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“As far as I can tell, and I’m certainly not an expert, it is only the degree of how loudly to proclaim that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe as being Moshiach. But both agree with the bottom line.
If my understanding is incorrect I’d love to be corrected.”
See my comment above for the theological difference, but otherwise yeah I think you’re pretty much correct.
“The anti Chabadskers are not the ones who said Moshiach can’t come from the dead. That was the position of Chabad until Gimmel Tammuz when they did a 180 and decided to rely on the Gemara.”
Wait what? That is absolutely the universally accepted, non-Chabad opinion, that the Rebbe is disqualified due to his death. You’re actually now saying that meshichism caused them to better align with the gemara?
“A bunch of crazy people,I hope all of you DIE right now,just DIE,.you see how Rebbe lubawitz will kill you.you dont have to stop,he will STOP you.”
Bro, how drunk are you?
“coffee addict: Once death doesn’t disqualify Dovid Hamelech it shouldn’t disqualify anyone else
But that’s the excuse the Lubavichers use to say that their rebbe can be Mashiach!”
Was that not his point? I’m confused as to how he didn’t mean that as a defense of Chabad (at least in the context of this argument). If not, that’s a bad look for “team-anti-Chabad” that he just accidentally and independently arrived at the exact conclusion they want: that moshiach can come from the dead after techias hameisim and therefore the Rebbe is still eligible.
Belz was noheig to get their talleisin davka from Tunisia because there was a mesora that fabric produced there did not have shatnez (it’s brought down in achronim). Happens to be that the talleisin from there had dark blue stripes. They’ve since stopped using that supplier as it turned out it actually did have shatnez, but they kept the blue stripes.
If anyone knows more about this and wants to correct anything I said, feel free. It’s nothing to do with the modern, light blue ones. The assertion people have made above that black tallisin are a reaction to zionism is a myth that needs to die. Not only are there easily available paintings that confirm black ones pre-1948, but many individuals even own talleisin from their ancestors from 100+ years ago with black stripes (even from non-Ashkenazi regions!). In any case, this has nothing to do with what the OP asked about.
“Sorry Neville but now you’re just spewing garbage”
Belief in individual liberty is now “garbage” under the Trumpest definition of “conservatism.” If American conservatism now has to include lockdown-supporters then conservatism is dead in America.“Well the do nothing to stop it isn’t the point”
Yes, it was. You’re just moving the goalposts to make excuses for Trump. Trumpists do the same thing by the border wall (eg. well, obviously he didn’t really mean it, obviously he was never really going to make Mexico pay, etc.).“Oh yes such a thing happened. Go research it.”
It was only 4 years ago, you really think I don’t remember? I don’t deny that he made such a statement, but it did nothing. Are you really claiming that after he said that, all restrictions were instantly lifted on houses of worship? If that was your experience (which I highly doubt), then you probably live in a red state with an actual conservative governor. I can tell you with certainty that that did not happen in New York.“And Guess what I am one of those that believe lockdowns at least early on were important.”
Then you’re a collectivist rat. If you’re worried about safety, hide in your own basement. Forcing the rest of us to do so is no less psychotic than any other dictatorship throughout history. They all have their justifications for tyranny. Also, not that it makes a difference, but the lockdowns were demonstrably ineffective except at causing thousands if not millions of young people to die of suicide and overdose.“& comparing it to swine flu?? Please.”
Good point, the swine flu was arguably much worse since it was dangerous to kids and not just old/sick people who had already long outlived their life expectancies. Nonetheless, Obama did the right thing and did not use it as an excuse for authoritarianism.“I distinctly remember many people’s beef with trump was his being anti-lockdown.”
If half the stuff leftists said about Trump were true, he would have actually been a decent president. Unfortunately, he was not the “extremist conservative” you all like to pretend. He was–at best–a pareve, neo-liberal just like the rest.“my wish list is short:
1) do not do anything crazy
2) reduce the power of the presidency”
Fully agree with AAQ here. Unfortunately, I don’t think people voted in favor of a weaker executive branch. At least that’s not how I interpret it.Yankel: Interestingly, I think Chabad Meshichism, Bar Chochba, Shabbatei Tzvi, et al. are all great arguments against Christianity. They prove there was nothing special about their guy and that Jews believing in false moshiachs is actually quite common.
Yankel: I understand that kasheh, but it always just turns into a machlokes hametzius since they’re just going to deny that they ever held that way before 1994. Unfortunately, I don’t know of anything on record to refute this.
qwerty
“What I wrote and yankel confirmed is that it’s hypocritical for Chabad to brag that they’re aficionados of Rambam and then when a certain Psak of his refutes their Moshiach claim they reject it.”Again, so what? If they claim to be “aficionados” then they have to pasken like him all the time? Are modern day Litvaks “hypocrites” for occasionally not paskening like the Mishnah Berurah? Are sphardim hypocrites for sometimes not paskening like the mechaber?
Admittedly, Yankel actually answered my question, so feel free to not bother responding with your usual depraved rambling.
“So being duped by the top “doctor” (sorry I should’ve wrote top moocher) is somehow his fault?”
Lol of course it’s his fault! What kind of question even is that? If Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson tell him side with Hamas and he listens, would that also not be his fault? In fact, I would argue my example is LESS extreme that your’s. At least in my hypothetical, he would be listening to alleged conservative voices. Everybody knows doctors and scientists are psycho lefties and that nothing they say about policy should be taken seriously. Obama didn’t shred the constitution during swine flu, and I’m sure there were commie doctors telling him he should. I’m sorry if you, like Trump, we unintelligent enough to be tricked by Fauci and can therefore empathize, but those of us with brains expect a little more from a so-called conservative president.
Chaim87:
Israel is now in the longest war of its history, so how much good did his “peacemaking” really do? Also, I’m not sure what you mean by “ripping up the Iran deal” when Iran is still actively pursuing nuclear weapons, and he did nothing to stop this.“3) Moved the embassy”
Yes, he moved a building from one location to another. Apparently this makes a person the greatest thing to ever happen to the Jewish people even if he or she bumps elbows with neo-Nazis.“6) during covid passed a law for houses of worship”
No such thing happened. I think he passed a “statement” or some such thing, which his actions prove he didn’t even actually mean. If he really wanted to stop the lockdowns he would have taken legal action (or recommended legal action) against the states enforcing it and taken them to the supreme court. Instead, he lauded the authoritarian governors and criticized the (Republican!) pro-freedom governors. And, by the way, he continued to do this all the way into the last year during the primaries against Desantis. There is absolutely no mystery that he supported the lockdowns; he has made it clear time and time again.“How is debatable that Chassidim changed minhagim – whether in Lita or other places also? I don’t think any chassidim disagree with.”
Because many things considered “Chassidish minhagim” are actually examples of Chassidim following the Rema and Ashkenazi rishonim better than their Litvish counterparts (anything relating to shkiah, for example). Many other examples are simply reflective of differences between central European minhag (often following the Chasam Sofer) and eastern European, still nothing to do with Chassidus in a hashkafic sense. Many of the nusach differences are likely a result of this rather than “making stuff up” as uninformed people like to claim. Jews in Europe outside of Lita had a mesora. The fact that they now happen to be associated with Chassidus does not invalidate this mesora.The cases where Chassidim did actually make a change (eg. the placement of baruch sheamar or not wrapping tefillin on chol hamoed), you are correct that they admit to the change, unlike their Litvish counterparts who erroneously claim to be following an unaltered mesora. As far as who has made more changes statistically speaking, I’m not sure, but it’s definitely not pashut.
Coffee Addict: What are you trying to imply with the shoes thing? It seems random and weird, but what would be theoretically wrong with it? Why is it worse than having a minhag to wear a purple tie on the first Thursday of every month or any other random thing?
“Let’s not forget the question that stumped Shmei, “How could Chabad reject Rambam ‘s criteria for Moshiach?””
Aside from the fact that he’s answered this like a million times throughout these threads (albeit I don’t agree with him), what’s the hava amina here? That disagreeing with the Rambam is unequivocally kefira? We pasken not like the Rambam all the time.
“Gadol > We should greet them with open arms and encourage them to return.
Indeed, and tzadikim do that.”I see your switching to the more popular moderate position in hopes that nobody notices? On the first page of this, nobody was initially saying that the non-hat crowd needs to be embraced so that they will become more frum and start wearing hats/jackets. Your contention–shared with others here–was that there is no inyan of davening in a hat and jacket at all as if you suggest that these people (including the “tzadikkim” you now refer to) are just wasting their time doing it for no reason.
“7) De-nuclearization of Iran”
He promised to do this during his first term and failed, why would this time be any different?“9) An end to the ACA and the cost of health insurance/care decreasing”
He promised to do this during his first term and failed, why would this time be any different?“11) A permanent resolution to the border crisis ”
He promised to build a wall his first term and failed, why would this time be any different?And, don’t say he didn’t have a republican majority in the house and senate. He did for the first two years, and he made no attempt to do anything resembling a conservative policy in those years.
The cognitive dissidence of Trump supporters is starting to sound like that of Communism supporters; you can point out dozens of historical failures, but it’s always shani hasam, it was different over there, but this next time it will work perfectly. It will always be perfect “next time.”
He failed last time and he’ll fail this time. If it weren’t for being brainwashed into a personality cult, all conservatives would see that.
“4) to really get down to the origins of COVID and possible prosecution against Anthony fauci”
Remind me again who was the president in 2020 who held televised briefings every night where he and Fauci stood together urging the nation to adhere to their unconstitutional tyranny? I seem to have forgotten his name, do you recall? I think he was the same one that publicly criticized Brian Kemp for lifting the lockdowns “too early” in Georgia. The one who also redistributed wealth in the form of stimulus checks for individuals and beefing up unemployment benefits to make up for all the jobs he destroyed with the lockdowns, which swiftly led to the worst inflation of any of our lifetimes. Would you like me to give you any more information to jog your memory?
“You are correct, I used the apikorsut and avoda zara interchangeably.”
There’s a huge difference. That’s the point he’s making to you and philosopher.
“Dressing “differently” does not translate into marginalizing those who may come into a shul from a different hashkafah (or maybe no hashkafah). We should greet them with open arms and encourage them to return. I suspect, in most cases, they will quickly pick up on “minhag hamokom” with respect to the lvush of the mispallalim and conform without the need for exclusionary signage.”
Surprisingly reasonable take. Did you stop being rabidly anti-Chareidi in the years that I wasn’t paying close attention to the CR?
“Most of them dress like locals. I don’t know what the “modern” position is, but my personal is that we need to use not “average” goyishe dress, but top 1 to 10%”
I infer that we both agree that today’s “average goy” has extremely low standards of dress. You didn’t have to go to the top 1% back 100 years ago–or even 50 years ago–to find respectably dressed goyim. So, even within your shittah, we would be faced with the choices of either searching for the few that still kind of care and model ourselves after them, or just do our own thing. What I don’t understand is the outright opposition to doing our own thing–the insistence that we MUST base ourselves off the goyim in some capacity. Where does that come from?
“Note that there is no tension right now between science and Torah as ideology.”
Pfft, what?!“Many rabonim objected to Mendelhson translation as it led to Jews learning hochdeutsche and that to mixed dancing. Anyone is objecting to Artscroll nowadays?”
Artscroll is by frum yidden, not by the founder of Reform Judaism.“I think every reasonable response that we have now is more effective than what was there 200 years ago – whether it is lakewood yeshiva, bays yaakov, or chabad houses, or Ohr Sameach, or modern day schools.”
Several of these are kiruv organizations trying to undue the damage caused by embracing modernity. Lakewood yeshiva is modeled after yeshivos from 200 years ago. Modern day schools are a great example of a failing way of dealing with modernity.“I did not write public schools are above any and all corruption. Please don’t put words in my mouth.”
That’s a fair criticism. I apologize.“Many in the CR are aware that I may be a social liberal, but am a fiscal conservative.”
Sorry, but I think we’ll have to agree to disagree about the definition of fiscal conservatism. I know you might point out that you happen to take the fiscally conservative stance on vouchers, but that could just be because you’re doing whatever the opposite of what republicans do. Is there ever a time where you are fiscally conservative even when the mainstream democrat shittah is not to be?“BTW, for those who will raise the issue of ‘illegal aliens’ receiving free college education: the Connecticut plan for free community college for high school graduates requires the student fill out the Fafsa form and all grants are paid directly to the school. The Fafsa is only open to US Citizens”
In fact, men have to register for the draft to be eligible for Fafsa (unless that changed). That being said, it’s not Fafsa people are worried about. It’s nonsense like the DREAM act or whatever that are just designed to give cash rewards to anyone who can swim across the Rio Grande and avoid capture.
Um, wut?
“How is the fact that someone in Baghdad did not say tachanun affected what happened in Vilna?”
I didn’t say it did (although, as a side point, I might contend that it is relevant). The poster was implying that the only reason not to say tachanun is if you’re “looking for excuses” not to.“Chassidim changed minhagim of their communities, not litvakim.”
This is largely a fallacy, but one with so much traction that it would be hard to contend. At the very least, the second clause is easily debatable: how could any of minhag lita that is based on the Gra exist before the Gra? That means they at least changed those minhagim. In any case, I’m not defending skipping tachanun for a Rebbe’s Yahrzeit or anything like that; I just don’t think tachanun in general is as big of a deal and Litvaks like to pretend. Bare in mind, many if not most Litvish yeshivos skip korbanos every single day. We all have our weaknesses.“Most chabadniks don’t spend their free time running up and down Eastern Parkway with yellow flags. The Rebbe is Moisiach cult clearly has some traction but certainly NOT the majority view.”
Most Orthodox Jews don’t spend their free time running up and down the road screaming “it’s Shabbos!” when they see people driving. The fraction of Orthodox Jews who believe you can’t drive on Shabbos has some traction, but certainly NOT the majority view.
I can’t wait for this to get taken out of context…
“I am not a cancel student loans advocate.”
Why not, out of curiosity? Obviously, I’m also against it, but you and my shittos are very different.“So, you benefit from their reputation, earned by in-state selectivity, pay more than in state, but still way less than comparable private.”
I’m not sure if prices have changed since I was in college, but this traditionally was not true. Paying out of state tuition was usually comparable to paying for an average private university. You are correct that they are less selective with the out of state people that have to pay more… Kind of pokes a small hole in CTL’s whole theory about public schools being magically above any and all corruption.“let’s all wear black hats and voilà,”
I never said anything about black, and neither did the OP.“I am all in for requiring socks in shul, by the way.”
Okay… Me too.“everyone refers to the standard of the time of what is respectful clothing.”
I’ve not seen convincing evidence that this means we model ourselves after the goyim, as the Modern Orthodoxy likes to suggest. The minhag in the Torah world is still to daven in a hat and jacket. If that changes, you can say “times have changed,” but until then…“Would you agree with this?”
Yes, that is exactly the machlokes.“this becomes “no true Scotsman” fashion.”
As the great Papa Bar Abba once remarked in one of these CR discussions, all of religion is one big “no true Scotsman” shmooze. It’s redundant to pull that card.“You simply declare that your community is the standard and, thus, everyone else is in violation of OC”
Not so. Litvaks, Chassidim, Sphardim dress differently and don’t take issue with the different fashions (for men anyway). This isn’t about different standards, this is about having standards vs. not.“Of course, at some point – probably 18th century, Yidden clearly adopted standard Polish dress and then (some) refused to change it”
I don’t think this is “clear,” and I would, in fact, challenge the assertion that all Poles walked around looking like Chareidi Jews in the 1700’s.“as we developed more sophisticated ways to deal with modernity.”
Which is what? Surrendering to secularism and liberal academia? If anything, enlightenment mentality is worse now than it was during The Enlightenment. For the record, this last point is not about davening attire.“Because we don’t look for excuses to not say Tachanun.”
So, the sephardi mesora is built on looking for excuses not to say tachanun?
I don’t think this post is about the times with Chassidim controversially don’t say tachanun, but rather when Litvaks controversially DO (eg. Pesach Sheni, after shkiah, etc.).
I get it, you want to bash on Chassidim for not saying tachanun enough, but if you live in a glass house, don’t throw stones. It’s a reshus, and saying it when you shouldn’t might be worse than the inverse.
“1. Universal Basic Income: Paychecks for Breathing”
The only president to have actually practiced this so far was Trump in 2020 with the Corona stimulus checks. Why is it magically not stupid when he does it?“Because nothing builds community trust quite like a neighborhood devoid of law enforcement.”
Most of rural America does not have local law enforcement, and the crime there is lower. They also don’t have to worry about being arrested for self defense like you do in the cities that are swarming with cops. Why is it that all the cops had to do was kill a guy on camera for the new-right-wingers to completely forget about Waco and Ruby Ridge and all the other anti-government talking points? Why did doggish loyalty to the government become a “conservative” value overnight?“5. Cancel Culture: The New Puritanism”
I don’t like it either, but it’s not a government issue. Losing friends or jobs over unpopular political positions is not an example of censorship. Many of the Republican plans to fight “PC culture,” however, are examples of censorship (eg. Nikki Haley wanting to basically nationalize social media).For the record, I’m not a liberal. In case it wasn’t clear, I think the republican party has become liberal in many ways I don’t like (pro-big government, pro-deficit spending).
CT-Lawyer:
If you want to donate money for kids to go to college, nobody is stopping you, but why should the rest of us have our bank accounts looted? We have our own families to worry about, and can help others with whatever extra we have, but the government should have no right to make that decision for us.“I have no problem with my tax dollars funding higher public education.
I feel the same about this as K-12, free public education for all; if you want a private education fund it yourself”
I haven’t heard the cancel-student-loan-debt advocates say that it should only be for people who attended state colleges.“during Chol HaMoed Sukkos I attended this shul for Schacharis so I would not feel totally out of place davening with Tephillin on.”
Isn’t the minhag more associated with Lita to not do this? Wouldn’t this be more central European/German?
By the way, I’m not asking a kasheh on a maaseh. If you say you’re family came from Lita and did it this way, I believe you. Just wondering if you’ve commonly found other people with this experience.
“Lithuanian section of the Pale of Settlement”
What’s the Pale of Settlement?AAQ: I was giving the seif in S”A. 12 I think is the seif katan in Mishnah Berurah. Sorry.
“Aruch Hashulchan, I think, rules differently.”
I highly doubt this, but I can’t prove it as it’s hard to prove a negative. If the Aruch Hashulchan specifically stated that there were no inyan of wearing a hat or jacket, the Modern Orthodoxy would probably print that quote on yellow flags and dance around the bimah chanting it in simchas Torah. On a serious note, if the MO position really had this strong of a support, they would say so right off the bat rather than making silly arguments like what you’ve been doing.“Maybe, apply same approach when you want to enhance your observance in terms of time, effort, and money spent, make sure it is done the way your household feels good about it.”
This isn’t a musar shmooze. If you were talking about wanting to dress properly for davening, but struggling with it, this would be a totally separate discussion. If you have too many other areas to focus on to worry about proper kavod for davening, fine, but why are you trying to get other people to be worse? Seems like an interiority complex.
“Should we go back to machlokes between nusach ashkenaz and sfarad? Mishnaic examples list cases when we shush a shaliach tzibur – when he says something unacceptable, not just “different”.”
I don’t think it’s a good analogy, but we can go with this if it will make you happy. The shul in discussion decided that this was a “shush the Shatz” case, most other shuls clearly don’t.
“There are two elections coming, the plebiscite of the people Nov 5th, the the vote of the Electoral College in December.
Trump has lost the plebiscite twice in a row and I expect him to lose again November 5.”No republican has won the popular vote since Bush’s reelection, and he took office initially via a popular-vote-loss election. I think there’s a very real possibility that a republican will never take office with the popular vote again, or at least not for a very long time.
In any case, the OP was clearly asking about the vote that actually matters which is the electoral vote. I personally think both will go to Harris. The articles I’ve seen trying to paint a Trump victory have been using various stretches of imagination like pretending that Minnesota might be a toss-up. I also don’t see any compelling evidence that he’ll do any better in Michigan and Wisconsin this time. The only states I think might could flip from last election would be Pennsylvania and Georgia, but I don’t think even that gives him enough.
Nishtday: I think he’s just saying random nonsense to troll. See his earlier comment about Litvaks being the ones who say “umayn.” You’d have to live under a rock to make that mistake in earnest.
For the OP: it is sometimes perplexing. They’re even more insistent about post-shkiah being zman safek or even vadai no longer day, yet they’re the ones willing to say tachanun after shkiah. If anything one would expect it to be the reverse.
Example: many modern litvaks won’t even make shalosh seudos after shkiah (even though the Mishnah Berurah and everyone before the 20th century was matir), but they say tachanun even though everyone agrees it’s a reshus and safek reshus l’hakeil.
“But just like the Early Christians first believed in Yoshke as their moshiach, then he died so they ascribed special powers to him that he really didn’t die and he’s going to come back, from that the Christians slowly turned him into a deity.”
Just to play devil’s advocate, something isn’t avodah zarah just because it’s “going down the same path” as something that became avodah zarah. In fact, I might even conclude from this part of your post that you don’t even think they’re a”z… yet. But, that there’s a good chance they’re heading towards it.
If Chabad were halachically a”z, we’d all being over major issurim on a regular basis, whether you like it or not. It would be much further reaching than kashrus, so simply avoiding their hechsherim would not be enough.
“tefillin are in halacha, hats are not.”
Mishnah Berurah 91:5. The prevailing culture of frum yidden is still to wear and hat and jacket out of respect. The culture is not defined by goyim who have no moral standards.“men wrote seforim about what they want women to wear.”
For starters, there probably are some tznius books by women, but who cares if there aren’t? Men are the ones who write halachah sforim.“I’ll wait for women to write seforim what they want men to wear.”
Where is this made up inyan in dressing the way women want you to? If women like seeing you shirtless, it doesn’t mean you should daven that way.“For now, I am following Torah shebalpe from my wife and she paskens I should daven without a hat.”
Cute, but obviously not a serious point. You don’t have to listen to your wife when she’s telling you to be less observant, nor she you. If you “paskened” that you’d rather her wear pants and short sleeves, would that make it mutar? I’m not sure I actually want to know your answer…Square Root: Your post has nothing to do with anything, and even if it did, we don’t pasken directly from the Tanach.
Akuperma: He never said anything about the Jewish vote.
I think Harris is going to win.
“In other words, the Frum Community prioritizes what people look like
on the outside, more so than what people are on the inside.”So, should we not care about tefillin, since those are on the outside? Tzitzis? Why care about covering out heads at all?
You guys realize there are probably hundreds of sforim on how Jewish women need to dress al pi halachah; it is shameful that today’s men can’t even be bothered to hold themselves to even the slightest standard even for the ~1 hour a day they spend davening with a minyan, much less all the time.
“They may be a minority but there are some Chabadniks that totally reject the Rebbe is Moshiach concept (& think it’s damaging to the movement) & stick to “Old School” Chabad Chasidus.”
Not just a minority, they aren’t considered Chabad by Chabadniks. There are people like the “Liozna Rebbe” who have been mentioned here from time to time. They’re run out of their own community. Sounds like the people you know also aren’t part of the Chabad community; they just follow old Chabad minhagim.
I personally don’t care if they want to call themselves Chabadniks; I don’t have enough skin in this game to play “no-true-scottsman.” My point is, however, that you can’t really use those people as a proof towards a non-meshichist faction of the Chabad community when they aren’t actually accepted as part of the Chabad community.
“Certainly more fitting to talk to the King of Kings than a man wearing pressed beige khakis & a blue polo shirt.”
Yes, but unironically. Wearing dress clothes that are tattered due to use and you cannot afford better is still more of a sign of respect that wearing clothes that are not respectable under any circumstances.
“Joe,
To play OP’s advocate”
But, why? You already know there’s going to be a sizable army of MO posters defending davening in short-shorts and a tank-top, why do you need to play “devils advocate” with the one guy actually standing up for halachah?
As to your point, maybe those things would also be proper for davening, but we all know that isn’t what the OP or any of these other people are talking about.
Madeofmeaning:
There are two camps: the ones who believe he is actively moshiach and “alive” right now (whatever that means), and those that believe moshiach can come from the dead by way of techias hameisim happening first.I do not believe there are any Lubavitchers who believe the moshiach will by definition have to be someone other than the Rebbe (due to his death), which is the belief of the entire rest of the frum world.
Per our (non-Chabad) definitions, all Lubavitchers are meshichists because none of them are willing to say “the Rebbe cannot be moshiach.” Now, by their definitions, they might identify as “anti-meshichists” when they’re in the techias hameisim camp. In other words, they’re “not” meshichist relative to the super-meshichist, yechiist types, but the rest of us don’t care about this distinction.
As a side note, what I’m explaining is how they can tell fellow frum yiddin that they’re “non-meshichist” with it sort of not being a lie in their minds. As far as their aggressive wikipedia editing campaign and other PR things they do to tell the world it’s only a small fringe, that’s just straight up sheker. I have no idea how they justify it.
“Jews in Western Europe often continued marry mostly within their own, even when assimilated, secular, or even baptized”
Then what’s the issue?Square Root:
I sincerely hope that you’re trolling. You do understand that kiruv does not consist of secular Jews coming up and saying “hello, I’m here to be processed and turned into a Baal Teshuva, please.”Nobody would agree to what you’re saying. They have to “admit people to the kiruv process” who have no intention of ever becoming frum, otherwise they wouldn’t ever have anyone.
“Kiruv is hatzalas nefashos mamash.”
Source?“Neville, do you know what Yiddishkeiteven is? Because if what I said regarding tzaddikim giving brochos is supposedly “checkmate/avodah zora” then you know less than an am haaretz.”
Lol, what? I was mocking qwerty with that comment. How was that even slightly unclear?
My point was that you (as a certified non-Lubavitcher with qwerty stamp of approval) are allowed to say these things (as you should be). If a Lubavitcher said exactly the same words as you, qwerty would call that person an idolator. This is just a team sport for him; he has no cohesive ideology.
“#1 answers like women are busy at home or are holier are apologetics.”
I’m glad someone had the guts to say this. These “women are holier” drashos are relatively recent and very cringeworthy.
Also, the “you should be glad you aren’t burdened” is absolute nonsense. Any man who actually believes that is making a bracha l’vatalah every time he says “shelo asani isha.” We are happy to have the chiyuvs; if you’re not, you have to introspection to do.
I think it seems like the OP has heard these transparently phony answers in the past and was looking for something different.