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I’m 100% fine with saying we’re meikel on beards while Chabad is machmir.
So, 2 questions: What more do you want from us? Is there any topic where you’re willing to admit to being more meikel, or do you have to redefine everything such that you’re always the machmir one?
Burich Hashem, the home page waited until mid-late afternoon on Purim day to launch the War on Purim this year. Hopefully most ehrlichen yidden were already fully inebriated in the mitzvah.
A Freilichin Purim! May the following years continue to lessen in the opposition to doing what’s right!
“In that regard, the Oberlanders who became Chasidim are no different than the Yekkes who became Litvaks.”
Um, no. Unless by become Litvak you strictly mean people who started following minhag haGra. If you’re just talking about Yekkes going from being more modern to more yeshivish, that is in no way comparable to a mesorah change.
“How does being a simple erlich Ashkenazic Jew these days fly less than being Chasidic?”
I don’t think Gaon was condoning it, just pointing out the social trend.“If halacha allows but doesn’t require abortion (which I agree with Avram is a very rare case)”
It still doesn’t seem like you understand Avram’s “rare case.” He was talking about where the halachah would require it, but the medical professionals would NOT allow it if there were laws limiting abortion. I think this would be not only rare, but non-existent. If the doctor says it’s not necessary, the halachah isn’t going to require it.The case of the halachah “allowing” abortion is something you’ve invented. This is pikuach nefesh, the proper lashon is “require.” We aren’t talking about a birth control heter.
As much as I’ve been playing devil’s advocate and defending the liberal posters here on this thread, I have to dissociate a bit now. I was defending the belief that political ideology shouldn’t be based solely on this issue. Those who are b’shittah in favor of abortion do not represent the Torah’s view and have likely been adversely influenced by secular, socially liberal colleagues.
Nobody argues that families shouldn’t have the right to pull the plug on someone in a vegetative state in the political realm. That’s a purely religious discussion; I don’t think any significant portion of the goyish world views that issue the same way we do.
Some issues are no longer on the table politically as precedents have already been set. I would imagine that liberal Jews would say that after Rowe V Wade, there is no point in arguing about abortion in the political sense. It’s not an entirely bad point because neither party is actually talking about a wholesale ban on abortion.
“The Catholic pope is viewed as a liberal.”
But, he’s anti-abortion. So, I guess you are willing to admit a person can be liberal and still anti-abortion. What’s the shailah, then?Lit:
Your points are all historical. The fact that one of the only contemporary examples you can bring is the Mt. Kisco “old minyan” should tell you something. If you go back far enough, all chassidim davened Ashkenaz. Different groups probably switched at different points.Anyway, ignoring the Chassidishe angle, Mt. Kisco is not a run of the mill Litvish yeshiva. Your original claim was that “Oberlanders” are definitively Litvish.
Ashkenazim aren’t allowed to be proud of our mesorah, it’s racism. You should know that Joseph. You thought there was no PC in the frum world?
“Although for a Torah Jew -they are the same – life is life.”
This is not true. Abortion and euthanasia do not fall under the same issur. I’m not justifying either, but there are important differences when it comes to the application of pikuach nefesh between a fetus and a partially or fully born baby.Curiosity:
I’m a Trumpist Conservative. I doubt CTL thinks particularly highly of me or my opinions; the only reason it seems like he and I are on the same team on this particular thread is because I’m bothered by the way you guys are going about this. I don’t expect to ever convince you otherwise, but I’ll make my point anyway: the way “liberal” is defined in your conservative bubble is not how it is defined in the liberal bubble or anywhere else. Certain religious-right conservatives basically define their entire political affiliation on the issue of abortion and they assume liberals are just the inverse. Statistically that’s not true, and clearly it’s not true. If it makes life easier to define all American politics on the subject of abortion, that’s fine for you, but we don’t all have to accept that definition, and the assertion that it’s the “colloquial” definition is just baseless. Case and point, would you consider the current Catholic pope a conservative by your definition even though he’s basically an unabashed communist?“Anyone can make a Minyan in Lakewood”
Yeah? How do you think it got to be that way? Do you think Lakewood started off as a Chabad House?I don’t understand how a non Lubavitcher can guzzle so much of the Chabad cool-aid that they actually think it’s more miraculous for a Chabad house to service a handful of chilonim in some random town than it is for a Litvish or Chassidishe gadol to be able to build a gleaming frum metropolis in rural NJ or NY. How can you think hundreds of failed outposts is a greater service than a handful of successful communities?
I know it’s anecdotal, but I have never heard anyone use the word “oberlander” outside of internet forums. I’ve met true Oberlanders and they either describe themselves as Heimish, Chassidishe (even when they aren’t), or Hungarian (even when they aren’t from within the boarders of modern Hungary).
DY:
I do not merit to understand how tachanun, which poskim make a point of saying is a reshus not a chiyuv, would take precedence over chazaras hashatz once you’re in the business of deleting stuff for bitul Torah. Even with the explanation you gave (which I’m sure is correct), how could that really apply in America? Unless the beis medrash had a “no aino buckis allowed” sign, there could always be someone who needs it.Judaism considers it a lie when a random guy claims to be moshiach without bringing about anything resembling redemption. Chabad/Christianity argue with Judaism on this concept.
“In fact, never before you posted your comment have I associated the term Mizrachi with kipa sruga Jews.”
Then you’re very out-of-touch and prone to having many a confusing conversation with Israelis.“Only during th reshonim time is where the Jews migrated to ashkenaz countries …..I believe”
Let’s just say this were true, so what? Wouldn’t you want your migration to have happened later rather than earlier if you were claiming your mesora was closer to what was done in Eretz Yisroel?
Also, there’s no evidence of Jews living in Carthaginian Spain. The communities were probably not there until at least Roman times (maybe you weren’t claiming otherwise; it wasn’t clear). The reason we call places like Persia “Sphardic” (which means Spanish) is because many Spanish communities fled to places like that after the expulsion of 1492. None of this has any bearing of mesora authenticity; I’m not getting involved with that. The point is, Jews living under Cyrus the great were not “Sphardim.” There’s no connection between the ancient Persian exile and the 20th century Persian communities.Jackk:
It’s a Torah issur for a goy to get an abortion. There’s even room to say it’s assur for them in life-threatening situations because of the lack of mitzvah of pikuach nefesh.
Also, the halachah does not exactly define a fetus as human life. That’s sort of a distortion that right-wingers have created. For example, with the recent controversy about killing the baby after it’s born, conservatives were asked why it’s any worse than normal abortion if a fetus is human life. I heard Ben Shapiro claim that abortion is just as bad, which is totally contrary to the Torah’s opinion. It is a bigger issur to kill an already born human than to get an abortion.
The yeshivas that do heicha mincha still say tachanun by mincha? I’m curious as to how they decided on that pecking order.
“Joseph, in his typical hateful and condescending fashion, is referring to “Mizrachi” as it refers to the Kippah Sruga wearing community”
Where? Did they take down the comment? Or, are you just assuming that’s how he uses the word Mizrachi because that’s how everyone uses it today?I’ve never personally heard a frum, Sphardi person refer to himself as “Mizrachi” even if he were from the east of Israel. The word has been appropriated, unfortunately.
“Being a kofer is against halacha – thus being a liberal, as defined colloquially, is against halacha.”
If your colloquial definition of a liberal is “one who supports frivolous abortion” then yes. As you can see, many don’t hold of that definition. Being pro-life is more of a litmus test for the right than being pro-choice is for the left. If ~50% of the country is liberal (it’s actually probably more because their side has a not-voting problem), and more than half the country supports greater regulation on abortion, then it just doesn’t add up. We live in a country where the party platforms are not always fully in line with the voters thanks to special interest groups. Could it be that just like people here vote republican despite disagreeing on gun control, many people vote democrat despite disagreeing on abortion?
“Liberal thinking trashes voluntary charity”
This is so untrue. I’m a conservative, but I don’t see why you feel the need to make stuff up to further the agenda.
“This was the Machatzis Hashekel to build the Mishkan”
How is that a mashal to welfare?“Let’s stop criticizing and mocking others, there is plenty to mock ourselves.”
Who are the ones doing the mocking here?“Please don’t put words into my mouth. There’s a distinction between stupidity and Kefirah, albeit a fine line.”
“would we have been Zoche to Bias HaMoshiach during the Rebbes lifetime, there was no better candidate than the Rebbe.”
You realize this pasul’s your moderate approach for many of us listeners?Milhouse:
It’s pretty common knowledge that Shabbatai Tzvi was condemned before his conversion is Islam. I know I was exaggerating when I presented your argument before, but are you really claiming it’s 100% mutar for someone to lie about being moshiach? You’re at the point of using Shabbati Tzvi’s early work as justification for Chabad meshichism?“Nu lets assume we can pasken from a “painting” but how did verify their Chassidic” status?
Did you see them holding siddurim marked Siddur HGra or Ashkenaz”…”
For starters, you could look at the paintings of the Gra, Chasam Sofer, Ksav Sofer, etc. What was the point of this discussion, again? Surely you’ll find a lot of bearded Jews if you go back to the pre-electric shaver days, right?Any: You really want people to bring sources to prove Chabad Meshichism is a thing? You don’t seem to have decided on a counter point yet, but claiming meshichism doesn’t exist is not an option. Your options are:
The Sechel Hayashar route: “meshichism is a problem, but there are still many legitimate Lubavitchers who haven’t fallen into such kefira.”
The Tomim route: “the Rebbe is moshiach and you’re all koifers for doubting him”
The Milhouse/Ocasio-Cortez route: “lying to the entire world is a noble and justifiable thing as long as it’s for the right reasons.”If you’d like to beat around the bush and pretend to be ignorant of the entire issue, I suggest you ask Chabadshlucha how that worked out.
When did people begin the practice of saying “look it up” at the end of every argument? Back in my day (3 weeks ago on the other Chabad war thread) we used to bring at least vague rayes like “the S”A says so.”
Joseph on this thread:
“Many (perhaps even close to a majority) who today call themselves Litvish are actually from Chasidish/heimish families. They come from Hungary, Poland, Ukraine, Austria, Czechoslovakia, etc., where their grandfathers or great-grandfathers were Chasidim or Oberlander.”Joseph on the other thread:
“This is a falsity. Halachicly one should not change from his father’s derech, minhagim, etc. That a requirement.”I’ve never understood how, out of all the radical shittos held by Mizrachi, his skepticism of the 6 million number is the one that broke the camel’s back. I understand it’s wrong and offensive, but it’s not like there’s a chiyuv to to promulgate the number 6 million. YWN had a article which collected many of his statements and it made that particular comment seem pretty minor in comparison.
“And btw you misunderstood the halacha/kabala thing which I didnt explain
But it’s not againsthalacha or kabala what is done”
This is going to drive me crazy. I not only agreed that it’s mutar to use stuff other than bread; I gave you a better source than the one you had. Stop changing the subject. Nobody is saying you’re over an issur.Anyways, when someone on the thread starts bringing rayas from Yosef Mizrachi, it’s time to exit the party…
Oh, and can I clarify one thing. This isn’t meant as a criticism of the mods’ last edit or an attempt to get through moderated stuff. I totally understand why you took it out because of what it sounded like I was saying, but now it changed the meaning.
I did not mean to claim that all MO people eat before davening. I know this is not the case. There was a second clause of that sentence that was not worded appropriately which meant to specify only certain MO people. It sounded like I was making an offensive generalization, which is why it was removed understandably given my propensity towards offensive generalizations.
“Are we talking abt halacha or kabala
But don’t say that its ageinst halacha”
Again, you’re using the exact same line of defense as the other guy. The topic is not whether or not you can be yotzei without bread. The topic is that you have a minhag to actively avoid bread. And, yes, it is halachically more l’hatchillah to use bread. You took the b’dieved and made it l’hatchillah and took the l’hatchillah and made it assur (for no reason). Should any rabbi be able to go and do that to the mesora?“Achilas kava ? Where’d you see or hear of such a thing.”
Are you asking me what it means or when I’ve seen Lubavitchers do it? If the latter, are you really going to tell me you’ve never seen Lubavitchers eat a shiur of mezonos before shachris? I’ve even heard of them doing bagels, although I admit I’ve never seen that personally.Can we get an Ilhan Omar-themed omer calendar this year?
“that since this meal is learned from the words “Hayom Lo”, unlike the first two meals which are learned from the word “Hayom”, we don’t need to eat bread for Shalosh Seudos, unlike the first two meals”
It’s not a Chabad chiddush that you can be yotzei without bread; the Rema says so in hilchos Pesach and probably elsewhere. It’s a Chabad chiddush that you should for some reason avoid bread like it’s some kind of issur. Don’t pretend you didn’t understand the issue being raised.
“So, eating before praying is not unique to Chabad”
Chabadniks have achilas keva before shachris. This is what you guys always do. You focus on a facet of the issue where you have slight backing to throw a smoke screen over the greater picture and fool the less learned people. And, for the record, eating before shachis is for all intensive purposes unique to Lubavitch and MO people (not the only area where those groups overlap).edited
“I look everything issue-by-issue and don’t necessarily toe the party line.”
Same here, but your original comment seemed to suggest that there’s a wholesale issur on all liberalism. It sounds like you actually just hold it’s assur to be liberal on the specific issues where liberals go contrary to halachah, which is not such a big chiddush. Maybe I just misunderstood your first comment.“Anybody who thinks liberals care about the poor is stuck in the 1930s”
I think the populist liberals do (as wrong as their approaches may be) and the establishment liberals don’t. Same as on the conservative side. I think anyone who thinks 2019 politics are about liberal vs. conservative rather than populist vs. establishmentarian are stuck in the 1990’s.“Conservatives care far more for the poor , the downtrodden, the yosam and almanah whereas the liberals use them as a tool and prop for political gain while giving them no help and nothing of use or import.”
That may be true about the American Democratic party in its current state, but I don’t think that’s always been true of Liberalism. I don’t think that–all throughout history–the entire concept of liberalism has been a scam to control poor people. I think certain people today use it for that purpose.
“The different minhogim between other chassidim and chabad”
1’s point was that Chassidim might claim they’re more authentically following the older mesorah than Litvaks. Examples of this would include yotzros, late minchah (even the no tachanun part is based in the Rema), M”A zmanim, R. Tam’s tzeis, and several parts of davening that most modern Litvaks skip al pi haGra.As for Chabad-specific things, people have already mentioned several. There are many Chabad minhagim which everyone is fine with, but those aren’t the ones they are known for. They’re known for the ones like eating before shachris, no seudah shlishis, davening late, etc.
“And why only chasam sofar or rama?”
That was lav davka. Any Ashkenaz sect should not ignore the Rema. The Chasam Sofer is a specific example because almost all Chassidim regard him very highly, while Chabad, on the other hand, will brazenly and erroneously call him a misnaged. Just an example of the deep divide between Chabad and Chassidim.A person can have liberal opinions on specific topics without loving abortion and being liberal in all areas.
Joseph, weren’t you in favor of common sense gun control?
1:
There is truth in what you’re saying. And, you could certainly make that point to support the Chassidusim who base many of their minhagim in the Chasam Sofer and often follow the Rema more closely that most Litvaks (eg. yotzros). However, Chabad is not one of these Chassidusim. All the minhagim for which they are known are invented, not based in any sources whatsoever.rational: not weighing in on this particular topic, but what you just said is not true. Stam Rema, or “b’midinos eleh” is espousing the dominant Ashkenazi minhag. Yesh oimrim is not necessarily.
The harrowing heroine with hair in a heron ate herring with heroin on Purim.
They’re most mislead about the existence of the word “misleaded” in the English language.
“Can you please explain then how Chassidus or Chabad came about?”
Reb Moshe said he didn’t know their heter to be mevatel their minhagei avos. It’s not so simple that just because they exist, it must be mutar. The original generation of Chassidim who were mevatel minhag Ashkenaz were most likely over an issur (depending on the Chassidus; some are probably not a real shinui).
HPC was mechallel shabbos with their printing. It might be assur altogether to use their books.
I have a sneaking suspicion that that was the response this thread was trying to solicit all along…
The hiddur mitzvah is with heroin.
“do you think Manhatten wasn’t an island at the time of yehoshua?!”
Possibly not. My understanding is that it’s largely man made.
Hashem protects those in the process of fulfilling a mitzvah. Am I the ONLY one here who isn’t a koifer? It’s just like how those to learn full time never go without money, or how everyone finds a shidduch even though it should be mathematically impossible, or how everyone in Israel is protected from Antisemitism. Why would Purim be any different?
It doesn’t really mean anything. Hashem will protect those who observe the mitzvah of getting drunk on Purim. Even if you drink 20 shots of vodka and drive, you’ll be fine.
“But suddenly when it comes to Purim, after we made sure we heard every single word of the megillah, and we gave tzdakah to many many ani’yim, suddenly we can rely on the most meikil shita in achronim.”
A mitzvah can’t be done b’simchah unless there are at least a thousand MO people telling you it’s wrong. It just keeps the balance in teh world. It’s all necessary.
“ever heard of kristallnacht?”
Surely you can’t be serious. Hitler wrote Mein Kampf (which became a best-seller), detailing his Anti-semitic opinions in 1925 and came to power in 1933. Kriallnacht was in 1938. Pogroms had been happening in Europe for centuries. It was not an overnight change in public attitude towards the Jews and I’ve never heard any historian claim that it was.I still don’t see where you’re getting that people are ignoring the Antisemitism in the US. You can state evidence of it worsening, but who’s ignoring it? It seems like your goal isn’t actually to get us to stop ignoring the Antisemitism in the US, but rather to get us to START ignoring all the Antisemitism in Israel and elsewhere.
Syag, how is stating facts a troll post? You’ve been here longer than I have. You know as well as anyone that the anti-drinkers are way more vocal. We’re at the point where those of us who follow the halachah are trolls now?
Gadol: The problem with your point is that I’ve been here for years and 99% of the times when this subject comes up, it’s brought up by an anti-drinker.
His point isn’t to enforce his shittah. His point is that he’s sick of the anti-drinkers promulgating their shittah, and frankly, I think he speaks for all of us. It’s not a chiddush at this point. We don’t need to hear it every year. I sincerely doubt anyone’s ever called you a koifer for not getting drunk. Just like a doubt anyone has ever called someone a koifer for wearing a blue shirt. It’s just a weird, compulsive need that meikel people have to preemptively defend their shittos with CR threads on account of their deep seated insecurities.
So, the original topic was that Antisemitism is bad in the US currently. But, when we try to define “bad” by comparing to past times, you tell us we can’t do that. When we try to compare to other countries, you tell us we can’t do that. So, it boils down to: Antisemitism is a bad thing happening to some non-quantifiable degree in the US, and as Jews it should concern us. Why would such a thread even get more than 2 replies? You should be happy if we misinterpreted it.
Yeah, if it’s your religious shittah that Israel is miraculous and defies logic, then there’s not much point in arguing farther. If you want to talk within the realm of logic, then you have no leg to stand on. As several of us have told you many times, you are statistically way more likely to be the victim of Antisemitism in Israel than anywhere else.
As far as an outburst happening overnight, which by the way is not actually how it historically has worked, the question would still be why would you be safe in Israel? If the industrialized world was taken over by Nazi rhetoric, they’re not going to just target the Jews in chutz and leave Israel alone.