, but it’s not a bad argument inherently.
Gadol: I’m not trolling, but I will apologize in advance if what I’m about to say offends you. Based on CR history, you clearly proudly align yourself with the very modern side of the Orthodox hemisphere (which I’m not condemning here). Lakewood clearly represents a farther right-wing community. Could it be that they want to avoid the eruv for the very reason that they want to keep out the more modern side that tends to be more dependent on eruvs to preserve what they perceive to be the integrity of Lakewood?
There’s a Wikipedia article for “Jewish law in the polar regions.”
Syag, that wouldn’t be devil’s advocate, that’s just the rational next argument to your point. I’m sorry to say it, but you aren’t arguing rationally. If a Jew lived in Gaza (within the halachic boundries of Eretz Yisroel), he/she is not safer than living in Lakewood. The point that Hashem makes you safer in Eretz Yisroel just defies simple logic since we observe that it’s not true. It would be nice if it were true; it would be nice if it we could learn Torah all day and live nicely without working. I don’t agree with being so dependent on miracles that you lose all sense of reason. Now, if you’re going to talk about “WHY wouldn’t Hashem make us safer for living in Eretz Yisroel,” I don’t want to go there. It doesn’t make sense to me either, but it’s the reality. Stop pretending it’s not. It’s like pretending a deceased Rabbi who you really respected is still alive because you just can’t accept the reality that he’s not…
“If not, then each and every road (wider than 16 Amos), even your quiet upstate road has a status of Reshus haRabim.”
Yes, your point? From my understanding the Mishnah Berurah says a Baal Nefesh holds by this definition. The Kitzur definitely advocates for the stricter definition in line with the Rif, Rambam, and Rashba. I never really understood the 600K shittah (even though I rely on it). It’s always stated in books like, “in our times there are no reshus harabim” (books written before big cities like NYC). That just doesn’t really add up since it implies that in the past they DID have to worry about it, when back then it would have required more than half of klal Yisroel to casually walk down the road.
I don’t see what the Lakewood issue is. How would an eruv cause “mingling in the streets?” Without an eruv, people will mingle in the streets with empty pockets; with an eruv, they’ll mingle while carrying stuff. What difference would it make? Then again, I don’t even understand the problem with restaurants, so I really just don’t know anything.
That’s an interesting approach to counting the exiles to make sure America ends up #10. Separating out Spain, France, and Germany, but packaging North Africa as 1 and Poland/Lithuania as another 1. Not mentioning Persia, Turkey, or Greece at all. If the quote is really by the man to whom you attributed it, then I’ll just leave it at that… Interesting approach.
Thank you, Joseph. I thought that answer went without saying, but I guess nothing does.
Avi, I’m not anti-Israel or anti-aliyah. What I’m against is when the pro-aliyah folks are faced with the difficulty of convincing people to move to a dangerous country, they rely on misleading instead of other methods of proving it’s worth it. The US is much bigger geographically, and the violent crime rates are not evenly distributed. If somebody said, “I don’t want to live in Israel because it’s dangerous, so I will live instead in a place like Crown Heights, Washington Heights, or downtown Baltimore,” then you would have a good case.
Winnie: Are you saying that those miraculous situations couldn’t happen if missiles hit Jewish areas of the US? Is the basis of the miracle argument that Hashem only protects Israeli Jews?
Why would anyone be against sit down restaurants? That’s a bigger mystery to me.
That would buy them maybe a generation or two before the kids are back to being frei, so yes, it’s better than being frei.
I don’t believe a Hitler magnitude situation is the only thing that would render us unsafe. It was Avi that kept making the Holocaust references earlier. What I was responding to is the idea that “Jews felt safe in Germany then the Holocaust happened. Jews feel safe in America now, therefore it’s going to happen again.” This is a completely absurd concept.
The views I’m bringing are only numbers based; that’s how I operate. Statistically, you are more likely to be the victim of Anti-Semitic violence in Israel. The only arguments to the contrary have been conspiracy theories. Like I said earlier, the rate of incidents in the US would have to rise by a lot to make it less safe than Israel. The rates of assault tied to anti-Semitism have actually gone down in the US if you look at the ADL publications. They tout that the rates of incidents have gone up overall, but a closer look shows that that’s only because they are now including internet harassments as anti-Semitic incidents, the overwhelming majority of which are anonymous “trolling,” which is wrong, but highly unlikely to lead to anything dangerous.
Syag: I guess I didn’t/still don’t understand your first post. You said you were speechless so I assumed I said something controversial. Also, I still don’t see the issue with what spreadthetruth is saying. The anti-Semitic left is a loud and prominent minority in the US. Meanwhile, polls show that almost all “Palestinians” support terrorism against Jews. I don’t think anyone is denying that Antisemitism exists in America; there’s just a split on whether or not we’re willing to accept the cold, hard reality that it’s worse in Israel.
Let me put it like this: A frum Jew needs a place to live and he asks two friends “I’m mainly concerned about my kids’ safety. Which area has lower violent crime, Brooklyn NY or rural Iowa?” Friend A says, “rural Iowa.” Friend B says, “your kids are less likely to assimilate in Brooklyn, and who knows, maybe an evil dictator will take over Iowa.”
Friend B might be steering him in the right direction, but it’s not the answer to that specific question. I don’t deny that Israel is the future, and that most of the argument in favor are true; I’m not on the far anti-Zionist right. However, I’m not going to pretend that it’s safer than the US, because it’s just not. The pro-aliyah faction is using deceit by playing up a warzone as a “safe haven.”
“if the Arab-Israeli conflict were settled, migration back to Islamic countries becomes possible”
Please tell me you’re kidding.
Avi, yes because American college students holding up signs that say “Free Palestine” is the same thing as Arabs murdering you with an ax; clearly I don’t have the facts straight.
Nobody is fighting you on assimilation. Probably for 2 reasons: 1) you’re correct. Assimilation rates being far higher in the US is a fact (kind of like Israel being more dangerous is a fact) 2) that’s not at all what this thread is about and nobody else is feeling like indulging the derailment.
Syag: Which part is controversial? There is more terrorism in Israel than the US; since when did facts become controversial opinions?
I can’t believe we went straight from Chabad to this. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.
“the Zohar states that each 1,000 years of Creation parallel the first six days. That means that 5708 was the last time for burning chametz on erev Shabbat. ”
Anyone else having trouble seeing how he got from point A to point B here?
Thank you, Spreadthetruth, for having a rare but sane opinion on this.
Litvhisher and others: he’s not saying anything about “evil zionists” or philosophical anything. He’s just pointing out the REALITY that Israel is currently more dangerous than the US. It’s just a simple fact. The idea that Israel exists for US Jews to escape to is a fallacy since, even if Americans started attacking the Jews, they would have to get really bad before they’re as dangerous as the Arabs.
All Spreadthetruth was saying was that one place is more dangerous than another, not making a political statement at all; allow me to do that: if you honestly believe that Hitler 2.0 taking over America and orchestrating Holocaust 2.0 is a more likely scenario than the Arab nations bombing Israel, then you have drunk the Zionist Cool Aid by the bowl-full and you are a crazy person.
Congratulations, ChabadShlucha, I believe this is officially the longest thread bearing a poster’s username in the title in the history of the CR. If this lasts a few more days, it could even become the longest thread in general.
Am I the only one who thinks that highly urban areas like Baltimore can’t be “the next Lakewood?”
“I’ve heard of tzaddikim who davened Shachris even after Chatzos.”
I’ve heard of people who redefine the work “tzadik” to include people to violate the halachah.
5ish: You realize that the poskim specifically addressed the issue of having to chose between kavanah and zman hatefillah. The halachah according to everyone was always that zman hatefillah takes precedence, until the Chassidim chose to ignore this.
For a lot of the year, zman hatefilla is as late at 11 o’clock. If you can’t focus by that point in the day, you need to see a doctor.
““So now davening b’zman, not eating before davening, sleeping in the succah etc. are mistaken behaviors which chassidus came to fix???”
That is not what I said.”
How not? Seems to be exactly what you said. He even copied and pasted.
If the point of Chassidus were to destroy minhag Ashkenaz and eventually minhag Sphard and convert everyone to invented, Chassidic minhagim, then yes I would have no problem saying that I am unequivocally opposed to Chassidus. BUT, today, Chabad is the only group that behaves that way.
“which finally gave me the 100% clarity on why the shluchim are sent to places where there are no yidden familiar with Torah.”
Bingo. I remember when I had that realization. The sad irony is that they preach acceptance and anti-isolationism when they are [very intentionally] sheltering the unlearned masses from learning any non-Chabad (mainstream) shittahs. And, if someone by chance learns one, they have to spin it around eg. “we daven with more kavanah than everyone else because we eat first and miss zman hatefilla”, “we’re careful to not sleep in the Sukkah”, etc. We can laugh it off, but, unfortunately, people in remote areas end up really believing these things.
Yeah, Lubavitchers are more likely to be OK with a non-Chabad mikveh than the other way around, so it’s not really a good path to go down to try to say they’re judgmental in this area. The point was brought up on another thread, but the context was different.
Bratzki, the “finding 10 examples of the opposite” is flawed logic that we’ve discussed on other threads. Stuff like “sure we insulted another big rabbi, but we fed 10 fried out Yidden this weekend, so it evens out.” That isn’t how it works.
Does the medina give money to overtly Meshichist Chabad schools? 😉
If so, is it really right for the rest of us to also take money from the state, as it’s sort of like legitimizing Chabad meshichism?
[Disclaimer: years from now, this post will look really silly out of context]
770 Chabad just proved that he truly is new to the CR. In truth, I actually think this debate has blown up to to being way bigger than the Zionism wars ever were; especially if you include this thread and the original one that was closed.
Can any of the overtly meshichist posters who say to Rebbe claimed to be Moshiach provide a source of him explicitly saying that? Trust me, us evil, antagonistic misnagdim would really like to see it.
“Because he didn’t take personal responsibility for every Jew, just got his chareidi community.”
We have clearly demonstrated that Chabad’s policy is to overtly try to get people to change their minhagim; is that what defines “taking personal responsibility for every Jew” in your mind?
Yes.
The recent CR War of 2017 has convinced me that Chabad Meshichism is more of an issue that I previously thought. It used to be the last of my concerns with Chabad.
More commonly the CR has strengthened opinions I already kind of had, but wasn’t sure if my experiences were the same as others.
Also, just got around do reading the Shabbos candles debate. To the Chabad camp:
Why do you care whether or not the Holocaust theory is true? Why do you care about the merits of one minhag vs the other? You honestly don’t see the problem with chabad.org (which we all know is “toned-down” Lubavitch) posting a teary-eyed success story about how they got non Lubavitchers to betray their minhag and directly insult their elderly grandmother? Seriously, do you really not see the problem, or are you just playing dumb to skirt the issue?
It’s not that uncommon to refer to Reb Moshe more casually than most rabbis. Let’s not grasp for straws when there are plenty of real points to bring up.
Syag: When you said, “that advice really does not apply to you, SH, as you have been respectful,” can I assume you missed the point where he said to DY:
“Your are truly a fine specimen of a misnaged”Let me know when you find the answer to why we don’t call Brooklyn “Kings.”
Sechel:
If I said telling an Ashkenazi he can eat kitniyos on Pesach is a “serious issur,” would you accuse me of “being disrespectful to Sphardi poskim?” I didn’t think so. I never said anything against the Baal HaTanya, but trying to get people to abandon their minhagim and adopt ways that can be considered assur by their actual minhagim is a big problem; you keep screaming discrimination to avoid dealing with that reality.The tefillin size thing I mentioned is brought down in Mishnah Berura (authored by the Chofetz Chaim who, in your mind, loved the Baal HaTanya so much he thought we should all ignore our minhagim and become Lubavitchers). However, I believe it’s straight from the Machaber. I think Chabad is alone with the jumbo tefillin shitta. I did actually learn Shulchan Aruch HaRav on hilchos tefillin (I remember specifically because he writes a good argument, ironically, on why we SHOULD wrap during chol hamoed). I do not recall any mention of the giant dimensions, but I will look.
Sechel:
It would make more halachic sense to permit clapping for applause, but not for music. However, you are correct; Chabad is not alone in that one. My point was more that Chabad encourages people to deviate from their minhagei avos even where serious issurim are involved.We are supposed to be able to fit 2 batim in the space between the hairline and baby-bump. This is objectively impossible with Chabad tefillin.
I could see why you would want to brush off the Benedictine controversy:
This is not just a kashrus disagreement. Lubavitchers consume it because the Rebbe drank it. Most of us prefer our mashgichim to be alive. It is very likely that the willingness to hold by a dead mashgiach goes hand and hand with the belief in a dead moshiach.