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I would support Lieberman.
Fakemaven: Bringing proofs from the maharil’s definition of the word nignaz and general statements about the concept of “safek d’oraisa l’chumra” are lomdus points, not l’maaseh. The only l’maasehdik argument you have for the techeiles is to bring the actual poskim who were matir it, and they are few and far between as you know.
If we were debating something about electricity on Shabbos, bringing proofs from Reb Moshe and the Chazon Ish, and then you came in bringing your interpretation of a Rashi contradicting all shittas, would you really expect to be taken seriously? This is a contemporary issue and it needs to be decided by contemporary poskim who know the sources better than we do.
FakeMaven: There’s no doubt that you’ve done research on this topic, but what you seem to be doing here is focusing on one aspect of the theoretical component of the discussion in order to completely ignore the l’maaseh. The reality, which is not in your favor, is that almost all relevant poskim do not wear the techeles.
You can use lomdus points to make almost anything sound good, in theory. But, it doesn’t change the reality and it isn’t going to change what people do.
We aren’t denying that you’ve done your research. We’re just denying that you’ve done more research than all the gedolei yisroel combined as you seem to think.
I have no strong opinion on the techeles issue at all, but what I find fascinating here is that the pro side is talking like they were raised locked in a basement and only shown the pro-techeles shittas so that it’s absolutely shocking when people assert that rov poskim are opposed.
Also, a video of Reb Chaim saying “if you had the real techeles you should wear it” as proof? Come on… That’s beyond a loaded question. That’s like asking “if you knew for a fact that this batch of chalav stam milk were actually pig’s blood died white, could you drink it?” And then using the psak as a proof against all chalav stam.
It has a category for Ashkenaz, but not for Sphard. I’m not sure what it would tell someone if they were 100% Sphardi and they took it.
Also, heads up, it always tells everyone that they’re like 2% African. I think it’s a political correctness thing.
ZD:
My apologies. You are correct.“As far as I know there aren’t any halachic “cons” to wearing blue strings, or any other color for that matter.”
Forget the techeiles debate, if you truly aren’t trolling, you need to be informed that nobody allows you to just dye tzitzis any color you want. Even the techeiles folks agree to that.
“What is wrong with presumptions based on similarities? Don’t most teshuvos deduce from precedent? ”
You think it’s the right of any random CR poster to do that and use it as a basis to posken for himself differently than the posek hador? Even Gaon admitted that frum poskim haven’t come out in support of the eruv after Reb Moshe’s psak. Also, the population of Manhattan has grown by a magnitude of 10 in the past century. How could it make sense to bring proofs from Rabbonim of the early 20th century?
“There is no such common practice.”
This is why I’m still posting on this thread. What issue do you guys have with just admitting that only MO people hold of the eruv? I thought I was pretty specific that when I referred to “common practice” I was excluding the Modern crowd. Otherwise, when would you draw the line? Why not include the millions of Conservative/Reform Jews in your “common practice” calculation and say that “there is no such common practice of keeping Shabbos at all?” The point is, on a theoretical level, you could stay and debate it all day; on a here and now reality level, it’s a sectarian shittah specific to the MO, and you need to stop pretending it’s any more than that.
Which assertion?
Talmid: Who here is saying that? With all the arguments going on here on this thread, the one thing we ALL agree on is that Reb Moshe assur’d the Manhattan and Brooklyn eruvin. The discussion has seemed to have turned to whether or not you can rely on other poskim who disagreed. Everybody knows Reb Moshe’s shittah on this matter; it’s extremely common knowledge.
Gaon: The point about how accepted Reb Moshe’s psak was is as simple as this: name one non-MO Rabbi TODAY who told you you can carry in Manhattan. Not presumptions on what Rabbis in 19th century Warsaw would have said on the matter. The common practice in the frum velt is to go like Reb Moshe on this halachah; that fact that common practice doesn’t go like him in other areas proves absolutely nothing.
Milhouse: care to bring any proof as to why you can state with such confidence that it’s false?
What Milhouse is saying is only true in cases where it might cause embarrassment. And, I could see people be strict even then.
If somebody invited you and then said, “hey, I know you’re stricter with kashrus in this regard, so if you don’t want to eat this it’s fine,” then you wouldn’t eat it. You’re talking about shalom bayis heterim, not some system of halachic relativism in which you automatically convert to the shittas of whomever’s house you happen to be eating.
As a proof to that, while it’s true we don’t treat those who hold by bad eruvin as posul from eidus, you still aren’t allowed to benefit directly from them carrying on Shabbos. Their shittah is not actually considered to carry water (no pun intended); we just interact with them in the way that will cause the least embarrassment sometimes meaning relying on kulos.
Bump. Just trying to help this thread compete with the other, identical one. I pull for underdogs.
“As per Chazon Ish, most cities nowadays are by default a reshus hayachid”
To be clear, this is the Manhattan/Brooklyn-eruv-supporter interpretation of the Chazon Ish, right? Nowhere is there written evidence that the Chazon Ish called downtown Manhatten a “reshus hayachid.” I’m aware of the shittah to which you refer, and it’s your right to interpret it as you’ve been taught, but it’s a little disingenuous to make it sound like there’s an explicit Chazon Ish which states as you stated.
Talmidchochom:
People here quote gedolim all the time. Would you get this upset at people over quoting Rashi/Tosfos even though we didn’t “know them?”We have other threads here also where we discuss out favorite beers and such. Perhaps you’d have a better time on those if you find the idea of bringing proofs from poskim so offensive.
I have no idea which side of this debate you’re on or if you’ve even posted here yet; this is too big to keep all the names straight. But, your premise that people shouldn’t be allowed to quote a posek unless they knew him personally is absurd. You made no mention to whom you believe misrepresented Reb Moshe, but I presume your quote is a reaction to someone who brought a proof that didn’t jive with your shittah on this matter. Grow up, and bring a real counter proof.
“Are you really claiming your post was simply a non-controversial comment about hats? – 29”
When did I claim that? The said that part of the post about the hat design i.e. the flatness was non-controversial. Obviously the other part was controversial.
For those who are curious, I’ll try to hint at this in a way that won’t be blocked. As has been stated here by others, Chabad hats are flatter and more crushed for lack of a better word. What got my comment blocked is that I claimed it to be part of a greater “Chabad-look.” I did not word it in such a nice way, hence why it was blocked.
Lol when did I ever tell anyone to be civil? Someone has to turn this thread into a brawl at some point.
Anyway, what I said strictly about the hat design was not controversial. Their hats are more compressed.
Are you really claiming your post was simply a non-controversial comment about hats? – 29
I’m sorry to hear that. We’ve missed you here on the CR for a while now too. It’s good to hear from you again even though it is under sad circumstances. Chag sameach.
“So why can’t train tracks or any highway be a barrier to separate…how do you define a barrier? is there a shiur how wide etc..?”
I have no idea. I really don’t know what defines a barrier; I just do what the posek hador says.
“How come no rebbe makes an official statement that the Flatbush eruv is kosher? There was a kol kore written by many gedolim, not too long ago,that it’s not a good eruv?”
I’m not sure how much of this thread you’ve read over, but it’s pretty well-known that Reb Moshe ruled it assur. If you want to be a respected Rabbi in the frum community, you probably don’t want to go arguing on Reb Moshe without really good reason.
EDITED! And this from the guy who keeps telling people to be civil? – 29
I think it’s based in the way they’re partitioned. If there were no barrier between KGH and downtown Flushing (Mandarin Town) then I presume there probably wouldn’t be an eruv in KGH because it would be considered one town with well over 600k people. My understanding is that the LIE is essential in allowing there to be an eruv in KGH.
The boarders between Flatbush and surrounding neighborhoods have no physical barriers like highways; they’re just random, so they might all get counted as 1. As for the non-KGH Queens eruvim, I would imagine some of them are actually contested, but I admit I haven’t heard so either. It’s definitely always worth asking about before relying on one.
“this atmosphere is almost lost”
Are you sad that the atmosphere is lost? Would you prefer our relations with Germany to be bad again?
Where’s the Nassau border?
Also, can anyone tell me what’s up with seemingly frum people crossing the Van Wick while carrying on Shabbos? Are they all just cases of being “spoiled by the eruv” and they don’t know better?
“defend the practice of allowing synagogue members to drive to synagogue on Yom Kippur and Shabbos without reproach.”
That doesn’t mean those posters hold that it’s mutar to drive on Yom Kippur. Counting them in a minyan is another discussion. Other than that, what kind of “reproach” is there? Are you just referring to the people peddling the kiruv-friendly, PC mantra of “it’s so beautiful that they’re actually doing something for Yom Kippur; even though they drove it’s such a big mitzvah; wow look at the big mitzvah boy, etc?” If so, yes, I agree that needs to stop and I’m insanely sick of it too. It’s like saying when they worshiped idols in the Beis HaMikdash that “at least it got Jews to show up, and I think that’s beautiful.”
Why would anyone on this site care about this? I don’t think we have any posters here anymore that are the drive-on-Yom-Kippur types. And, if someone were to be considering driving on Yom Kippur, they aren’t going to care what the halachah says. Why would we suspect someone of being a “right-winger” for suggesting people follow the most basic level of halachah?
I assume this is some form of trolling, but I don’t see why anyone would be upset by this. It’s just kind of weird and confusing, frankly.
“wouldn’t those population changes potentially affect the psak since the psak is determined based on population?”
Probably. But, hasn’t the population grown? Allegedly, Brooklyn has over 2 million residents now.
“So when Joseph tells jewish people not to shave, thTs not rhetoric.but when i make a comment about skver chasdidim then all of a sudden its rhetoric?”
Weird broken English aside, do you honestly not see how the two situations are in no way comparable? Or, are you just backed up against a wall and intend to go down with the sinking ship that is your argument?
This thread gave me the uncontrollable urge to crack my knuckles.
“I have never seen a map or a sign saying eruv ends here”
You’re referring specifically to Brooklyn or all eruvim? Queens has such signs.Working on It: Would you tell Reb Moshe he has no idea what he’s talking about? The gaavah of the open orthodoxy knows no bounds.
I theoretically agree with Avi K, but I don’t think there would be enough jobs to go around. If they hire 10 guys to mow a lawn that could be mowed by just one, they probably end up spending more than they would by just giving away the money for free.
“Joseph, in mussar yeshivot a man was NOT Allowed to grow a beard until he married.”
Why the past tense? It’s still this way today.
Anyhow, if Takes2 is not joking with that boots statement then he has way bigger things to worry about than being clean shaven. Maybe he should drop his Nazi-style rhetoric of bashing on entire groups of Jews for their choice of foot-ware.
Ah, so this is a backdoor way of restarting a discussion that recently took place on another thread.
“Maybe you can share with me, once homosexuality and transgenderism become completely integrated and accepted within American society thanks to the politicians that you voted for”
It’s already too late; wake up and smell the roses. The Republicans don’t even run on this platform anymore. I agree that it’s a bad thing and that we shouldn’t have let it get to this point, but it’s not getting any better.
We’re arguing over a theoretical choice. The southern, Republican states are the ones that have good vouchers and they’re also less socially liberal (obviously). So, in reality, of course it’s better for us to vote Republican at this time. But, if the issues ever changed, we should vote based on the issues not the name of the party.
“How do “heimish” people afford these cars?”
They’re rich? Do we need to reopen the “heimish” thread?
“We stand up for morality and vote for the candidate who is against gay rights even if he is against vouchers.”
When tuition costs 3 times as much as your salary, occupying the moral high ground looks a lot less appealing. People who talk about vouchers might actually do something with vouchers if they get elected. People who talk about gay marriage in 2018 are just pandering and aren’t able to actually change anything nor do they have any intention to do so.
I assumed it was just the most practical device for covering one’s head in the least intrusive manor. Does that answer the question?
What were they actually fighting about?
“It’s an irrelevant question. If there’s nothing wrong with it then no endorsements are needed.”
Who says there’s nothing wrong with them? If a gadol doesn’t specifically acknowledge open orthodox shul’s ordaining of females do you think that means he approves of it?
Of course anything new needs approval. How could any frum yid claim it doesn’t.
“no one is right or wrong.(at least in my opinion.)”
Says the guy who just claimed that minhag Sphard is abjectly superior. And, obviously someone will find Sphardi Slichos easier; they say the same ones every day. That doesn’t make them better (or worse).
“There is a huge difference between frolicking at selichos and playing music at selichos.”
Yes, thank you. That’s what you, me, and several others have been repeating throughout this thread, yet they just keep going back to “what’s the big deal about a guitar? People have had music at slichos for forever.”
A lot of “millennials” are/were in Yeshiva and are probably some of the most hot-headedly opposed to Carlbachers. This isn’t really an age issue. We aren’t talking about BMG guys going off the derech if they can’t have slichos parties. These are people already into hippie Judaism and it should go without saying that it’s in the best interests of the Torah world to get them back to real Judaism. Legitimizing their charades in the name of kiruv or “adding meaning” is not going to help accomplish that.
Wait a minute, back up. Joseph works at a public school?
“not hat I know of, but as you may know their was a big machlokes at the time when some tried to add elements of simcha to Judaism”
First of all, unless one of those specific “elements of simcha” was applied to slichos, you have no point in bringing it into this thread. Chassidim didn’t invent nor do they have a patent on simcha.
The point is, Carlebachers and other neo-chassidim (not actual chasidim) have purposely blurred the lines on when we’re supposed to be happy and when we’re supposed to be serious. Slichos parties are just an extreme and recent example. I’m sure the general problem is something that’s culminated in people’s minds for years. If you start selling out the Torah in the name of making it more engaging, meaningful, fun (whatever word you want to use) for the young people, you will inevitably end up with Reform Judaism in the end.
“You know well that I am not screaming accusations of trolling at anyone with whom I disagree.”
I didn’t mean to offend you; maybe the way I put it was too harsh. But, I have to say, it sure came across like that’s exactly what you were doing.
Yitzchok is seemingly trying to state that there should be a stigma on divorce to protect the children. I didn’t see an actual rebuttal to that other than an accusation that he’s Joseph. I could have just missed a post, I suppose.
“The 18th century called they want their machlokes back .”
When did any rabbi in the 18th century claim that Slichos are meant to be a time of simcha?
“The one I know for sure was doing this, not just 100 but 150 years ago, is Lubavitch.”
Egasp. Who saw that coming?
“Involving a Rav or BD before the civil divorce is common practice.”
CTL admitted that he wasn’t speaking strictly of the frum community in regards to his experiences (specifically ravs not being involved). The rest of the thread seemed to be mainly focusing on frum communities.“a classic delay tactic used by either spouse is to block efforts at proceeding to a get by claiming to want “shalom bayis”.”
Can you explain what you mean by this? What ulterior motive do they have to delay to proceedings? While we’re talking about stigmas, why is there this stigma on one party trying to stop the divorce from happening? Breakups are never mutual; why is the one side who wanted to stay married always villainized, especially if it’s the man? I’m actually asking, not trying to be argumentative.“The concept of a halachic pre-nup is to avoid such charades.”
This wouldn’t really apply to the frum communities being discussed by most posters or the very non-religious clients that CTL might have to deal with. It’s only a very thin group within the Jewish world that would use this.Yitzchok’s writing style is not the same as that of Joseph. Whether or not they actually are the same person, which I do not believe they are, is irrelevant. I don’t agree 100% with everything they’re saying either, but it doesn’t help anything to just scream insults and accusations of trolling at anyone with whom you disagree.
Yitzchok, I get why you don’t want the frum world to treat divorce with the same frivolity as the secular world. It could be that there is some healthy level of stigma that should exist on the institution of divorce in general. But, how does anything productive come from the kids being treated poorly/having to struggle is shidduchim? The kids didn’t do anything wrong. Even if somebody held that divorce were forbidden like some other religions do, why would anyone want the kids to be the one receiving the punishment for it?
Yes, Milhouse, everyone who ever disagrees with Chabad is either an am haaretz or operating on sinas chinam. I love it when you guys show your true colors on these forums and thwart your own propaganda efforts.
I couldn’t care less what mikvah your women use. But, nobody wants your Chabad shittahs enforced on us. None of us asked for them. Just let us live our lives and stop assuming everyone is a “hater” if they don’t baby you and tell you how great you are all the time for being a Lubavitcher.
By the way, it’s common sense that if something is done a certain way for thousands of years (eg. how mikvahs work) and then one group comes along in changes it, the absence of explicit approval of the new shittah implies rejection.
Froggie is 100% on point. You others aren’t seeing the forest through the trees. The problem is not something as simple as a guitar. It’s the fact that Carlebachers are insisting on making every aspect of the Torah happy hippie fun time. There are times when we’re supposed to have simcha, and then there are times like leil slichos.