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Wow. Daas Yochid is getting into the troll game? Moshiach must be here.
Thank you CS for the source. That refutes my claim lo tisgodedu definitely doesn’t apply here; it also refutes my claim that Lubavitchers tend to ignore minhag hamakom. I guess I had drawn incorrect conclusions from Lubavitchers I had met who weren’t necessarily acting correctly.
I concede that we can’t say Joseph’s argument is baseless anymore. However, I will still say that we (Litvaks) clearly don’t posken this way in regards to Brooklyn. Kiryas Yoel could very well be different; I’m not sure.
“Suppose a family conducts a memorial service for their child who was a victim of a mass shooting. Does the family deserve to be criticized for focusing only on their own child? Does that mean they’re being selfish and bigoted for not caring about the other victims?”
That’s a good mushul and I think we all agree, but that doesn’t mean goyish readers are going to see it that way.
Gaon: Rav Eliyashiv poskened that if an American Ashkenaz who wraps tefillin on Chol Hamoed moves to Jerusalem, he must stop doing so. So, I don’t this it’s as pashut as saying Jerusalem has no sway on minhag hamakom.
“Is covering your head halacha or midas chasidus?”
Covering your head b’klal? That’s for sure a halachah. The Taz says it’s even a d’oraisa because of Chukas Hagoyim (goyim consider an uncovered head to be a sign of respect).
“Mogen Avraham says that one should wear a hat for the bracha of Li’hisatef Batzitzis. What can we infer from this for other brachos and davening?”
I would say very little. The hats we wear today would be impossible to wear while doing atifa.
“Covering your head while davenin with your tallis is fine as long as that is minhag in that shul or beis medrash. However, to do so in a shul where no one else engages should be done with care so you don’t c’v send the signal that you consider yourself a much more ehrliche yid than others in the tzibur.”
This is true if it’s truly the minhag of that shul that only the Shliach Tzibbur covers his head with a tallis. If you’re talking about going to an MO shul where people happen to not cover there heads with the tallis just because they’re more enlightened than us, then no. There’s a difference between minhagim and societal trends.
https://www.ezras-nashim.org/endorsements/
Mods, it’s up to you whether or not you want to let it through. I don’t know of any other way to give a source to refute him speaking on behalf of the Gedolei Hador.
“There’s still the issue of the tznius woman being an eyesore”
That’s not a halachic reason, and since you didn’t provide any source I’ll assume it’s because you can’t because there are none. Unlike the more left-wing posters, I would be willing to hear you out were you to provide any real evidence. Also, unlike them, I am not belittling this minhag or claiming you’re making it up. However, claiming that lo tisgodedu applies here seems to be made up by you.
On a side note, Ezras Nashim for sure operates in Williamsberg. I thought they even originated there. Their Satmar volunteers do not drive.
“Riding in a car is biblical according Chasam Sofer for violation of resting.”
OK, if you can show me a psak from the Chasam Sofer about cars I’ll give you all my money and be your slave forever.
Joking aside, turning on most electrical appliances is probably a d’oraisa on Shabbos. I don’t think that’s a key point here. It sounds like the only reason timed lights were given a heter was because of the troubling, preexisting custom. I suppose you could argue that people using Shabbos clocks for other stuff has become a new troubling trend. Just to be clear though, I am not saying that.
I thought this was going to refer to the fact that YWN reposts a lot of AP articles (that would actually be worth discussing). This is just silly.
Remember the fuss in the CR a month back when a Chabad site was accused of “only caring about HaRav Shteinman’s health because it was a Chabad doctor treating him?” If we make those kind of accusations against each other, do you really think the goyim aren’t going to do so to us? Especially when a headline is posted that makes it so easy for them.
“An interesting question is what to do if a Chabad woman goes to a place where they pasken that wigs are halachicly prohibited (and no woman there wears only a wig in public.)”
There are actually such places, and this would be an interesting question if it weren’t about Chabad. It is very well known that Lubavitchers are never choshesh for other’s minhagim no matter the circumstance. I do not know their heter, but it’s clearly their established way.
The percentages really don’t matter. As in the example I gave earlier, a Sphard could be in a Litvish shul of 1,000 and be the only bocher in a tallis and it’s not lo tisgodedu.
Assuring women driving is a real shittah and shouldn’t be taken lightly, but the reality is that these neighborhoods are also aware of those who mattir. You’d really have to ask a posek if it would be lo tisgogdedu. Given that HaRav Kanievsky and HaRav Shteinman both were OK with Ezras Nashim, I doubt we posken as Joseph is saying (since they obviously knew the ambulances would be driving through Williamsberg).
Joseph, if you could provide an opinion that driving through these neighborhoods as a female is assur, then I’ll accept it. The simple argument that rov yidden in those neighborhoods hold a certain way does not suffice.
“Hm…icould there be a mcholokes on this?”
I believe what your teacher meant is that you don’t fully convert to the minhag hamakom when you’re just visiting. Eg, you still wrap tefilling privately when visiting. However, were I to permanently move to Jerusalem, I might have to stop wrapping altogether on account of minhag hamakom.
The case of not publicly going against minhag hamakom is not actually about changing your minhag to that of the place. Rather, it’s that you don’t want to be over on the issur of lo tisgodedu. These are technically separate, albeit related, concepts.
There is a shitta that women shouldn’t drive, and it has its basis in halachah. It is not my minhag and I do not have any idea whether or not it’s the majority opinion in Boro Park. However, it is my minhag to not go around calling other people’s minhagim “shtus,” and “made-up.”
“Afaik there was only one gadol who came out against this chiddush as the opposite of Avodas Hashem cvs, while the others did not,”
I’m not sure which dispute you are referring to. If you a referring to the Gra coming out against the Baal Hatanya, you’re wrong. As Sechel pointed out, he had many Chassidish opponents as well.
If you are referring to the modern status of Chabad, then you’re even more wrong. You think only 1 gadol was opposed to Chabad Meshichism? To whom to you refer? Because it could truly be anyone because EVERYONE opposed Meshichism.
Putting an arm over your head, putting a baseball cap or winter hat over your yarmulke, etc. are all taking away your respectability. I’m sorry Joseph, but you are not right on this one. Fulfilling the inyan of the double covering at the expense of not looking presentable for davening is not how we pasken. I’m not sure the Chofetz Chaim comments on it since people might not have done such silly things in his day. However, he does clearly hold that a kabbalistic inyan never overrides a pre-existing minhag.
“As I mentioned before that oneg shabbos might be considered a mitzva.”
OK, now you’re just being silly. The rationale of using “oneg Shabbos” to get around issurim has been employed by the Reforms for decades; it’s not going to hold any water here. I’m not accusing you of being like them, but surely you should be able to see the slippery slope you’re going down. If you say oneg shabbos mattirs a Shabbos goy, then why not have him turn on your TV? Drive you 45 minutes to shul?
We hear you saying that this issur doesn’t apply to AC, what we aren’t hearing is your reasoning. You can keep repeating over and over that “circumstances change;” nobody here is disputing that. The question is WHAT circumstance changed in regard to AC units since the psak of Reb Moshe was given? Oneg Shabbos existed back then too, so you can’t use that.
“In public someone from Eretz Yisroel visiting chutz la’aretz cannot violate the second day of Yom Tov.”
Nor in private can he violate Yom Tov. He might daven weekday nusach and wrap tefillin in private, but he can’t do melachah even in private.
Certain things are subject to minhag hamakom and others aren’t. A sphard can go to an Ashkenaz shul where the minhag is to wait until marriage for tallis, and he can still wear a tallis in that shul, because everyone knows there’s a diversity of minhagim when it comes to when to wear a tallis.
You have to ask a rav which cases have to defer to minhag hamakom. The assertion that “visiting” makes it not apply is totally incorrect. If I wrap tefillin on chol hamoed and then visit a Sphardic community, I have to do so in private. I can’t walk into shul with tefillin and say, “I’m just visiting!”
I think Joseph might actually be right that with tznius minhagim, you have to immediately defer to minhag hamakom in public, but you’d really have to ask a rav. With the tichel example Shopping gave: Lubavitchers actually hold by davka sheitels in public, but since this seems to be a daas yachid of Chabad, I don’t think anyone would tell a tichel person to switch to a sheitel in Crown Heights. The different minhagim on leggings would be a better question I think.
“If someone didn’t have a hat for davening, would the Mishna Berura hold that he should put on another yarmulke? Or cover his head with his shirt sleeve?”
Most people who are worried about what the Mishna Berura has to say wear double layered yarmulkes, so actually no. Worrying about looking respectable during davening is a halachah. Having 2 layers is a minhag; so I would imagine nobody would actually recommend having your arm over your head for the whole shmoneh esreh.
DY, could you explain how it was ever mutar to ask a goy to turn on lights? The old filament bulbs were for sure bishul; how could it be OK to directly ask a goy to do melachah d’oraisa for you?
Or is it that the psak was saying the masses were doing an issur by using a Shabbos goy here so they’re better off with a heter to use timers to keep this from going on?
“What about the practice of men using mirrors for cosmetic purposes? Is that a reasonable analogy?”
I understand what you’re getting at, but no. The issur of using a mirror was specifically based on the societal norm that only women used mirrors. Since that societal norm changed, the issur went away. Air conditioners are a problem because they make loud noise, that hasn’t changed. If someone were to make a silent AC, I would imagine it would warrant a new psak.
“Eh. Based on the context, I would say that’s a weak proof.”
OK, you can do that based on the context, but based on the fact that that’s how every major Rabbi has learned it, I would say it’s a pretty good proof.
There is a kabbalistic inyan to have 2 head coverings. Not a halachah, but no reason not to fulfill it since it doesn’t interfere with any halachah. I do not know the source for this, and I will not be looking for it because this was NOT supposed to be a halachah thread!
Friends, please stop indulging takahmamash. This is a style thread, not a halachah thread.
I’m in favor of meduim brim. The super wide, 90’s hats look kind of ridiculous to me. Then the hats with too small of brims are too hipster-looking.
LC, small brim hats are cheaper and more available today, so that dynamic is not reversed. As CTRebbe said, the hat makers have pretty much dictated that if you need a new hat today, it WILL be small brim.
“If anything, we (meaning Litvish yeshiva trained people) are more culturally similar to Chabad than to other chassidim.”
If by “culturally” you refer strictly to dress code and nothing else, then yes.
I would personally assert that the difference in learning regiment and the very clear alcohol culture of Chabad are cultural differences where we would be more similar to the Chassidim than to Chabad.
He could have worded it more respectfully, but Phil actually has a point about the long coats.
There are certain things gedolim do, in particular in how they dress, that we specifically avoid emulating. The Rosh Yeshiva wearing a long coat doesn’t mean all the bocherim should, in fact it means the opposite. Obviously, it would be absurd to suggest that white shirts fall into this category. But, I’m assuming Phil’s point was “we don’t always strive to dress exactly like the gedolim; sometimes we even avoid it.” He’s right.
“So then why are you so outraged over a yeshiva wanting it’s students to wear white shirts if it is not a halachic issue?”
You clearly have me confused with another poster. I go to a Yeshiva with colored shirts. I’m not sure where you thought I expressed outrage.
I’m not going to comment like shopping that I agree with Wolf, even though I do on the surface, because this is just another derailing of the point in an attempt to accuse us to “judging people negatively” for their colored shirts. When I see a guy in a shtreimel and say he’s Chassidish, I’m not “judging him negatively.” Likewise, when I see a colored shirt family walking down the road, you can tell they’re more “balhabatish” or modern. It’s not a negative thing to accept reality instead of turning the blind eye. As Shopping has pointed out, it’s actually halchically mandated for women to do so.
“Just one example: dancing around drinking vodka singing yechi is chochma bina and daas. Sitting at a tish and listening to the rebbe’s torah is just emotion.”
100% on point. I don’t think he’s being harsh at all. Everyone here is an adult and should know better. That fact that Chabadniks have purposely cut themselves off from learning anything about other Chassidim so that all they have to go by are there own incorrect stereotypes should not allow them to plead ignorance.
“I hate to use this analogy but just wondering if you were offered a job paying $200,000/year and where you were only allowed to wear solid black/blue/grey suits and white shirts, would you turn down the offer?”
No, because it’s not a halachic issue. I could see Chassidim answering differently, and I’m not about to insult them over it.“Sorry mam but rov / majority does not apply to a mihag shtus”
I wonderful example of the tolerance and non-judgmental nature that oozes from the colored shirt community.iac: I didn’t say “leftern” as an insult. If there’s a more fitting term that you’d prefer to use, then I would be happy to do so. The point is, the colored shirts represent a side of the community that isn’t MY community. I’m not about to dress in a way that will cause people to think I’m something that I’m not just because a few forum posters are offended by my outfit choice. If you thought you looked good in a shtreimel, would you wear one even though you aren’t Chassdishe knowing it would make everyone think you are?
“Wearing a white shirt doesn’t make you shallow but judging and stereotyping someone for wearing a colored shirt most certainly does.”
Ah, I see, but it’s perfectly fine to judge and stereotype those who wear white?
Where are you seeing the judging here? You’re talking to a guy who used to live in a place where nobody was white-only, and I didn’t wear only white back then. I moved to a place where wearing colored shirts makes a certain statement, and I chose not to turn the blind eye to this reality. What’s the difficulty here? Do you guys deny that these places exist? Would you like to walk down the road in Lakewood or Boro Park with a kippah and a fire engine red shirt and tell me nobody is going to notice?
“Obviously, there are those who strongly hold that it is irrelevant that today, ”
No there absolutely are NOT. Unless you are talking about the Reform/Conservatives.
There is a heter to eat chalav stam. Or, if you prefer, you could say there’s a chumrah to eat chalav Yisroel (albeit this wording would be inaccurate). Either way, NOBODY says the issue is irrelevant. Keeping chalav Yisroel is halachically preferable according to all, including those who permit chalav stam.
Your language further down is suggesting that you could drink goyishe milk in any country because in your mind the halachah was flawed from the start. I’m sorry, but your knowledge of this is clearly very poor and you should do some research before brazenly making light of something straight from the Mishnah.
“Could you imagine Rav Moshe or Rav Chaim in a blue shirt?”
Sure, because if you google Reb Moshe you can easily see a picture of him in a striped shirt.
@The Mods:
I do think you guys do a great job. However, with all due respect, Sechel HaYashar once called Daas Yochid a “fine specimen of a misnagged” on a different thread, which was let through. Just because he’s on the defensive side here and actually bringing sources, doesn’t mean he’s always that way, so I have to sympathize with LC.
I know LC and I are pretty extreme when it comes to this subject too; moderation isn’t just to protect the victim. The universal truth of any forum is: when you look back on your posts 5 years from now, you’ll wish the mods blocked you MORE, not less.
CS, thanks your replying respectfully.
““So, in what mesorah is this stuff OK? Sphard? Teimani? Ashkenaz?”All the above. Someone mentioned similar stuff by the baba sali, and there were two litvishe sources quoted that area saying the same idea.”
With all due respect, this is just completely false. Minhag Sphard is even stricter on davening late, and I understand they wouldn’t even respond “amein” to a late krias hashatz. The Chofetz Chaim says not eating before Shachris is even more important than davening with a minyan. Maybe, my post was a little out of order. If you thought I was referring to davening at a tzaddik’s grave and the bris picture, then yeah, those aren’t really difficulties for me. I think there are way bigger problems to be concerned with.
If all of your minhagim were sourced in the Shulchan Aruch HaRav, then I think your argument would carry more weight, but that’s not the reality. The S”A HaRav speaks of zman hatefillah (seems to hold like the Magen Avraham, btw), never says it’s OK to eat before davening (to my knowledge), says that you should eat a seudah shlishis, even says you should wrap tefillin on chol hamoed! The point is, very little of modern day Lubavitch goes back to the Alter Rebbe, whom we all respect as a great posek.
By the way, I am aware that when there’s a difference between the Shulchan Aruch HaRav, and the Baal HaTanya’s siddur, Chabad paskens like the siddur. That I would be legitimately interested in talking about (not fighting about), but not on this thread.
It’s getting hard for me to believe this isn’t trolling.
What Shopping and I said is that people who wear colored shirts (in certain communities) are the types who would say, “I think white shirt society is stupid and I want nothing to do with it.” Then, you guys offer a rebuttal by saying basically exactly that verbatim! What would you have us say? Thanks for proving our point?
Shopping and I both expressed that we wish the color didn’t matter, and neither of us have claimed that there’s a “Torah source.”
Look at it like this. Say you live in a city in Turkey where Jews wear kippahs and Muslims wear fez’s. If you wear a fez, even though it’s a legitimate head covering, it will make everyone think your Muslim, which you don’t want. You aren’t shallow for wanting to avoid people thinking you’re something that you aren’t! And, don’t anyone dare bring in chukas hagoyim because you know that’s not the point of the analogy.
Who are the judgmental ones here? You colored shirters are calling us “shallow” and “judgmental” because of our shirt preference. The reality is, that’s always how it goes. The religious left (just like the political left) is just soooo tolerant and accepting of everyone that they have to insult everyone even slightly not like them, and somehow you guys will never see the irony.
” Please understand that just because this type of expression is not familiar to you from your MESORAH it does not mean it is not valid.”
So, in what mesorah is this stuff OK? Sphard? Teimani? Ashkenaz?
Do you get the crux of the argument here? Chabad is an invented mesoret. Lubavitchers all have ancestors that were Ashkenazim or Sphardim, etc. If we accept your principle, what’s to stop me from making up “Minhag Neville” that says it’s OK to worship me as a god? How are you going to argue with me? It’s my minhag! It goes all the way back to the beginning of the Neville movement!
One reason Chabad catches all of this flak vs. other Chassidim is that your chiddushim seem to have no basis in earlier generations (davening late, eating before davening, treating your rabbi as a demi-god, calling all other yidden haters, etc).
Shopping put it beautifully.
It’s not about looking down on people who wear non-white shirts. I will tell you, behind internet anonymity, that I really don’t think shirt color should matter and I wish it didn’t, but the reality is that it does socially. Nobody so far here has asserted that it matters halachically, so stop pretending we are saying that. Where I learn and where I live, some people wear white shirts and some people wear colored. I wear white, not because I think it’s a halachic issue, but because wearing colored would cause people to associate me with the leftern hemisphere of the community.
Now, pro-colored folks, go ahead and attack me for being mean for not wanting to be associated with the religious left, because we all know that’s what this is really about. That, my friends, was exactly Shopping613’s point.
I can’t believe this is still going on.
Does anyone really still believe they don’t understand the questions? Lubavitchers (in particular shluchim) are trained on how to evade questions about Meshichism their whole lives. They probably don’t even realize they’re doing it at this point. Does anyone really believe someone who says the Rebbe is the brain that runs the whole world ISN’T meshichist? They’ve been taught Meshichism is OK and even essential, we’ve been taught it’s kefira. What card are we expecting them to wow us with at this point?
If I had to defend tefillin on Chol Hamoed, and I brought the Rema and Magen Avraham, would that be “circular logic” since those are sources from within my mesores? Of course they’re only going to give us sources from within Chabad! They think what they believe is RIGHT because that’s what their rabbonim tell them. Same reason we believe it’s wrong. There is no end to this thing.
I’m confused, it’s not like they wear davka blue shirts at Chofetz Chaim right? Most of the guys are still wearing white shirts I assume. They just allow other shirt colors?
Even by the pro-white-shirt argument, allowing a diversity in shirt color would just allow you to gauge the seriousness of a given bochur. If you make them wear white shirts, how can you tell who the REAL white shirters are, and who are just doing it for the dress code?
The bris picture is just a distraction.
I have to say, even being on the evil, misnagdish, hater side myself, I don’t see why we say putting pictures in a stroller, Sphardim kissing pictures of the Baba Sali is all fine, but when you put the picture under a pillow it’s full blown avoida zara. It seems like circular logic: “What’s a Chabad minhag that’s A”Z? The pillow picture. Why is it A”Z? Because it’s practiced by a people we suspect of avoida zara.”
For that reason, I don’t agree with using the pillow picture as a source of the problem.
Was the OP meant to be a poem?
The whole world being a body and the Rebbe being the brain just sounds like unambiguous elokism to me. Your putting the Rebbe on a level above where we traditionally put the (not yet here) Moshiach.
I mostly agree with Syag. The only thing I would say is in regards to the comparison about the woman who thinks she should be able to wear loose pants:
When a religious left-wing, bareheaded, pants-wearing, gemarra-learning woman comes over and asks “why do you think it’s not tznius to wear pants?” 99 times out of 100, she isn’t at all interested in your halachic answer. She’s already made it very clear that she hates and denies the halachah, and most likely it is just a warm up to an attack. Throughout the internet, most of the sites dedicated to criticizing or “questioning” Chabad, are not written by learned, inquisitive people. They really are just attackers. It’s possible that it’s conditioned Lubavitchers to getting so defensive so quickly.“That’s like quoting the failed messiah site as proof for something I don’t like in the Chareidi world.”
I thought it would be too, but if you take a look at the site it’s really not anything like failed messiah. Also, scroll to the bottom. They have a disclaimer saying that Lubavitchers will react to it exactly as you just did.Toi, you aren’t going to see me giving you any sources to help the Chabad side because I’m fervently against Chabad Meshichism. There ARE contemporary sources (eg. Rav Shach, Rav Belsky) that one could use against Chabad, but the site you reference leaves them out. They use old sources, and bring them down in the case of Chabad themselves. Why should I care how an anonymous internet website paskens? If they don’t bring down contemporary sources then their halachah section is no better than the Chabadniks here not giving any sources.
We’ll go around for circles forever here. We’ll ask the Chabadniks for sources other than the Rebbe; they will not provide. Why? Because they proudly have a concept of being “bittul to the Rebbe,” meaning they consider it a good thing to learn only the Rebbe’s shittahs. It has always been our way to learn all the shittas, even the ones we by which we don’t hold; that’s how the gemarra was written. How Lubavitchers can claim that it’s a bad thing to learn outside sources is beyond all logic.
OK, Toi, I took the bait and found the website.
Somewhat of an interesting read, and they were certainly more respectful than the Chabad critics from the religious left or non-religious sects. However, their knowledge of specific Chabad texts implies that there are some ex-Lubavitchers involved with the site, and their knowledge of the Orthodox world in general seems more lacking. I suspect it’s a site made by disenchanted Lubavitchers who are now probably MO, and it is not a site that represents mainstream Litvish opinion.
In their “halachah” section, they just quote sources speaking on general concepts (specifically praying with an intermediary) and apply it to Chabad themselves. They quote no contemporary sources who say these things actually are a problem with Chabad.
They seem to have a problem with very mundane, Chareidi practices like having pictures of Rebbeim up, learning from their Rebbe’s works during Shabbos meal, etc. This leads me to believe the authors have no experience with the frum world outside of Chabad and a few things they learned by googling a catchy phrase like “halacha of praying to intermediary.”
Since when are we not allowed to talk about Satmar and Anti-Zionism? Are you new to the CR?
I don’t think the mods are blocking 100 Satmar threads per day while letting through Chabad ones. There’s clearly just more of an interest in Chabad right now for some reason.
How many times do we have to go through this? Do people just want to push CS out of the CR this badly?
She’s already explained that what she’s does is OK according to her Rebbeim (same justification all of us tend to give). We’ve already explained that we have a problem with a lot of it anyway, including myself.
And, by the way, other Chassidim daven at graves of their past Rebbes, which is, I assume, what CS meant when she said this was a question about Chassidus in general.
Jeesh, I thought there was a word limit. Did he just suggest that every goyish holiday is anti-Semitic except for Christmas? Including, apparently, the whole season of Autumn.
“If your take the Rebbe out of the picture the whole thing falls apart”
I respectfully disagree. However, what you’re talking about with the upbringing based around kiruv and being “Hashem’s soldiers” etc. is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned the kiruv culture in Chabad. I think that’s exactly why it works in Chabad. It, however, causes the problem of people “graduating from Chabad.” It’s always a trade-off I reckon.
“Wait hml. I must say I completely disagree with you. I don’t pick up any of that from Joseph, or Most people here.”
Kol hakavod. When Joseph is anti-something (like Zionism, or the MO) it’s not ambiguous or veiled; he’s not anti-Chabad. I actually considered starting a fun, conspiracy theory thread that Joseph is a Lubavitcher where I would take a bunch of posts out of context etc, but I decided it would take way too much of my time for something that probably wouldn’t be allowed anyway.
Also, not really sure what’s with the nitpicking of Chabadshlucha’s posts. If she is actually a shlucha, then there’s a decent chance she’s old enough to have gotten a letter from the Rebbe when he was alive.
Also, she wrote “the Rebbe said.” Sounds pretty past tense to me. Not that it’s relevant; people say “the Chofetz Chaim says” (present tense) all the time without believing he’s alive.