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ZD: What’s more is that I hear even the Kosher fish markets just buy salmon from regular goyishe sources (as is mutar as stated above), slap a hechsher on it and mark up the price. People pay a huge premium just to have someone else rely on the heter that they don’t feel comfortable using themselves. By the way, I say “heter,” but I think it’s actually totally mutar l’hatchilah.
What does “assimilation to the right” mean? That’s not rhetorical; I actually don’t understand what you’re saying.
“1) Negative stereotypes about the groups”
You mean like saying Chassidim spend too much on weddings and don’t give tzedakah?“3) When assimilation is only regarded as such when it cuts to the left”
What does this even mean? Religious left or political left? Also, when have you seen this conversation about assimilation occur anywhere on this thread?“…And then not a single shred of evidence is provided to substantiate their statements save for some obscure references to “other posts”.”
What would you have us do, dig through old posts of CTL? At that point, I think we all agree it’s too personal. I don’t even know that CTL denies that his views might mesh well with parts of the MO (he admitted that he poskened like Rabbi JB Soloveitchik, so how could he not?) I think he just wishes to identify as he always has, as do many people of his generation. Surely, I’m not really the only one here who has run into people in identical situations to what CTL is describing .If anyone is still under the impression that the MO is the only part of the Orthodoxy that works and has an education then they need to speak with their local kiruv professional, not the CR. That was never anyone’s point, and you’re only making a fool of yourself shouting that out here.
NP, you said earlier you haven’t been on the CR long. Could it be that CTL’s posts on other threads concerning religious matters are what cause people to label him as MO rather than this thread alone? And, while we’re at it, when somebody says “I explained above,” that’s not called “repeating himself.”
RY: Why did you have to put the thread back on topic? The “classic Litvak” debate was much more interesting and cordial than listening to jealous slobs whine about Rabbonim who have more money than them.
Joseph: His point is that he’s Ashkenaz, Orthodox, and learned in Yeshiva; it sounds like back then that was called Litvish. The fact that the current use of the terms excludes all those who aren’t Chareidi is why he put the word “classic” in front of it.
I would be reluctant to start identifying as MO if I were him also. If he’s been one way his whole life, and for his entire upbringing they called that Litvish, it would be frustrating to have to change your identity when you haven’t changed your character at all.
Politics was never the main point. The fact that CTL thinks J.B. Soloveitchik was most qualified to posken for a “Litvak who follows in the ways of Brisk” is more demonstrative of IITFT’s point than politics.
I think what CTL is saying is that the way he is, is how most Litvaks were in America when he was a child. I’ve seen others in that age group (over 60 years young) who make similar claims. They may look and sound like they fit into the MO today, but apparently decades back, it wasn’t so black and white. I’m not old enough to try and take sides on this; I’m just pointing out to IITFT that–I think–CTL means he’s holding like the mainstream litvaks of ~45 years ago when he says “classic,” not the more right-wing Litvaks of today.
I was under the impression this was a frum site. I see I was mistaken.
Joseph, of course the OP views are coming from a MO person, but it doesn’t change what this thread might cause people to think.
Non-Political: It’s not circular logic. It’s years of being on the CR, and talking to people outside and observing how consistantly petty the MO is when talking about those more frum than them. It’s to the point of being boringly predictable.
If a chassidishe court is dishing out millions/tens of millions annually to the sick, the poor, etc, what difference does it make if the Rebbe saves $500 on his coat? Or even $5000 on his son’s wedding? That’s a drop in the bucket compared to what they’re giving. If someone gives like they’re supposed to, obviously they should be allowed to enjoy the rest of the fruits of their labor.
I’m not even sure what to say to some of these comments. This thread is making the entire Litvishe velt look like a petty, jealous joke (which we are not).
The Chasam Sofer davened Nusach Ashkenaz.
The Arizal was Ashkenazi, by the way. If he were born Sphardishe there would be nothing to talk about, Nusach-wise.
LC, I think Artscroll’s logic with the vehi noam is that, if they put it before weekday aleinu, it would look like they were condoning/supporting the practice of skipping all the other motzei Shabbos tefillos. They don’t seem to like legitimizing omissions regardless of how commonplace; I refer again the the infamous benching gray box…
As for the fact that they do have the vehi noam before aleinu in their Sphard siddur, maybe the minhag of most Chassidim is not to say the other stuff so they don’t mind condoning it there? I’m not sure.
It’s revisionist reality as well. The Chassidishe courts of today are known to be generous with tzedakah, including but not limited to those singled out in this thread.
Some rich people like to have over-the-top weddings. This could be true of goyim, Chassidim, Litvaks, Long Island non-frum yidden, etc. It’s silly to make this out to be a religious thing. Are you going to start criticizing the funerals of Rabbonim next?
Maybe the Nusach sphard omits all the other motzei shabbos stuff, which altogether would be too much to insert in a gray box after the amidah.
LC, surely you realize Sphardim wouldn’t agree with that statement. As you can see of this thread, everyone is just going to say that their own Nusach is the most accurate.
I think what he meant with the lobster case is that a BT is used to having eaten it his whole life. This concept has a basis in halachah by Pesach where there are harchakas on account of us being used to eating it our whole lives.
I assume he was talking about a “fresh off the boat” BT. If someone would make this presumption about a person who has been a BT for many years it would certainly be demeaning.
“So what would be the most “accurate” siddur nowadays or closest to the original tefillos?”
That’s a loaded question. As you can see, there are posters here who go with certain shittas which don’t believe that older implies more accurate.
Does anyone know what they use in the Breuer’s Shul? They seem like the kind of place that would strive to find the oldest version.
The little I know: Nobody says that any of the omissions I spoke of were forgeries. They have their roots in poskim that well predated the Gra and Baal HaTanya. If you wish, you can believe that everyone in all of Europe davened traditional Ashkenaz until the Gra and Baal HaTanya came along a took a bunch out and then they switched. But, I think that would be like believing everyone in America kept Chalav Yisroel perfectly until Reb Moshe came and gave them a heter. It may sound nicer, but it’s naive.
“Takes2-2tango
Participant
Why stop at smartphones?
How can you trust yourself to not be mechallel shabbos,eat traif, hilchos nidda,
Hilchos yichud. Getting up to daven before zman krias shma,eating on Yom kipper The list is endless!”Good point tango, Chazal made many gezeiras in all the points you mention, just like they do here with smart phones. Glad to see you support the smartphone ban.
On a side note to an earlier comment, the Baal HaTanya’s siddur is somewhat fascinating. It seems almost like a mix between Nusach HaGra and Nusach Sphard (not that I’m saying that was the intention as that would be ironic). He omits everything the Gra omits (baruch hashem omein v’omein, v’shamru at maariv, yotzros, etc.) but also includes the additions of Nusach Sphard in the Amida and P’sukei d’zimra. My theory is that the omissions made by the Gra and Baal HaTanya just reflect the trends in the custom of their location, and the halachic justifications they give are ex post facto. I imagine some people will be offended by this theory, but hopefully not.
“Sadly, no one has yet invented a kosher Shabbos/yom tov phone to use for davening but hope springs eternal that maybe in my lifetime….”
Sadly you’re a few centuries late for the situation of 1 town 1 nusach to exist. So, you will likely never see this.
“but I have davened in other shuls where it is said at a different time. I say the psalm for the day of the week after mussaf on Shabbos and Yom Tov, but I have been to shuls where it is said after shacharis. Knowing that these are possibilities reduces that moment of, “what on earth??” when I encounter such a variation.”
I like your point, but davening with Yitzchok Yair would in no way prepare you for these situations. It only has the shir shel yom after musaf and only has bameh madlikin before maariv.
LC, I do wonder on what siddur the Artscroll is based. It might say in those introductory pages that nobody reads. There are times when the siddur is ordered differently that how most poskim say to do so (sometimes the Artscroll commentary even admits it like with the brachah of hamapil). So, there’s clearly some default template off of which they’re based.
Yeah, I find it way less fool proof to use something like a phone or special machzor where the inserts aren’t in gray. That’s just a psychological difference though.
Avram: Okay, I understand what you’re saying. I personally use an Artscroll so obviously I don’t actually feel strongly about what I was saying; I was just trying to empathize with Gadol.
LC: Yes, nowadays I think almost no Siddurim use the flip-o-rama setup, but I suspect Artscroll might have been one of the first to switch. As for people donating to them, I would imagine in the early days it was done in the name of creating cheap Siddurim for the masses. Today, why someone would donate to a for profit company that’s become a borderline monopoly is totally beyond me.
“Why is it different or more difficult with the few other additions based on community?”
Yes and no. If you had a family custom to use a certain Siddur and say exactly every word of its print, that would certainly be more desirable than one that includes verses you just have to know to skip. It would make it easier to teach your kids your family Nusach also, rather than having to say “we don’t say this, we do say this, etc.”
“my question is (partly) if someone gets pleasure from burning things (ie a pyromaniac) allowed to destroy an issur hanaah by burning it?”
Now this is starting to get silly. You can’t derive benefit from the burning substance (eg. cook a barbecue on it). If the pyromaniac gets pleasure from it, he’s just enjoying the mitzvah. Just because he would also enjoy burning newpapers wouldn’t make any difference.
I’m not sure if it’s more linguistically accurate to translate hanaah as “pleasure,” but within context I think the translation of “deriving benefit” usually gets the point across more accurately and deters these kinds of questions.
Also, I forgot to mention earlier, a lot of ye olde siddurim (pre Artscroll) were written in such a way to save paper that required you to flip pages all over the place. If you’ve ever used one of these on Shabbos Rosh Chodesh, you know the nightmare. This could actually lead to serious mistakes. I think the point a lot of us are making is that Artscroll doesn’t dominate for Nusach reasons so much as simple, practical reasons.
I hear yanny.
The dress was blue and black in real life; you can find it on amazon. It only looks gold (to some people) in that one specific picture.
By the way, most of the specialized Siddurim people have mentioned here like Nusach HaGra may not have been translated as commonly as Artscroll, which gives Artscroll an edge for people who want that. Also, they probably give shuls a bulk purchase discount since they’re a big company.
I get what Gadol is saying. I personally do say shehem mishtachavim (sorry I can’t type in Hebrew on my computer) in the aleinu, but I skip that Aramaic line the Artscroll has in parentheses in the last paragraph of Az Yashir. I would understand wanting to find a siddur that omits what you omit and includes what you include, but there are many permutations; it’s not just a matter of Sphard vs. Ashkenaz.
Another good example would be the infamous gray paragraph Artscroll puts in benching, complete with a lamentation about how nobody says it anymore. I’ve never met anyone in my life that actually says that paragraph; I’m convinced there’s just one editor down at Artscroll that’s really passionate about it.
Yeah, what’s with the differences among Artscrolls? Do the donors get to say like “OK, I’ll give you the money, but only if you say “l’omer,” not “b’omer!”
I don’t get the argument on most hair coming from combing. There’s no bittul b’rov with avodah zara, is there?
It probably will eventually be impossible not to have a smart phone, but I don’t think that’s relevant to their current status. Let the rest of the world use them so that the dangers will be realized before b’nai Torah start using them. I would say the same about a potentially helpful/potentially harmful medicine.
The situation described by the OP is not one with which I am familiar. I am familiar with people questioning whether or not beggars in Jewish areas and really Jewish or just pretending to up their revenue.
Lolololololol I can’t believe they let that through.
“This point isn’t accurate at all.”
Perhaps if you live in some minhag haGra stronghold. In the baalhabatish world, second sfira is unheard of from what I’ve seen. And, don’t bring proofs down from poskim; I’m talking about reality, not theory.
Chabad women say the brachah? Don’t they usually not say brachos on mitzvos aseh shezman grama?
LC: Lag bomer day, not night.
Is that psak of Reb Moshe given above accurately represented? It seems like it hasn’t really gained any wide acceptance if so. The overwhelming majority of American Ashkenazim seem to keep first sfirah.
““People do have a right to decide if they dont want to use niggunim from someone who committed averios even the goyim disapprove of.”
The typical excuse of EVERY L”H that has been spoken for the past 2000 years….”
Yes, and it’s been a legitimate heter for 2000 years. If there was a Rabbi who presents himself as frum but teaches real kefira, it’s not Lashon Hara to warn people. By the way, I really don’t know if this is the case with Carlebach; not my monkey, not my circus. I’m just responding to the non-defense of L”H allegations against anyone with whom you disagree.
I don’t think the posthumous assault allegations against Carlebach are the thing people are taking issue with. There seems to be a bigger trend in his behavior throughout his life being referenced, but I really know nothing about the matter.
I know I’ll be criticized for saying this: it’s probably not a battle worth fighting.
Introduce yourself by your Hebrew name to all new people you meet; if you change jobs you can introduce yourself by your Hebrew name. But, if people have called you one thing for years in your workplace, it’s just not practical to switch it. You can change yourself when you become more religious, but you can’t change other people.
I don’t think anyone was actually claiming Carlebach did the exact same thing as the producer.
What is this case about the “pikuach nefesh” excuse?
“ZD, why would you advocate following the goyim’s example? That’s a terrible idea.”
You clearly didn’t get the mushul. He was saying, if EVEN the goyim say this kind of behavior is below their societal standards, then obviously it should be below our’s. If you know the case he’s talking about, I don’t see how you can disagree.
OK, so who’s going to start the “Upon Discovering Your Shul Uses George Soros Niggunim” thread?
I thought MO shuls used Conservative tunes all the time? Maybe it’s actually Conservative Shuls using MO tunes and I have it backwards.
How could anyone say BT’s have it easier?