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Syag:
I assume you refer to the Lubavitch comparison. Yes, there are other issues at hand when Lubavitchers make that statement, but I do believe it’s enough of a problem in itself to try to enforce your leadership on others (even if it weren’t based in Meshichism and kefira).Regarding the issue at hand, from my limited understanding, Eidah Chareidis, Satmar, and obviously Peleg do not accept R. Kanievsky’s shittah on the matter. If the Ger Rebbe and others chose to disagree also, it seems like we would end up with virtually the whole frum world on one side of the issue, and us in a corner by ourselves calling everyone else “baalei machlokes” who refuse to accept our leadership. Doesn’t that sound just a little bit eerily reminiscent of Chabad rhetoric?
Sechel:
It’s not the action, it’s the principle. Saying stuff like “Torah shb’chsav of Chassidus” will already make people a little uneasy. Actually having hanhagas based around it goes a step over the line.
As for the fact that you never said it has more kedushah than a Gemara, you didn’t need to. All you had to say is that it’s OK to put a Chumash on top of a Gemara, but not on top of a Tanya.
I don’t know anything about the issue. I’m one of those Americans who actually stays out of it like you guys seem to want. In fact, the only reason I ever really hear about it is through statements of people saying that we shouldn’t talk about it in America (for people who say we shouldn’t talk about it, they sure love to talk about it).
I have one kasheh for Toi and apushatayid to clarify, and don’t assume I’m trying to be argumentative (even having said that, I have a feeling you will assume so).
One of the statements I see in the Agudah convention highlights article is about how most of the frum olam has accepted Rav Kanievsky’s leadership, and that the real problem isn’t about the draft, it’s about people not accepting him as the undisputed gadol hador.
Toi, when Lubavitchers say that their rebbe is for klal yisroel, you criticize them (as do I). But, here, you seem to ally with someone who wants to enforce singular leadership on everyone. Is it just a question of WHO for you?
Apushatayid, you said on a gadol hador thread, repeatedly, that there is no such thing as one singular gadol hador. Why are you so adamantly agreeing with someone who is saying exactly that now?Please don’t assume I’m just playing stupid, guys. I really don’t know anything about the issue. It just always raises a little concern and curiosity about an issue when you see on side censoring the other, calling them things like “baalei machlokes,” and de-legitimizing their opinions without arguing specifics.
“Halacha dictates that no sefer gets placed on top of a Chumash. Some individuals have a hergesh that dictates that nothing is placed on top of a Tanya, known as the Torah Shebichsav of Chassidus.”
So this is your “explaining it to us like pre-schoolers?” Telling us exactly what we already explicitly said we understood? Saying basically exactly what I predicted you would say?
So, the custom is that the Tanya has more kedushah than the Mishnah or Gemara. The fact that you avoided stating it explicitly as long as you could shows that you realize it’s not something that’s going to go over well with others. Are you going to assume that’s because we’re all just “haters?”
Sechel, I think it is you that is not understanding. You are predictably going to come in and say that “if you understood TT correctly, you would see that the Rebbe never put a Tanya on top of a Chumash.”
We know. The disconnect is that you seem to think that paturs him from the the rest of the issue. It doesn’t.
The only way you guys can dig yourselves out of this one is if you show that it was part of a bigger custom to never put any sefer on top of any other sefer and the fact that we’re discussing Tanya and Chumash is just coincidental choice. If that is the case, you could have easily said so, but it was not said (nor anything like it) in TT’s comment.
“If you can’t understand that, then I’m afraid you need a hard reset.”
Yes, we get from TT’s comment that he didn’t put Tanyas atop of Chumashim, but it also seems he refused to put Chamashim on top of Tanyas. It sounds like he was treating it as a safek as to which one had more kedushah.
The fact that he was choshesh for the actual halachah that the Chumash should go on top does not make it any better that he entertained the possibility of the Tanya carrying the same kedusha as Hashem’s word.
And, either way, if he put Chumashim on top if Mishnayos and other sfarim, but not on top of Tanyas, doesn’t that imply Tanyas are considered greater than those?
Toi, so the objection is that it implied the politicians just persuade the gedolim to say whatever they want? You mean like this:
“Clearly, if they are all for it, and seek to persuade the admorim, then there is a greater chance the council will not object. However, should they paint a picture like last time, the admorim may once again remain adamantly opposed to the current version of the bill.”PM Netanyahu Informs Heads Of Chareidi Factions: No Changes In The Draft Law
What can I say? I was referring to a comment that was now taken down as you can see.
The one you are referencing is not what I was talking about.
YWN is really really making me want to get this newspaper. All these people talking about it just showing up at their door. It never showed up at mine. I’m jealous.
I cannot find the comment by Milhouse to which I was referring, nor can I find his comment that you, Avi, seem to be referring.
I believe it got taken down. Either that or I have started dreaming about the CR and posting based on those dreams. Assuming it did exist and I’m not crazy, it did indeed refer to the shul’s name. I don’t think it was taken down specifically because of the shul; I think the comment also said something inappropriate about a certain gadol. Can mods please confirm that this comment did exist so that I can stop questioning my sanity?
consider it confirmed. And your reasoning is right on the mark. – 29
I have to say, several of those questions were pretty loaded.
Sechel: for #4, you think he should be considered the leader of the generation for everyone, including those who don’t hold of Chabad? I.e. the belief would be that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is actually everyone’s Rebbe, not just Chabad, and Lubavitchers are just the only ones who acknowledge it. If that is the shittah, then I must say that’s hardly any more acceptable than meshichism.
Or, do you just mean that you, speaking from the point of view of a Lubavitcher, would consider him the gadol hador in the same way that a Sphard would say so about HaRav Ovadia Yosef or a Litvak about Rav Shach? If that’s the case, then that’s obviously normal and I don’t see why anyone would consider it controversial.
Milhouse:
I am familiar with that shul. It is also the one Charlie was speaking of. I was hoping nobody would actually evoke its name as its a bit controversial. We’ve danced around talking about it on the CR before, but never gotten that into it, which I think is good.Suffice it to say, nobody should ever bring down proofs from that shul in a discussion of halachah or mesora. I would prefer not to elaborate even though I know you’re going to ask me to.
” a certain person decided were all kofrim BEFORE gimmel tammuz ”
Why does that even matter? If people claim we’re in a state of Geula when none of the criteria are met, they have to expect to be accused of kefira.
I will say, many of the Dati Leumim make basically the exact same claim (as you’ve seen here even on this thread) with far less backlash. I do think Chabad is a little unfairly singled out in that sense.
“Neville C, as far as I know and was always taught, the era of acharonim ends somewhere around 1800. I’ve never heard 19th century authors referred to as acharonim.”
This is not a universal shittah by any means. I’m not sure if any non-Lubavitchers hold of it, but I have never heard of anyone (until you right now) having such a thing as “post-acharonim.” The date cut-off I guess I misunderstood.
“At first you don’t know. It may take some time before you notice that you don’t seem to be where you thought you should be, and you start to wonder a little, to look around you, to try to pick out landmarks, and figure out what is wrong.”
This can be prevented by redefining the entire surrounding world for followers such that it fits the agenda. For examples:
Everyone who kept the old mesora and didn’t change to our’s is the opposition (misnagdim), not sleeping in the sukkah isn’t a heter it’s a chumrah, missing zman hatefilla isn’t a heter it’s a chumrah, everything written after 1800 other than our Rebbe’s works aren’t held of, eating before davening isn’t assur it’s a chumrah, etc.If somebody had never been to LA before, and they landed in Denver, they might be convinced that it’s LA if everyone told them so. How would they know better? Same here. Baalei Teshuvah have no way of knowing that what they’re being indoctrinated into isn’t yiddishkeit. That’s how the system is so frighteningly successful.
Avi, while I agree there’s no Bal Tosef problem with Thanksgiving, it’s not limited to days on which there is no melachah. If people decided to not say tachanun on Thanksgiving and say Hallel, it would be an issue.
Are there any major groups that actually don’t celebrate Thanksgiving? I’ve always just assumed Chassidim don’t since they have a different approach to chukas hagoyim, but I’ve never asked.
I’m also having a trouble getting a reading on the OP. Is this someone at a point in his life where he wants to proclaim his own gezeiras, or someone who actually poskens like a Rav who assurs Thanksgiving, and he wants to spread his shittah to the masses?
“Then are you equating anti-vaxxers with Lev Tahor?”
I wouldn’t have a problem making that comparison, yes. I’ve already called the anti-vaxxers a cult on another thread, so I’m way ahead of you on that. The main difference here is that the anti-vaxxers don’t seem to have a central authority like Lev Tahor and Chabad. It’s not like you were saying Chabad was identical to anti-vaxxers on the other thread, you were just pointing out a striking similarity, same thing here. He’s pointing out that they’re both personality cults, not evaluating/comparing levels of “evil.”
On the other thread he mentions Rabbi Berland’s followers as another example. There is no weight to the claim that he’s speaking of all Chassidim. The fact that he worded in the plural instead of just making a direct analogy to Chabad, I believe, had more to do with being tactful/getting through moderation than with making a blanket accusation.
Because the Zionists based “Israeli Culture” on that of the Arabs rather than that of the Jews. Is that what you were looking for?
I’ll let everyone assume I’m “just trolling.” I actually do love schwarma.
5ish, triggered much?
I don’t have anything against any other philosophies. Sorry not everyone falls for your false narrative that Chabadniks are the victims. You’ll have to go in for a software update and be programmed to use other arguing points.
“Those who take the OP as an anti Lubavich rant (which it obviously is, based on the title) seem to missing that it it’s actually a rant against all (perhaps just most) chassidus”
No it’s not. He has specified on the other thread. It doesn’t seem to be against all Chassidim.
“over the top, ridiculous comparison to Lev Tahor”
How so? Because Chabad is big? Because they have a lot of people and we’ve been forced to be sensitive and pretend to hold of their legitimacy?
These people come across as programmed. You seemed to believe so yourself on other threads. Why suddenly the need to bash someone else who points it out? I don’t agree with this belittling of an ally in order to appear objective or something. Comparing Chabad’s programmed herd mentality to anti-vaxxers = good; comparing their programmed herd mentality to that of Lev Tahor = bad. It’s hypocrisy.Milhouse, you Lubavitchers have apparently created an entirely new construct of “post-acharon” to justify not learning acharonim. The rest of us don’t have this.
Excluding everything after (and presumably also) the Taz means you don’t learn Mogein Avraham, Sharei Teshuvah, Mishnah Berurah, Chasam Sofer, any musar, any other Chassidus, Aruch HaShulchan, Chayei Adam, Ben Ish Chai, or any other acharonim that us consider to be mainstream Yiddishkeit.
P.S. if you’re saying the the age of “acharonim” ends with the Taz, you’re talking about an “era” of at most 100 years. Do you realize how ridiculous that is, or are you just that brainwashed?
edited
Obviously Lernt is serious, and I don’t see why he’s being dragged through the coals. There are legitimate, undeniable similarities, to say nothing of how programmed certain people seem to be from the groups mentioned.
If Lev Tahor gets big enough, will it become wrong to criticize them too? If they set up in towns and colleges across the country to convert people to Lev Tahor, will we have to call that “good?” A cult cannot be beyond criticism just because they convinced enough people to join them.
The only point I can see in being critical is that if we start making thread targeting Chabad instead of just replying to threads made by Lubavitchers, we start to look like the Litvish version of Chabad Forum sites that just bash on everyone. Still, I don’t think Lernt should be singled out just because we want to keep the moral high ground. He brought up specific practices and similarities, not just random, baseless insults.
It would be different, LerntminTayrah. Lev Tahor and Berland’s folks don’t try to hide what they are so there would be less deception/skirting the issues.
Sechel: I don’t mind your answer, and it seems like YeshivaRockstar pretty accurately predicted it. However, you really lose credibility trying to imply that the majority of Chabad is non-Meshichist. That’s a lie and you know it. As nice as it is to see a sane Lubavitcher, it can be frustrating when the first line of defense always has to be “every experience you’ve had with Chabad and every Lubavitcher you’ve ever met is an exception, not the rule.”
“they do learn rishonim and acharonim”
I don’t think rishonim were ever in question here. Even Lev Tahor probably learns Rashi.
But, which acharonim do you think Chabad learns from outside of Lubavitch? When they say they’re learning Shulchan Aruch, they actually mean Shulchan Aruch HaRav. If you read into Milhouse’s comment, you can see that they don’t learn the classic halachic meforshim, which were all written on the real Shulchan Aruch.
Simply go to the other threads and see how often they can bring proofs from non-Lubavich acharonim: a whopping 0.
“Rabbbeinu Tam doesnt accept Rashi, quite often. Doesnt detract from the greatness of either.”
Who said it did? Or, who said anything even similar to this with contemporary names?
Chassidim, Sphardim, and even Israeli Litvaks commonly poskened differently than Reb Moshe. I’m not saying this detracts from his greatness, or from their respect. But, you can’t really base the entire point on the assertion that everyone followed Reb Moshe’s psaks regardless of community because it’s just not true.
CS: Your only interest in being their “friend” seems to be so that you can have first-hand experience and give credibility to your claims of their inferiority. Do you think they would still call you “friend” if they read what you wrote here?
Sechel: I agree you shouldn’t have to condemn Meshichism over and over. I think the reason you’re seeing it come up for you so much is because the world is kind of baffled as to how there can be someone who admits to all the problems in Chabad, but still chooses to associate with that community. Why are there sane people who haven’t left yet?
This makes sense. We might as well consolidate the only 2 topics the CR wants to talk about into 1 thread for convenience.
Did you hear the recent study that learning Chassidus other than Chabad can lead to autism? Does that change your mind at all? I’m not going to provide any source, but why would I lie?
“You aren’t wrong, but you are a little misleading. I don’t know of any other frum system that learns their guru’s writings to the exclusion of others.”
Please see the Lubavitch concept of being “bittul to the Rebbe.” It mandates exactly this.
CS: I would recommend you step back and try to remember why you started going off on tirades against Satmar in the first place. Nobody here has claimed to be a Satmar, so you can’t claim self-defense or some such thing. You keep going through this weird cycle of trying to explain stuff, then filibustering with non answers, then snapping as a result of criticism and letting out an offensive Freudian slip about another community, then becoming apologetic, and finally rinse and repeat. We just keeping going through this cycle over and over until you’ve exhaustively bashed on every non-Chabad community in existence.
Seriously, think about it: why did you bring Satmar up in the first place? You can’t say to prove that Chabad is better, because you claim you aren’t trying to do that. There was no reason whatsoever. It certainly isn’t proving any points about ahavas Yisroel, if you were still on that. It’s very clear for all of us to see, you have been instilled with/taught to have massive amounts of hatred towards other communities (who have done nothing wrong to you probably) and also taught to keep that hatred just between you and other Lubavitchers. As a result of keeping it bottled up, it takes little to no prodding on a forum like this to get you to boil-over and make baseless claims and insults towards undeserving targets.
This thread has really convinced me that there is an “indifference crisis” in the Orthodox community. There should be efforts to deprogram, not allow more and more yidden to become brainwashed under the guise of kiruv.
Lol, OK I really want this thread to stay alive just because of how angry it’s making apushatayid. I have nothing against the man or whatever point he’s trying to get across. I just find it weirdly hilarious how someone can develop such strong feelings against a totally mundane CR thread that has pretty much yet to go in any controversial direction.
DaMoshe: Like I said, there are MO people like you who respect that process. Do you believe the part of the MO that ignores halachos like tznius are strict to ask shailos on the arbitrary parts of the halachah they do choose to follow?
“You believe that there is a necessity to go beyond the Shul Rabbi. Why?”
Most shul Rabbis aren’t poseks. They can answer a shailah that just results from a congregant not knowing the Mishnah Berurah well enough or something, but they can’t actually posken. There are also certain areas of expertise that not all rabbis have. For example, there could be an area in which there are hundreds of people with smichah, but only 1 or 2 are qualified to check bedika cloths (sorry for using that as an example, guys, but this is a common one). There are official, different levels of smichah as well, “shul rabbi” being the lowest. This isn’t anything invented by modern chareidim; this is a system that’s existed for centuries. Anyone who knows more about this than I, please weigh in.
As for your story with Rabbi X and such, you do understand that what you’ve described is a dynamic of the MO that the chareidi world is very critical of, right? What that system inevitably leads to is people thinking “if I’m just going to keep going to rabbis until the get the meikel answer I want, why not just cut out the middle man and be meikel without asking the shailah since the end result is the same?”
I think “gadol hador” is community specific. I don’t think there is such a thing as someone who can relate to all communities; it’s impossible. Even the names you mention like Reb Moshe are not true examples of this. He, for example, was not claiming to posken for chassidim and sphardim.
The OP stated:
“I would like to know who the ywn coffee room members consider the gadol haddar of America”He wasn’t asking for an absolute. He was clearing asking for people’s opinions. Why are you getting to bent out of shape about this, apush?
I’m all for making threads more controversial and interesting, but this is just sloppy work. Calling a thread “irrelevant” over and over is just kind of redundant and boring. If you don’t find it interesting or pertinent to you then just stop clicking on it.
“he – and lehavdil we – are suffering through since Gimmel Tammuz?!”
Whatever we can do to keep you suffering, please don’t hesitate to let us know 🙂
There are actually codified halachos for setting out on a sea-voyage before Shabbos. I don’t understand why no such gezeirah has been made for air-travel. Maybe it has, and I just haven’t heard of it.
“YR sechel and his circle of friends dont use iggros.”
I.e. the anti-meshichists… As opposed to your circle: the meshichists.“Just haven’t found other chassidim yet like those of which you speak who study their own Rebbe’s Chassidus and view their Rebbe like we do ours.”
You never will because you refuse to see it because you’re brainwashed. How is this not getting through to you? You really expect us to believe you met significant amounts of Satmars and none of them learned Divrei Yoel? I might believe that you THINK that, but I don’t believe it’s actually true. As far as “viewing their Rebbe like you do,” yeah… as we’ve said, the rest of the frum velt poskens that the way you view your Rebbe is kefira, so you’ll have trouble finding that. Were you under the impression that all Chassidim believe their Rebbe to be moshiach?“Here you find many regular yidden whose “hisnagdus” is mostly due to ignorance (of classic sources on moshiach and Geula, of the Halachos on how to treat a Rebbe etc etc)”
Did you think this was a private message to TT that the rest of us couldn’t see? Or did you just think we would be totally fine with your assertion that we’re totally ignorant of the halachah and need Chabad to educate us? Are we on crazy pills or something? The world is not a secular college campus! There are frum people that know stuff. Many of whom might know more than you. Get over it! Stop trying to be mekarev people who don’t need it.Sarah:
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to accuse you of lying. You had said “not so unbelievable,” so I was just pointing out that whether or not the story is even surprising depends on the shailah.Given the context, I don’t think its so unbelievable either. What was the point the story was supposed to illustrate again?
apush:
“Why is the concept “gadol hador” even relevant? do we find the tannoim trying to determine who was the gadol hador? amoroim? did the baalei tosfos ask who was greater the rashbam or his younger brother rabbeinu tam? did it even enter their mind to ask? that this is a topic of conversation is ludicrous .”Then don’t click the thread. I think the people attacking this thread on some kind of imaginary moral grounds are the ones taking it too seriously, not the other way around. It’s just a curiosity. Would you rather us discuss who the most popular celebrity in pop-culture is?
“1. He did not grow a beard.
2.The story is true — and not so unbelievable.”There aren’t enough details for me to assess the likelihood. If his shailah was, “should I grow a beard and peyes,” then, yes, it is very believable. If his shailah was, “XYZ happened do this dish, is it still kosher?” Then it’s a little harder to believe. However, I’m assuming he went to a Chassidishe Rebbe with some kind of generalized, spiritual guidance (non-halachic) question and was taken aback when the rabbi gave an actual halachic shittah; is that what it was?
For what the OP meant by “gadol hador,” I think it can be pretty simply explained as “who is the Reb Moshe of today?”
For what I said about the MO, let me try to lay out an imaginary flow chart. First of all, there is a massive portion of the MO (I believe the majority, but you would know better) who simply never ask shailos ever. Clearly this thread doesn’t apply to them. Of those remaining, a significant portion may ask shailos to their local, MO shul rabbi and be content with his on-the-spot psak without any proofs from major poskim. This thread also doesn’t apply to that group. Finally, you are left with a tiny niche in the MO that actually asks shailos regularly, and expects the psak’s to be well-based in halachic reasoning, and escalated to more experienced poskim if need be.This niche chooses to self-identify as MO, even though for all intensive purposes they aren’t. We can’t be expected to use this niche as the basis of all generalizations we make about the MO just to spare feelings.
It’s been boring for a long time, but I don’t know that I would call it nit-picky.
I’m kind of bored of the anti-vaxxer stuff too, though. Someone needs to start an interesting thread, otherwise I might be forced to get a real life.
Hm, so that’s what greasy means; I had it backwards.
So, whats the name for those yeshivas that are barely bigger than a house, don’t hold their bochrim to any specific standards, aren’t MO, but aren’t real yeshivas, yet they call themselves yeshivas?
There has to be a term for what I’m talking about. How else would we differentiate between those and [for lack of a better term] real yeshivas?
I imagine your friend refused to grow a beard anyway (assuming that story is actually true)?
I’m not sure what place the MO has in this discussion. If the words of rabbonim are meaningless to you unless you like what they’re saying then you have no stake in the concept of “gadol hador.”
Non Political:
I don’t mind you trying to see CS’s points and/or help her out, but why, of all places, did you decide to come in at this point and defend that alleged statement? Even in the imaginary case you mentioned, which is completely improbable, why would he have to use the word “snag?”
I could have easily been convinced that the statement was never made. For once, CS could have actually swept something under the rug, given a non-answer like “that story never happened,” and I would have been OK with it. Because, truthfully, I find it a bit dubious that a shliach ever actually made the statement in question. I think all of us are a little more horrified by it being justified than the story itself, which was just hearsay.
“Yes I think in extreme 2 such a statement could be justified”
Just as a reminder, this was the statement which you find justifiable:
“it’s better to be a frei yid who holds the rebbe’s moshiach than a snag who’s frum.”If a black person provoked a shliach would it justify using racial slurs?
CS for your response to Yeshiva Rockstar:
What you’re implying is that if it were “extreme 2,” it would be OK that the shliach said it? The point was not that he said something offensive; it’s that he actually believed something like that.
Also, even if it were “extreme 2,” I would say there was context to the context. On this thread, for example, it feels like the only way to get straight-forward, honest answers out of you people is to let it get to the point where you get angry at us. Otherwise, we keep getting 5 page essays that don’t answer our questions. Your shluchus dodging techniques are what is escalating the arguments, not dampening them.
It’s not nostalgia, it’s realism. What you’re suggesting is that we ignore the majority of Jewish history and replace it with an invented, Zionist culture (invented by open-Atheists, by the way). Also, there is no logical reason your arguments wouldn’t equally apply to minhag sphard. The only reason the Zionist Comrades preferred it was because they were self-loathing Ashkenazim, as I imagine you probably are.
Loud opinions are not strong opinions. If you felt secure in the logic of what you are saying, you wouldn’t feel the need to spout it on every single thread that has nothing to do with it.
Go ahead, “forgive me” like you did DY for pointing out the fact that you made a machlokes out of a perfectly innocent thread to further your own wacko agenda that has its own wacko, bigoted fan-club.
Lololololol.
OK, that’s now my favorite part of this whole thread.
“I have not berated anyone”
Oh really? Here are some quotes from you:
“others who preferred to keep things under wraps or else don’t even know what their own predecessors believed because they don’t learn Toras Hachassidus.”“It isn’t my fault if there are people who call themselves Chassidim but don’t learn Chassidus and to them Hasidism means three types of kugel, a fur hat, shiny jacket, and sometimes you go to the tish. ”
“the disputants held that Toras HaChassidus and Avodas HaChassidus is for tzaddikim, and its enough for others to be inspired by the charisma of the tzaddik, his miracles etc. and for their avoda to be elevated through that relationship.”
Just because you state your Chabad propaganda falsehoods as facts (and maybe actually believe them) doesn’t make them anything other than pure sinas chinam.
The argument was basically like this:
5ish: All the bad things about Chabad are just the same in other Chassidusim as you can see in classic texts XYZ.
Me: Even if this were theoretically true, in practice everyone can see these problems are worse in Chabad. Also, even on a textual level, Chabad is not like other Chassidus as you can see in texts ABC.
5ish: I don’t care about texts ABC, I only care about the texts I brought because they help my argument. I never said other Chassidim weren’t different. There are differences like they learn less, they ride on their rebbe’s coattails, they’re inferior to Chabad, etc. See! I admitted there are differences thus proving my objectivity!
Your only possible defense is that maybe you truly didn’t understand my issues with Chabad. I don’t think this is actually the case. I think you are just terrible, hateful people who cannot be reasoned with and will work in insults towards other communities in every argument you make.
CS, the Freidiker Rebbe’s impact on the renaissance of yiddishkeit in post war America is negligible. Not all building of yiddishkeit involves reaching out to totally frei yidden. The resources and communities we all take for granted in the US were almost all established with the help of the gedolim you guys hate so much. Crown Heights is just one of them, and a comparatively small one at that.
I stand by my original counter point; I don’t see it as any less applicable now.
He didn’t really make any argument back. He just basically berated all Chassidim as though they never learn. As usual, I see you aren’t going to try to dissociate from the hate-mongering Chabadskers, CS. What a surprise…