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“ZionGate, what did I say that got you riled up?”
That fact that you didn’t say anything at all on this thread just really rubbed him the wrong way. It’s just the vibe. Like, are you too holy to get involved in this thread? Do you think you’re better than us or something? Jeesh, you’re riling me up too now. How dare you?
😉
“Joseph asks people for some very open thoughtful opinions and then comes back with extensive essays why they’re wrong.”
I knew it was going to end up going in that direction. I used to respect his trolling, but it’s gotten a bit predictable. Maybe it’s just because I’ve been around long enough now. It seems now like a sort of sad desperation for confirmation bias on decisions he’s made (like living in NYC) that he’s no longer fully confident of.
Don’t get me wrong, I display the same kind of behavior in the CR myself, but I don’t have a reputation to uphold.
“The Jewish community also considers Farrock Away to be in-town. (I know Farrock Away is technically in the 5 boroughs, but the Jewish Community generally considers it to be outside of NYC).”
Wait, let me try to follow this… Far Rockaway is truly part of NYC, BUT the Jewish community considers it to not be NYC even though it is, BUT the Jewish community considers the people from Far Rockaway to be New Yorkers even though they don’t consider Far Rockaway New York even though it is. Did I get it right?
“Sh”Tz came on the scene (again, I’m not comparing, just illustrating a point)”
Why not compare? It’s an identical situation.
Obviously the phrase technically means the 5 boroughs, but the Jewish community has definitely come to include 5-Towns folks as in-towners.
It’s the same process as being an anti-vaxxer: total denial of all logic in favor of being part of a social club of like-minded weirdos. Part of me wants to say that if the yeshivish community wants to be so stupid, then they deserve it. But, the individual girls don’t deserve to suffer from the mistakes of prior generations.
How is this still going on? I thought the CDC sent a fruit basket?
“The population growth rates being thrown around here, however, are inflated by an order of magnitude, and it is highly unlikely that a 2-3 year marriage age gap within this growth regime alone is the primary reason men get significantly more shidduch opportunities than women.”
It’s probably the only reason. People have created other reasons for those who respond better to emotionalist theories. The charedi population is actually growing very rapidly, but even a moderate growth rate would cause people to take notice.
It also depends what you consider a significant number of singles. If there were 1,000 girls in a given year who couldn’t find a match, would you consider that significant within the context of the American yeshivish community? Would you consider it outlandish to assume that that community grows by over 1,000 people over the span of 3 years?
Aaaand, there it is. Your predictable catch-all response any time someone makes a point to which you don’t know how to respond. You have no way to debunking the facts, so you just make petty attempts to appear to maintain the moral high-ground. Do you really think anyone doesn’t see through this charade?
As far as I’m concerned, you’re no batter than a common internet troll in this context. You come in and make baseless claims contrary to reality, and then pretend you have no responsibility to back the claims up because your on an enlightened-plane above everyone else.
” Im happy to exchange opinions with you”
Clearly not.“Either put down the machine gun and have a conversation”
What would you like me to say, in your ideal world? You are claiming to sympathize with victims of a phenomenon that you don’t believe exists, which is impossible to do. You are claiming that you can have population growth without latter generations being more populated than former, which is impossible. This isn’t about “opinions.” If somebody came along and said “1+1=5, and anyone who says otherwise has no emunah,” that’s not called an opinion; that’s just called being wrong. If you spout stuff that is factually incorrect, you can’t just claim persecution when people call you out on it.“you imply that anyone who is willing to face the painful reality”
So, those of us who admit that the shidduch crisis is real are “not willing to face the painful reality?” One simple question, what do you think we would have to gain by spreading a rumor that there’s a shidduch crisis? Who would benefit from this giant conspiracy and how?“the world isn’t a room”
It’s called an analogy…” your designation of a number is arbitrary whether you like it or not.”
Obviously it was arbitrary. The point has nothing to do with which numbers are chosen. The point is that, with population growth, the number of people born in say 2018 will exceed the number born in 2014. You can’t possibly deny this unless you’re delusional. You can whine about a generation’s self-absorption all you want, but it isn’t going to make males spawn out of nowhere. The only solution is to stop marrying at an age gap.“that’s just too disgusting of a comment to even give answer to.”
If you deny the entire issue, then how can you claim to care about the victims? Would it be disgusting to say a Holocaust denier doesn’t care about Holocaust victims? You won’t respond because you can’t. You’re couching your inability to counter the argument behind a moral superiority complex, and it’s not working.“HASHEM WILL SEND HIS/HER ZIVUG TO THEM. AND THE PERSON IS ALWAYS HAPPY WITH NO WORRIES”
OK, so let me give you a test at risk of being accused of being a total kofer. You have a room of 50 boys and 60 girls. How do they all get married without 10 single girls leftover?
There are more girls in a later generation than there are boys in an earlier one; that’s just fact when you have a growing population. This is what those of you in denial do: to compensate for your embarrassing lack of understanding of basic statistics, you imply that everyone who sees the reality doesn’t have enough emuna. I presume that includes the victims of the shidduch crisis whom you obviously don’t care about because they just get in the way of your denial.
“this kind of damaged goods mentality becomes a self-fulfilling reality.”
It doesn’t matter how true or false what you’re saying is. You could treat the girls like royalty and tell them to never stress about marriage and it wouldn’t make any difference. As long as there is an age gap and a growing population, there will be a shidduch crisis. I’m not defending the problem you’re describing, but you seem to be totally swearing off the reality as thought it’s brought about by emotions and social shaming, which is completely reductionist. Making the girls accept their loneliness is not the answer. We have made a society that forces a growing percentage of the female population into a lifetime of singleness. If anything, they should be more loud and emotional about how they feel about the situation.
Joseph: “Including by the MO at least as much as by the Litvish.”
Are there statistics that show the MO age gap is just as bad, on average, as the yeshivish? I find that dubious just from anecdotal evidence, but it could be true. Either way, their population isn’t growing nearly as fast, so it wouldn’t be as noticeable.Gadol: I agree that the word crisis is overused, but I’m not entirely sure you understand what it refers to here. I don’t want to be presumptuous, but judging from the CR alone, it’s probably not something so applicable to your community.
It refers specifically to a problem in communities that marry men off to women several years younger. This produces a mathematically-provable certainty that there will be single women leftover in any growing population (which the charedi population is). Having emunah is one thing, but claiming that a room of say 50 men and 100 women could produce no singles with no polygamy is not emunah, it’s just shtuyot.
Yeah, I’m fine with people not liking Trump, but I’m really not understanding those of you who are talking like he’s “suddenly become unhinged.” He hasn’t changed a bit since he’s been in the public sphere.
If by “save his presidency” you mean make good on his promises like building the wall, overturning Obamacare, overturning the Iran deal, etc. then maybe not. It’s suspicious how he waited until the democrats had control of Congress to start caring about these things. He really doesn’t need to do a good job to win reelection, however, as long as the democratic party implodes again and rigs a primary for someone whom everyone hates (eg. Elizabeth Warren).
“I agree. It’s an exaggeration to make a point.”
On the surface it seems so, but why bring the Yeshiva funding into as if to suggest that people vote Democrat in order to get Yeshiva funding when it’s the exact opposite?
It seems like the OP was criticizing both: a) people who indiscriminately vote democrat, and b) people who vote based only of the issue of Yeshiva funding. Those are not the same group. If this confusion was intentional, then I think it would fall under the definition of “trolling.”
Hey… buddy… you realize Joseph isn’t the one looking for a new community, right?
” it pretty obvious that he had it done out of vengence.”
Dang right! And, there’ll be a lot more where that came from if you don’t give in to all of my demands!“I still cant figure out how you pulled it off”
A simple distributed denial of service attack. You really should look into getting better protection.“And I bet that had you rewritten your post minus the personal insults instead of complaining about censorship, you could have had your comebacks to CTLAWYER posted already.”
You’re assuming the post was worse than it was. It was abjectly less insulting than nearly everything CTL has written. The mods are trying to lead you to believe it was worse than it was. CTL had claimed that if someone had read his posts from years of being a CR user, they would see how great and accepting he is of other socio-economic classes. Apparently, any dispute of this assertion is a “personal attack.” Theoretically, he worded an argument in such a way that it didn’t break forum rules, but any counterargument would. That would be genius, but I think it’s much more likely that the mods are just biased and bad at their jobs.
Let me try it: I know more about all of these things you guys are talking about on this thread. If you go back and read years of my posts, you would all see how much smarter I am than all of you. (Now, let’s see if they block anyone who tries to dispute me).
“Totally irrelevant to YWN.”
Hmm… I see no reason why there would be ulterior motive to claim that…“I don’t think a single one of us has views similar in anyway to CTL.”
Hmm… I see no reason why there would be ulterior motive to claim that…“I do recall CTL posting some time ago about being contacted by someone on YWN for advice on something pertaining to law”
Bingo. There had to be something. I’m glad you’re able to see the bias without being able to see the original comment I made that sparked all of this, which was relatively tame. They’ve since gone back and unblocked a bunch of my more angry comments without unblocking the original, which is cute of them to use their powers in that way.
I’m fine with private sites like YWN and twitter censoring as they see fit, as long as they say why. Eg. people might be censored here for expressing anti-Torah ideas because this is a Jewish site. Just like this rule is out in the open, they should have to disclose of their various other favoritism’s.
“Not every conversation is a debate. And the goal isn’t always to “win.””
Notice how I never said the word debate or anything synonymous with it in the quote to which this was replying. I’m not sure how you read that as having anything to do with debates or winning.“Jeb Bush got two terms as Florida governor, and his brother two terms as President. Not shabby for a pointless approach.”
Quite shabby given that they were horrible at what they did and continue to this day to prove that they don’t care (and never cared) about their constituents.“That’s a cop-out that would render the entire concept of onas devarim meaningless.”
No more meaningless than applying it to anyone who personally offends you with a different opinion. Real men can take it and don’t beg for censorship whenever they can’t take back what they dish out. “Copping-out” would look more like throwing insults out and then hiding behind a wall of like-minded moderators. Am I the one doing that here?“I have relatives on both extremes of the political spectrum, and have had very interesting conversations with them all.”
By interesting, you mean conversations where both sides end up feeling deep-seated anger, but cover it up in the name of civility as is the custom in the phony world of intellectualism.
Anything you say is going to offend someone somewhere. The way you’re looking at this would mean everyone taking a vow of silence for all eternity. This idea that you can word arguments in this magical, intellectual way that won’t offend anyone and will be healthy for for the world is a total myth that only exists in the upper tier of American society. Most of us (deplorable rednecks who still know how to apply common sense) have gravitated towards the results-based approach like that of Trump (or Ocasio-Cortez on the inverse), and away from the pointless approach of Jeb Bush types that seems to be rooted in getting 90-year-olds to think, “hmm, he talks nice… What a nice young man he is…”
You had to risk offending me just now by responding to my last comment, right? I could have gotten really upset at you for disagreeing and accusing me of a aveira, right? Does that mean you did an issur? No. There is not document or scripture that guarantees a human right to “not be offended.” That would cripple mankind.
You mean running red-lights, cutting people off, passing in no-passing-zones, etc.?
Some of CTL’s greatest hits on this thread, if you’ll allow me to directly quote posts that were allowed through and are still up, even if it’s doesn’t serve your holy agenda:
“Ask more stupid questions and prove what a fool you are”“If he doesn’t like the Dems in control in the northeast move to the flyover zone. I ‘m sure he’ll find the red necks very tolerant of his ilk.”
And, of course, posts that mods decided has to get the last word:
“I am far from elitist, my social circles cross economic and ethnic divides.”None of the stuff in my original response was anywhere near as bad as these quotes from him. I’d love to see these corrupt mods explain why those posts weren’t personal insults, but mine were.
“If that is not something you can abide by, you willl have to find a different forum [sic]”
I would love to. Care to point me to a competitor? I’ve been wanting out of this bougie yacht club for years.” and even to eat in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres!”
Lubavitchers actually do eat in the Sukkah on Smini Atzeres.
“I do not understand why you think it is okay to begin with.”
Maybe because you set a precedent by letting certain people habitually get away with it?
By the way, the enemy thing was a joke.
On a separate note (and in a post separate from the other than will inevitably be taken down by “my enemy”), I always have and always will use this tone in political threads. I do not live under the disillusion that we all need to have “healthy discussion” with each other. You’re never going to change anyone’s mind doing that. It’s much more fun and even productive to just hurt the feeling of everyone you don’t like. Case and point, look at how easy it was for the OP to get CTL to show his true colors? The democrats always deny the allegation that they’re disconnected from the working-class world, and then one minor trolling post can get them to completely expose themselves. You guys, especially this mod, have to catch up to the world in which we’re living. It’s the Trump era. The phony “civil discussions” we’ve wasted our time with for years where we pretend to respect each other are obsolete.
The fact that you guys have turned it into an actual political discussion proves nothing. The fact remains, this started out as completely personal, non-logical arguments from CTL as he so often does. As usual, they let these through.
Basically, in summary, he is allowed to assert that he has more value as a human being thanks to his wealth. We are not allowed to assert that this isn’t true.
Notice how my posts are getting past moderation and then later being taken down by the 1 mod that has a vendetta against me because he’s in love with CTL? That seems fair to you?
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They are not without basis and you know it. CTL immediately responded to this thread by attacking the OP’s intelligence and then calling groups of the country rednecks. He was not censored. We get censored to trying to fact-check his constant lies.
Just fess up: you’re either a liberal who wants CTL to get the last/only word on everything regardless of whether he’s making real points or not, or, option B, he has something to do with sponsored content somewhere on YWN so he’ll get the same full protection package that Kedem wine gets.
And, P.S., it’s not out of character either. You’ve probably let me say much worse things about Lubavitchers and MO’s without any backlash. It just seems worse to you this time because you’re the subject of the criticism apparently.
edited
“There seems to be no clear and explicit definition of what is meant by a “heimeshe hashgacha””
I don’t know what’s giving people that idea. Some people don’t fully trust the mainstream, MO hechsherim like the OU. This doesn’t mean they wholesale boycott the OU like we all do with triangle-k, they just want an extra label from a chareidi organization slapped on certain products in order to signal that that particular product can be trusted. Sometimes it might imply extra supervision for that particular supplier, sometimes I imagine it’s just a label to say “it’s okay to hold by the OU’s supervision on this specific product.”
If you go to a grocery store in NYC, it’s very clear what people mean by “heimish hechshers.” To your credit, I think if I had never been to a grocery store in NYC, I would have no idea what people were talking about either.
“Editing instead of deleting is a favor not an obligation.”
Your complaints are silly, without basis and fortunately quite out of character.
And why not let through the part of the post that was actually about the topic? Because you love CT’s crazy leftist ideas and don’t want to let anyone see the opposition?
Editing instead of deleting is a favor not an obligation.
So, let me get this straight…
If you don’t like his points feel free to address them. And don’t pretend that that is what you were “blocked” from saying. The rest of your comment doesn’t warrant a response.
On second thought, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence of a significant Jewish community in Aberdeen other than that one shul.
Milhouse: What’s your point within the context of this thread? The OP explicitly said he isn’t looking for an MO community. Saying stuff to the likes of “but, these specific MO communities are so great!” or “but, there are people who call themselves Chareidi and do bad stuff” doesn’t add anything to the discussion.
Other than being pointless, your comparison is bad for the reasons Joseph stated. The MO and MO communities cause otherwise religious people to find ways to violate the halachah and have it accepted by those around them. At least the Conservative/Reform movements basically just serve as a vessel for non-religious people to meet, since their congregants probably wouldn’t be frum otherwise. The MO is actually directly causing frum people to be less religious. Before you try a strawman and say “are you actually saying that the MO does more damage than the Conservative/Reform movements,” let me save you some time: yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying and I’ve always said it openly here.
Anywho, back to the actually topic.
Yoyo: it sounded like Aberdeen was less than an hour from Lakewood, so couldn’t you just send you kids to school in Lakewood?“So according to Kalei Hapsak, the Halacha would be that dancing and singing is forbidden even for Ashkenazim.”
Why do you say “even?” We do posken it’s assur.“Answer: I still think that our Maalos outweigh our one or two “Limmudei Zchus”.”
Like what? All of Chabad’s unique minhagim are extreme kulos. The chumras are just standard Chassidishe practices done by other groups that don’t also have the kulos.So let them be offended. We shouldn’t have to skirt serious issues and put stumbling blocks before a guy making an important life decision just to spare the feelings of a few insecure people who want to be meikel all the time.
To the OP:
As we’ve said on the CR before in regards to national hechsherim: internet forums are not bound by libel restrictions that would keep us from openly discussing which hechsherim are “bad.” Unlike the CRC, we don’t have a publish a massive list of “good” hechshers and leave everyone to do the math when we all know people just want to know which ones are bad.
My point is, for efficiency’s sake, why not invert the question. Which hachshers in this variety do people not like?