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I’ll let the other readers draw their own conclusions. I think you’ve dug a deep enough grave for yourself.
Not sure we’re getting all the details. When frum yidden end up having to go to zionist schools because they’re forced to based on where they live, I think it’s pretty common to avoid taking part in the religious-Zionist activities.
Were they doing it for religious reasons or political reasons to be like the NFL players?
“You should learn Noam Elimelech and other early Chassidic texts and then you will at least see the things you find offensive about Lubavitch (which I obviously would not consider worship) are really just mainstream Chassidus. ”
You can’t bring lomdus to a metzius fight. That’s like if I were to say “Islam is a violent religion,” and you responded with “but this verse in the Quran says to be peaceful.”
Another few fallacies you committed: you assume I’ve never learned other classic Chassidic texts; you’re wrong. Other classics like the Yismach Moshe, Sfas Emes, and to some degree even Breslev Chassidus are categorically more traditionally text-based than Chabad’s tend to be. By which I mean, the prerequisite knowledge of shas and poskim to learn the Chabad Rebbe’s works is much lower than for other Chassidishe texts. I think I’ve even heard Lubavitchers mention this as a good thing about Chabad, but it’s an admission that Chabad is different than other Chassidim. You can’t have it both ways.
You also seemed to assume I’m not acquainted with any non-Chabad chassidim, which is completely baseless and untrue. I have to assume that you yourself have not had a lot of exposure to them and are assuming everyone else is just as sheltered. It’s unusual even for proud Lubavitchers to deny that their derech is completely different than that of other chassidim.
I cannot believe they let another Chabad thread pop up. I also can’t believe my own lack of self restraint in clicking on it.
To the OP, if I were feeling in a complimentary towards Chabad mood, I would say:
Poor man’s yiddishkeit (I mean that in a good way, which I can explain). Be the most successful kiruv organization to ever exist.If I were feeling how I’m actually feeling thanks to the other thread:
Worship the Rebbe as he is the only path to salvation. Convert all other yidden to Rebbe-worship at all costs by means of feigning affection/respect.“i dont understand the Israeli Charedi vision.”
They have wealthy family and/or sponsors in the US who do the dirty work (i.e. the kind of jobs you mentioned). I don’t want to say that the dynamic of having some people be full time learners and some people be balhabatim who sponsor leaning is inherently wrong (although I know the MO disagrees with it, I can see both sides). It’s only natural that the balhabatish side of the community would reside in the country with the better economy, the US, and the learning side of the community would reside in the country that’s a welfare state.
For the YU thing, I didn’t expect you to agree. I had no intention on changing your opinions or belittling them. The only reason I brought it in is because I thought people were making a kal v’chomer that “if a frum person wouldn’t be willing to send his son to YU, then he definitely wouldn’t be willing to send him to a secular university.” This is not the reality.
I apologize for earlier saying that my post had been deleted by the mods. Although, I would have understood had they done so, it turns out they actually didn’t, so that might have caused some confusion. I think there was just a huge backlog of posts for this thread.
Sechel: Neither I nor Syag nor anyone accused you of defending TT. We accused you of saying that his rhetoric proves familiarity with Chabad, thus proving that Chabadniks do actually talk that way. You have, in fact, restated this claim every time you’ve tried to argue back against us. Just digging the grave even deeper.
CS: Don’t assume you’re being singled out for moderation. The mods came down hard on litvishchossid in the past for going too far in his critiques, and they just mod’d out one of my posts that was probably too anti-Chabad (I suspected it would be deleted and I bare no ill will against the mods for this). ???
Two points that I do think they’ll allow through: 1 this thread should/will probably be closed soon. 2, CS and Sechel cannot back peddle now. As Syag and others pointed out, you guys confirmed beyond all doubt that the stuff TT is saying is regularly said in Chabad circles. I recommend people keep this thread handy for references to their true colors for the future when CS tries to start new “kind-spirited, civilized” discussions assuming they’re going to allow them to keep doing this.
I doubt this thread has much more time. I think it’s terminally ill in its moderation status.
Whether TT is a Litvish troll or a real Chabadnik, he has proven everything I’ve been saying, as far as I’m concerned: the “civilized” Chabadniks here are just as bad as the “crazy Tzfatist” ones, they’ve just been trained how to talk. They are completely programmed beyond repair. They are unambiguously a personality cult. Look at the Lev Tahor article on the home page and read their practices like only learning the gemaras that further their rebbe’s cause and tell me it doesn’t sound familiar.
You Lubavitchers could have responded to TT by saying he’s just a troll, or by saying he doesn’t represent you. Whether or not you criticize his rhetoric is irrelevant at this point; you admitted that he draws all his material from mainstream Chabad views. We’ve now heard multiple people say that Chabad says this kind of stuff: icemelter, Burntface, litvishchosid, myself, and now TT with your confirmation. How many people can you claim and just a coincidence/lies? Are you still going to try to convince us you respect our rabbis, CS? Do you still think it’s going to work to derail the discussion away from TT by making a bunch of lengthy “look how great the Rebbe was” posts? You know nobody reads those, right?
On the home page they let a guy or two who were Lev Tahor supporters post, which I guess makes sense as long as they weren’t obscene. But, would you let them come here and make a bunch of pro-Lev Tahor threads? I’m starting to fail to see how this is even any different.
Avi, I know it’s your whole shtick, but maybe take a break from the whole “death to Ashkenaz” thing for a day. This thread has nothing to do with any of that.
If they insist on letting letting natural selection run its course, why do they have to mingle with the rest of us? Why can’t they move to an island somewhere and build an anti-vaxxer utopia. We’ll go check on them in a hundred years… and give them proper burials…
The new trend in the Yeshiva community that seems to be emerging is the best and only way to deal with it: treat anti-vaxxers as second-class citizens.
There’s no point is trying to reason with them. The only language they will understand is social ostracism given that their whole belief system is based on being part of a cult of like-minded weirdos. When they see that the social harms of being part of the club outweigh the benefits, they will suddenly start believing in science. Then, the time will come for the rest of us to forgive and pretend to forget that those individuals used to be complete morons.
OK, good, so conventional wisdom would imply that NYC would go broke again if they offered free tuition again. I truly don’t see where you’re going with the argument.
“True, there is a view from Hilel that techiyas hamesim will occur together with the coming of Moshiach”
As far as my understanding goes, it’s still a stretch to say this means he believed the Moshiach could be someone not living. Is it explicitly stated anywhere that “by this shittah, Moshiach can be a dead person,” or is that strictly Chabad and Christianity’s way of learning?
“We don’t face communal/ familial ostracism etc.”
You’re still missing the point people are making with that accusation. Bringing Chabad’s relationship with chilonim as a proof doesn’t help you. As everyone can plainly see from this thread, Chabad’s ability to relate with other groups of frum yidden is non-existent. Chabad is definitively separate from the rest of the frum community; you can chose to blame whichever side you like for that, but it’s the reality. Case and point, you just admitted that your own parents are/were Litvish, yet you have a very low understanding of the Litvish world. You said earlier that you like the opportunity the CR gives to be educated about Litvish shittas; how can it be that you need the CR for that when your own parents are Litvaks? Did you just cut off all contact with them?
Finally, in full fairness, I’m glad you finally admitted your approach to meshichism. I will not ask you to expound any further on that, as it seems we got our answer. I know that shluchim are not supposed to talk about/admit to these things, so thank you for breaking protocol for our benefit.
““Goes to show that you’re not actually so familiar with Lubavitch:)
I never heard this person being nicknamed “Shofech Domim” but I got the inference right away”The fact that you got the inference right away reflects very poorly on the company you keep, far worse than TTs post in fact.”
My thoughts exactly. I still don’t really follow that part of the discussion (maybe it’s good that I don’t). But, from what I can pick up, TT is probably some non-Chabad, extremely well-thought out troll that I could just laugh off. The fact that real Lubavitchers seem to think he’s speaking their language makes me a little more uneasy, which I didn’t think was possible.
I don’t see how you can use the old system many states had of free tuition as a proof in its favor. If it worked, why do you think they all stopped doing it? Corporate greed?
It was a different percentage of the population going to college back then.
I have to hand it to him. Someone had to kill this thread somehow. This is fine work.
“One week after Election Day and results keep coming in:”
You’re okay with the fact that this statement is able to be true thanks to illegal activity done by at least one person with a criminal past of voter fraud?
I’m not arguing with your thoughts on the title of this thread. I agree that this should be categorized as a Democrat victory. But, I don’t see how it should be a point of pride that certain people are trying to extend the victory by fraudulent means.
I’ve been a consistent critic of the MO, yet I find myself agreeing with almost everything SarahLevine says. I wish she didn’t feel like she had to become apologetic at the end there.
Most of the American Litvish world has either lived in NYC at some point, or been influenced by its culture of aggressiveness. Bochrim can have a heated debate over a gemara in yeshiva and then go back to business as usual afterwards, but people don’t act that way towards each other in the working world; they just don’t. I think they tend to calm down and become normal after they’ve been working for a year or two. I assume Sarah is referring to the actions of people currently in yeshiva.
What she is saying about education also makes sense, but I will say YU took it to an extreme. Too many people talk about these trends to call it a coincidence: the Yeshiva system drifted farther into the anti-secular education direction, and the YU’ish world drifted into the anti-Orthodox/anti-halachah direction. People shouldn’t have to chose between sending their kid to a school that will endanger their frumkeit and sending them to schools that will give them terrible educations.
By the way, people don’t tend to say it publicly on the CR, but I will: the standard shittah in the non-MO world is that you’re better off sending your kid to a kosher, goyish University than to YU. YU has a track record of peer-pressuring people into being less frum.
I think the OP meant words where you actually mix up the letters or something. The trend of pronouncing the ayin the same as an aleph is so mainstream I don’t see the point of mentioning it as a “mistake.” It’s about 100 years too late to try to fix that.
I used to say “nigdol” in the lamnazeiach mizmor l’david every morning. Then, there was another one of these threads on the CR where are poster named papa bar abba mentioned he had made that mistake for years. That caused me to look in the siddur and realize that it’s actually nidgol and I had been saying it wrongly as well.
“My congregants let out a round of solemn applause.”
Ironically, that means they all did an aveira… Sooo, not really sure they can be used as the yardstick of Torah values.Jackk: Are you actually asserting that the current boarder control is successful at keeping out illegals? Do you live in an actual, physical ivory tower somewhere?
Wow. That has to be the most confusing comment I’ve ever seen in CR history. I refer to Ziongate’s.
As to the OP, you don’t speak for all of us when you imply that nobody thought there was Antisemitism in America. Most of us were never that naive.
The ADL statistics have always shown pretty significant portions of a population as harboring Anti Semitic beliefs, especially in minority communities. The last release of data that had a headline of something like “spike in anti semitic incidents last year!” actually showed a decrease in assaults. The increase in incidents was entirely from the internet giving people a platform to harass.
It seems like what you’re saying is that political correctness once protected us from hate speech, and now it’s gone. I don’t believe this. The internet has been used by Anti Semitic trolls probably since the days of dial-up. It has recently gained a lot of attention in efforts to convince everyone to associate it with Trump.
There has been openly condoned Antisemitism coming from places like Chalie Hebdo, Atheist comedians, South Park, and Al Jazeera for years. Those are what desensitized people from it, if anything.
“Unfortunately, Lubavich worldwide is MUCH worse in this area than all other chareidi groups.”
You aren’t looking at the Chareidi faction of Lubavitch if you’re talking about women wearing miniskirts.
There are a lot more non-Chassidishe girls out there keeping no standard of tznius whatsoever who are part of the MO community. You’re comparing strictly the Chareidi part of the American Orthodox population to the entire Lubavitch population including MO Lubavitchers. It’s not apples to apples.
You could say, “well why don’t they make the line more clear where frum ends and MO begins in their community like we do?” But, clearly they are trying. You mentioned the publications criticizing the tznius problem in their neighborhood, and I mentioned the schools enforcing it.
I don’t know. I think Chabad has enough issues that we don’t need to make up new ones with selective observations.
“Try to apply the standard to any other chassidus and you’ll see where your complaint about the fallacy of the tznius argument regarding Chabad fails.
Have you ever seen Belz, Satmar, Get, etc. groups behaving and dressing as you see in Chabad?”
For sure the other Chassidim are more tznius. Not even CS denied that. I, however, am not Chassidishe (I thought you weren’t either), so I don’t think it would really be fair to talk about Chabad’s tznius standards when we have the same problem.
Have you ever seen groups of girls in an “Orthodox” community like Cedarhurst or Riverdale? You would think you were in Las Vegas, and they aren’t Chabadniks. The problem seems much worse in towns that are MO strongholds than in Chabad areas. It’s not uncommon to see girls dressed in a way that are beneath goyish, public school standards (truthfully, I’m not exaggerating). I guess these are all just personal observations.
Wait, I’m confused, you live in America or Beit Shemesh?
“they, as an unfortunate side outcome, have much worse tznius issues than we have. But I think I’ll leave it at that unless you want me to hint further.”
Of course we want you to hint more. If you leave it open-ended like that we’ll assume all kinds of crazy stuff.
I don’t really want to get into the tznius discussion as I’ve never really seen the problem most people are talking about. Real, frum Lubavitch women seem to keep the same standards as Litvish women. As far as I can tell, the only way people are claiming they’re worse is by including “Modern Lubavitchers” in the calculation. I’ve never found it fair to exclude Ashkenazi MO from the Litvish world, but then include MO Chabad when comparing. I’m sure there’s a name for that logical fallacy in debating, but I can’t think of it.
I know for a fact that some Chabad schools have maximum sheitel length requirements for the mothers of potential students. They also require strict phone filters. So, parts of their community are trying to combat these issues. The point is not whether or not they are successful, the point is that these problems are not b’shittah. They are most likely an unfortunate side-effect of being a kiruv movement.
To be clear, though, I’m not backing down from what I said earlier. The other things we discussed are problematic things Chabad believes that are for sure b’shittah.
“One of the “tricks” Lubachivers use when speaking to other frum Yidden is, “Everybody agrees that the rebbe was one of the greatest tzaddikim of the generation…” and from there it’s not a great leap to convince everyone that only chabad chassidus is the true derech of the Baal Shem, and that we should all be sending out children to chabad schools etc etc etc.”
True, but their other trick is to dismiss anyone who criticizes the Rebbe as “Anti-Semitic against Chabad.” This lose-lose situation has been pointed out before, but it never makes any difference.
I didn’t see RSo address the Moshe Rabbeinu point. Are you sure you weren’t seeing Non Political’s post? That wasn’t visible when I was typing my previous post.
While I’m typing, I have to air one last grievance that’s been bothering me.
Chabadshlucha seems to have created an account on an obviously predominantly Litvish forum for the express purposes of propagandizing Chabad and arguing against all other shittas. With this in mind, I am sick of hearing “we know you’re intentions are good,” and “we know you don’t mean any disrespect.” Do you think we would lauded for good intentions if any of us did this on a Chabad site? Every person who ever does anything (including terrorists) think they’re doing it for good reasons.The tone of these threads is radically different than other fight threads like the old Zionist fights. It’s not because she’s more respectful. It’s because she’s not truly arguing. She’s trying to educate and advertise essentially, as though all disagreements stem from us knowing less than her. Just look at the title of this thread if you don’t believe me. It has never been the purpose or use of the CR to redundantly advertise one sect. I’m quite sure we’ve had Lubavitch posters here for years, yet these threads suddenly got out of hand as the result of one person’s “good intentions.”
“For one it shows people that don’t know that much about chabad how it really is”
Exactly. As frustrating as it is, it’s good to have her Freudian slips recorded on the internet. The cynic in me would say that once someone is already on the path to being a “friend of Chabad,” they would just write her comments off as a coincidence, or “just one fanatic,” or some such thing as they always do. But, I still have hope it’ll affect someone.
For us who are more in the know (and therefore by extension are NOT friends of Chabad), I think it does give a degree of comfort to find other people who have had the same problems with them as us.
RSo, I’m not sure I agree with all of your last post. Satmars are going to hold their Rebbe to be a tzaddik, Lubavitchers will hold their’s to be a tzaddik; I don’t really think we need to require them to bring proofs from other sources. Also, judging a rabbi by the actions taken by his followers after his death is a dangerous road to go down. The easy Chabad defense would be that the Rebbe saw that the need for kiruv was so great the the risks of damaging Chabad’s integrity were worth it. Regardless of what you might hold, publicly belittling the Chabad rebbe here could potentially help CS’ cause more than anything she’s ever said.
“The main site always took a far more liberal POV in both the content of the articles as well as in the approved comments.”
In the religious sense, definitely. I wonder if there’s a discrepancy between the readers of the home page and the users of the CR too. Maybe the silent majority of readers fall in line with the bias of the homepage more so than that of the CR, which is swayed by a relatively small number of overly-active posters such as myself and Joseph.
I’m actually really glad you guys responded to that. I always had wondered if it was a different set of mods.
Point b I realize was really an extension of the first point. The bothersome comments about Rabbi Auerbach were all made on articles if I remember correctly. I always wondered why the vibe of the homepage felt like a totally different bias than that of the CR. Now I don’t have to ever again consider rage quitting the CR over stuff I disagree with on the home page! I’m in for the long haul!
Glad to have you
“OK so who’s skirting now?”
Okay, you may respond on the condition that you either a) apologize to belittling our Rebbeim in a way that isn’t a loaded apology like “I’m sorry you misunderstood what I said,” or b) answer whether or not you believe the Rebbe is moshiach, which is what you’ve been skirting all along.
Otherwise, the answer is still you; you’re still the one skirting.I can’t speak for everyone, but I personally have not disparaged your Rebbe here. Criticizing things his followers do is not the same thing as criticizing him. His sichos on chumash are not something a random bum off the street could accomplish. We know, by virtue of the fact that you’re a Lubavitcher, that you hold him higher than his contemporaries. If I made an account on a popular Chabad forum for the purpose of “explaining” to everyone how the Litvish gedolim are actually superior and how Chabadniks are actually “misunderstanding” everything we say about them, would you think of me as a good person? Because that’s exactly what you’re doing here.
As for this tourist attraction story, you never named the rabbi in the story so how are we supposed to compare him to Rav Shteinman? I have heard personal stories about Rav Shteinman making similar comments to people in order to make them feel more comfortable. In fact, I think I’ve even heard Lubavitchers tell stories about the Rebbe speaking of mundane subjects with followers to show that he can relate to them. The only possible take-away you wanted from that story was to imply that the rabbi was inferior to Lubavitchers. Why do you still think we don’t see through these things? Or, at this point, have you just pulled out the stops and decided to be an all-purpose troll account because you’re angry at us?
The moderation habits are very hard to figure out. I think they might be more lenient on article comments than they are in the CR too.
They let through a lot of stuff that I didn’t think they should have regarding HaRav Auerbach, yet they’re extremely cautious with the Lakewood Vaad; it seems inconsistent, but we also can’t see what people are trying to say that is getting blocked.
Also, they’re weirdly protective of Kedem grape juice. I wouldn’t even be surprised if this post gets edited just for me evoking the name. I assume it must be a sponsor.
a) separate set of mods for each
b) more than one mod here
c) ?
Little: You’re operating on the false assumption that poskim don’t consult with other experts when necessary.
Wait, Pinchas was Sphardi? Hm, must be a midrash I hadn’t learned yet.
Please, CS, don’t write a response to my last post. Just leave it as it is. If you write back defending all the stuff you said earlier about other rebbeim, it will not help people understand, it will just upset us more.
At a certain point, it just becomes a game of how much you can say about our rebbeim in a tactful enough way that you get away with it, and how much we can say about your shittas and get away with it. That’s why all of these threads end up getting closed.
“yes it is unfortunately a statement of fact that there is a dearth of tzaddikim On THAT LEVEL TODAY.”
Before I just say what all of us would really really like to say in response to this comment, let me try to respond in a calm manner that won’t get you so worked up.
Within the last year, in what I would call rapid succession, we saw the deaths of HaRav Shteinman, HaRav Auerbach, The Vishnitzer Rebbe of Monsey, Mattersdorfer Ruv, and I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m forgetting others as there were just so many. The way you are speaking makes it sound like those are all just no big deal to you. I don’t even think you mentioned it in your “dark times before geula” statements at the beginning.There is no way a person could be a direct follower of all of the rabbis mentioned above, yet the greater frum velt felt the blow of every single one of them. Obviously, each individual will feel more affected by the loss of the rabbi whom he or she follows, but you empathize with your fellow yid.
As a Lubavitcher, it is your right–and expectation even–to consider the Chabad Rebbe the gadol hador of his generation. Therefore, it is expected that you would mourn his death on a more personal level than other great rabbis; this is all fine. However, what is not fine is for you to tell the rest of us that we should mourn more for your rebbe than our own, and that your rebbe’s superiority over our’s is a “statement of fact,” to use your own words.
I don’t know if this has ever been explained to you directly because I think we all assumed it went without saying: our gedolim are to us as your rebbe was to you. When you put them down and claim that they’re inferior, it will invoke the same emotions from us as it would from you if we were to put down the rebbe (if anything even stronger emotions at this time given how many we have lost recently).
jackk, I wouldn’t call that a defense for Trump lying either, but at least he gave an example of Obama possibly lying. You have yet to give one example of Trump lying to the people. You, like the media, just keep repeating it over and over like it’s common knowledge that needs no evidence.
Jackk, I agree with your point that it’s a mistake to vote Republican because you think they’re inherently more moral. That is not why I vote how I do. I will say, I don’t think it’s quite as simple as people liking the Republicans’ stance on abortion and such. There’s a clear pattern of liberals (not necessarily democrat politicians) who seem to want to support anything that was once considered wrong. It’s just change for the purposes of change. I think this is more what people are reacting to. However, I admit it’s more liberal journalists pushing these things than it is politicians.
I also concede that you are right about Obama admitting to some of the flaws of the ACA. When Hillary was running, she said she wanted to make changes to it; Bernie wanted to throw it out altogether. The question is, what happened to the Democratic party’s ability to criticize itself? Why are they now talking like all these things are a godsend and have no flaws?
That was actually a good catch by CTL, which is ironic because he’s a Democrat also, I think.
It’s certain old-guard-type republicans who want to turn those programs into something more like entitlements. Chris Chistie even said in the first primary debate in 2016 that he would have made SS “needs-based,” like welfare. That means those who saved up responsibly for retirement would have been robbed by the government.
Gadol: It’s pretty easy to find articles about ACA causing premiums to rise all over the place. I think Democrats even admitted it in the 2016 election when they were still interested in discussing real solutions. I find it hard to believe that you’ve never met a single person who had their premiums go up after the ACA, and telling people their problems are all mythical is not a good way to get votes (although I realize this does seem to be the Democratic party’s main strategy and it worked in this midterm election somehow).
Sorry about my last two posts, Syag. Classic case of needing to go back and reread a threat later.
I think you interpreted my first comment as a put-down of the most separated communities, and I think I misinterpreted your comments as claims that the sheltered people have it totally blissful with almost no problems compared to others.
I don’t think I did a good enough job making it clear: the arguably most sheltered communities in America (Chassidim) I do respect and admire. But, that is not the lifestyle any of us here were raised with, otherwise we wouldn’t be posting here. I was viewing this thread as purely applying to the Ashkenazi, Litvishe velt (including the MO in this context). I think a lot of us here associate with the sort of centrist-yeshivish derech where a lot of baalhabatim work as lawyers and doctors and people are expected to interact successfully in the business world.
I think the argument for me is on whether or not we’re juggling the priorities correctly. I think parents have decided they need to be more careful with their kids than their parents were with them, which makes perfect sense in the internet era. I think the worst thing (and I hate when people make comments like this here but I’m going to anyway) is for kids to be on internet forums and chats. The children who have grown up with the internet don’t necessarily know how to differentiate between how they speak on the web vs. real life. From my experience with kids, I see that there are clearly many who have not been properly sheltered from the internet in this regard, yet they have been sheltered from the well-rounded educations of yesteryear. What good does this do? You could just say these are isolated cases where the parents failed to shelter properly, but I disagree. I think it’s pretty common.
To just pop back in (hopefully) one last time:
Yes, Syag is correct. The thread could only conclude in one of the following ways, in my mind: 1) somebody actually changes their mind based on a good argument from the other side 2) Nobody changes their mind, but we at least get answers to our questions (we did not get this by CS’ own admission) 3) One side gets definitive proof that it is impossible to debate because all sources will be disrespected and all questions will be unanswered. What CS is claiming is that I always wanted this thread to end with option 3, which is totally not true as you can tell if you go back to the first page (also, I didn’t start this thread). None of us wanted it to end like that, but it seems like almost everyone but CS agrees that it has.Kaiser: I cannot even begin to fathom how you interpreted our words as a denial of the existence of tzaddikim. I am at a loss for words.
P.S. If anyone is only seeing the last page of this thread and seeing CS accuse me of being the one making it about the Rebbe when it was just about Geula, go back to page one and read what she was saying.
The elephant in the room is that the pre-existing conditions clause is one of the reasons everyone else’s healthcare prices are skyrocketing. If it were so simple, why wouldn’t someone have done it a long time ago? Getting rid of the individual mandate would actually make things worse in this regard, so there isn’t a simple solution there, but I’m not hearing on from you jackk. You seem to be just wanting us to feel indebted to the Democrats as though they’ve made insurance problems go away. Millions of people are a lot poorer now thanks to the ACA and your party seems to have no concern or plan to fix it.
Also, Medicare and Medicaid have existed since before a lot of us here were born. I have no idea why you’re talking like today’s Democrat politicians just got them passed.
“From the euphoria of expecting the Geula at any moment, Chabad was greeted with gimmel Tammuz. It seems in general there is a lack of the kind of Torah leadership that existed all the years, although we have Rabbanim today, its not the same…”
It was page one of this thread. The post was numbered 1547553 (I don’t know if that helps locate it at all). I missed it when she originally posted it because those posts were so long nobody could actually read every sentence. OK, I think we have what we need here, guys. We could get a 15 page essay worth of quotes from CS confirming everything we’ve been saying about Chabad from this thread alone, so I think I’m done here. I have wasted way too much time on this thread already. Oh, and RSo, I don’t think any kind of poll is necessary. You can clearly see how we’ve all weighed in on this.
The ability to speak the language of working-class people even if it makes the preppy, ivory-tower-dwellers gag does not show low moral character. I find blue collar people to generally be morally superior even if their language is more coarse sometimes.
Keeping people employed, making sure they keep more of their money, treating our allies better than our enemies, and making sure the hammer of justice comes down hard of law-breakers are all inherently moral traits if you ask me. And, they’re all things the liberals hate about President Trump. There’s a special defensiveness that comes with knowing you’re wrong.
But, no matter, you guys won the day. I agree with jackk and CTL. Conservatives shouldn’t refuse to admit defeat; that’s exactly what we’ve been accusing the liberals of doing since 2016.
“I see they cannot be addressed openly, respectfully and honestly on this forum, which I am fine with.”
Just to specify, that’s because you’re the one refusing to be open and honest, not us. We’ve been 100% transparent.It’s the mods’ choice whether or not they want to clarify, but I would wager that the reason they didn’t let that thread through is because of the duplication rule. You’ve started several threads now with different names that are all “Chabad Explained,” where you say all of the same things over and over and never answer anyone’s questions.
That fact that drives you bonkers to no end is that we actually DO understand Chabad quite well. It is you who wish we didn’t. If one productive thing could come out of all of this, it would be you telling other Lubavitchers “be careful what you say. The rest of the frum world is not as clueless about us as we thought.”
If the only thing Chabad did differently was use the word “demand” instead of “request,” I don’t think there would be that much of a deal. There’s clearly more to the issue than word-choice.
Gadol: When you use the word “Trumpkopf” in all of your posts it makes them sound really intelligent and well thought-out. Keep it up, buddy.
But, what you said about urban vs. rural voters is very true. Even though the democrats gained a bunch of seats, if you look at a map for the congressional vote, it’s like 90% red. There’s just these few major cities that end up controlling the fate of the country.