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The one written above.
If you find yourself somehow unable to actually scroll up the several inches it would take to read this, then the point I was making above is that good middos is a vague term and covers most people, and is certainly a requirement for reasons I hope I need not enumerate. But perfect, or unfeasibly good middos, as in a person who never acts in any manner other than perfectly good natured, is unatainable. Basically, the term ‘Good Middos’, when used in the context of shidduchim, can basically be replaced with, ‘Not Horrible’. And this is hopefully the last I’ll speak of the matter.
Well done, Sherlock. I also didn’t point out that reality may be a projection of our subconscious in order to provide a medium through which our surroundings may be comprehensible, or that the sky is generally blue and the moon rarely is. Because that wasn’t the point I was making.
Like a red flag to a bull…
I couldn’t agree more. Cliches should be avoided like the plague. Still, once in a blue moon, they just click into place. So don’t get all bent out of shape about it. Seems like you’ve got a real chip on your shoulder. And even if they’re not quite your cup of tea, there’s no use crying over spilt milk. I probably shouldn’t add insult to injury. I feel as if I’m just rambling on. Oh well, I;ve started so I’ll finish. I can’t help but feel like I’m flogging a dead horse, writing out cliches like there’s no tomorrow. Just making the bast of a bad situation. I’m really in my element. You know, there’s not many I can think of right off the top of my head. There’s a whole bunch on the tip of my tongue. I think I’ve got an ace up my sleeve. I think I’ll give it a rest now. I’m curious as to how long I can keep this on for, but, as curiosity killed the cat, I’ll give it a rest. Ah well, all’s well that ends well.
A quick, friendly message to all Americans out there:
There are actual people who actually live in your actual country, adults, with the intellectual capacity not only to legally vote, but to make their views on democracy known, amongst them staunch defenders of democracy, who would actually vote for this man. And not only some, but many.
What is wrong with the place?!
Both good points. I find myself, for once, agreeing in part with ZD.
edited. It’s Tisha b’Av, for gosh sakes…
But I think that, as with most things, the real answer is to be found not at the extremes, but with a balancing act. Yes, most things in life are not free, and good maggid shiurim and website operators generally do not operate for free. And if the money goes to help propagate more of the same, or to keep a shul/moisod running, then I fully support limited fees.
But in the Information Age, where opportunities for disseminating free shiurim and the like to not only those in the kehilla, but outside it too, are plentiful, every effort should be made to provide ‘Torah services’ free-at-the-point-of-use, be it through the use of donations, advertising and volunteers. And, b’h. for the most part this is the case, particularly when you look at web offerings.
If wishing somebody has good middos is not an absolute requirement, the person in question needs to have their head examined.
The good news is that virtually everybody has good middos, if you take this statement to mean that they are generally disposed to act kindly. At least, this is my rose tinted, naive view of the world. Good middos does not mean having perfect middos. A person with good middos, and a generally good nature, can occasionally not behave as such.
So in summation, if somebody is searching for a perfect spouse in the middoz department, they are likely to be disappointed. But requiring that somebody is generally good natured and kind, is, for most people, crucial. Unless, of course, they themselves are horrible. If only there was a specific shadchan service for mean people. It could be the real answer to the shidduch crisis.
It likely is different now? Or not not unlike?
In my dream shul:
*The baal koireh is good, well prepared with a pleasant voice, but occasionally makes mistakes.
*People bring their children, some of whom are messy and/or make a noise.
*People are generally courteous, but sometimes leave dirty tissues around, don’t push their chairs back under the table every time.
*Most people come on time or early, but some don’t.
*The shaliach tzibbur will be neither too fast nor too slow, and will progress at a speed that suits the oilom.
*People don’t shmuz, but don’t go absolutely crazy if somebody does. It’s simply accepted that they shouldn’t.
*People generally mind their own business unless a really serious matter comes up.
*People don’t discipline other people’s children. Ever.
And whilst some of the things I am willing to accept in my dream shul may be less than perfect, at least I’m davening with the sort of people I generally like to keep company with. Human Beings. Fallible, occasionally irritating Human Beings, but who are generally considerate and value their davening and their bein odom le’chaveiroi.
And my dream shul actually has some real people in it.
As others have pointed out, everybody agrees one must do their hishtadlus as far as afety is concerned, and everybody agrees there are lessons to be learned in terms of chizuk. The major discussion appears to be about the cut-off point. And basically, with the exception of somebody who lights their own house on fire, there isn’t one.
There can be two lessons to be learned. One, that if a tragedy occurred and it could have been prevented through certain safety measures, we should implement them. And two, that this came from the Riboinoi Shel Oilom, no matter what the circumstances. The two are not a contradiction. So I don’t see what there is to argue about.
LG:
Good HP reference!
There is no obvious cut-off point. Why can’t people both understand that Hashem does everything for a reason, and take tragedies like this as a spiritual wake up call, and do the necessary hishtadlus for safety. Seeing the yad Hashem in an event doesn’t mean that one must avoid the more obvious practical lesson. The two are not contradictions.
mw13:
Thank you for that very illuminating outline of the book. And if she indeed had a valid source, such as the Vilna Goan according to one poster, than of course that point takes on a whole new light.
And just to address a more central issue. In your post you mention that she asks about women’s supposed ‘secondary role’ in Judaism. This is a valid question, but one with a well established answer across the board, as you point out, that the differences between the genders is not hierarchical, but elemental. The fact, the metzius is that there are fundamental differences and therefore different roles.
An interesting component of this is one of the most central differences between a torah outlook and the opposite. The secular way of looking at the world declares personal choice to be king. If one wishes to act in a certain way, then there is no greater injustice to that individual than to deny him that choice. We see this especially with regard to certain types of immorality. In a secular environment there more often than not is no concept of having to do what one wishes not to do. And tht end result of this is a culture of permissiveness. One cannot be deprived of something if they want it. Therefore, if a woman wishes, for example, to be a Rabbi, the secular world would decry as bigotry any view that proscribes this.
But that is because, in their collective mind, the only aim in being in a position of halachic authority is the personal aspect, the status and honour this provides. For us. the pursuit of Torah for status alone is unthinkable. People become Rabbis because that is their role in life in which they can serve the Ribbonio Shel Oilom in the best possible manner. Honour and prestige isn’t, and shouldn’t, be a factor. In certain other religions, and liberal movements, they have changed their position to place women in clerical positions because firstly, who is to deny them that choice in life, and secondly, why should only males receive what in their minds is mainly prestige. We understand that there are roles for different people and different genders, and personal choice and honour are meant to be hindrances, not motives.
Pointing out that nowadays there is no woman who can be called daas Torah, and that in history there have only been a handful of women who were, is not misogynist. It’s fact. And the reason for this fact I have outlined above.
And anyway, I’m not sure I understand you here. You don’t disagree, but you feel the views you don’t disagree with are misogynist. So which is it? Y2 made perfect sense. If there is nobody nowadays qualified to make that statement, then ?? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?? ????? there is no woman with the necessary authority.
And your statement about neither myself or Y2 bringing a mekor is a moot point. He did not say that the vort was wrong, but simply that if Comlink was correct and he had found it in a book by Rebbitzen Plonis without any other source, then the vort is worse than useless, as he pointed out with his apt Rabbi Krohn moshul. If it truly came from the Vilna Goan then it has merit.
Great. I hope I didn’t come across as being too harsh, that was never my intention. I just wanted to prevent you worrying about people being choished biksherim.
This is really not my department, but I would just like to make this quick point.
Simply, since your questions are of a medical nature, make sure to double check anything you get recommended with a competent medical authority, You cannot just take the advice of total strangers with this kind of thing without a heaping pile of salt. If possible just bring it up with your doctor.
Nobody is bashing here. I haven’t seen anybody be unduly personal or cutting. We have all simply unequivocally and emphatically stated that this behaviour is completely unacceptable. Earlier, you demonstrated excellent middos and reacted in a very calm and kind way, and congrats to you for that, but you also basically advised GGG, again very politely, that they were being annoying. What people are pointing out is that GGG is very obviously being deliberately annoying, and, despite obviously being very familiar with the CR, has irritated almost everybody else. This is wrong, and the message should be that they must stop immediately, and that the Moderators should please reverse the damage for all our sakes’. And the poor behaviour in this instance is not on the part of those complaining, especially since it has all been remarkably civilised when you consider the annoyance caused.
And, whilst I’m on the subject, Coz, nobody has seriously accused you of being GGG, so you can calm down on that inyan.
All those disagreeing with yekke2, feel free to disagree. But at the very least explain your side of the argument, as opposed to just using rhetoric. Being politically incorrect does not make something incorrect.
All Y2 was saying was without a mekor this statement is worse than useless, as nowadays there is virtually nobody with the authority to make that kind of statement. And of those whom would have some authority to say this, e.g. Gedolei Yisrael, none, obviously, are women, as the fact is that within yiddishkeit limud hatorah is a male pursuit, with very few notable exceptions, as Y2 pointed out. And Rebettzen So-and-So is emphatically not daas torah.
So don’t just say you found this funny, make a coherent point as to why you disagree. Because frankly, I’m not sure there is one.
As tripleG has already alluded to, they are British, and as such would not be aware that the American coumterpart to the RSPCA, the Roy,al Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, is the ASPCA.
The ‘several rabbonim’. What, you mean you don’t know them? They’re the ones who apparently who say it’s ossur to vaccinate, and permit children’s internet use in the name of ‘worldliness’, the same rabbonim who say you mustn’t read Harry Potter because it’s kishuf, and that you mustn’t give any money to one who may spend it on cigarettes.
Those rabbonim.
Well, according to the title of this thread, this at least sorts out the whole cigarette to aniyim debate.
Good idea, thanks.
Fathers of Arts?
That’s a very grand title.
OK, it takes me about twenty minutes to find this thread every time I’d like to continue it, and so, with a heavy heart, I perform this vital public service…
Bump.
A can of deodorant. A lighter. Worked for me. Admittedly, it did take about ten minutes, and afterwards the room stank of Lynx. And there was a high risk factor. But, on the plus side, a singed moth.
And finally…
Thank you very much.
And without the quotation marks…
…ok, please.
Let’s just clarify, the question gives no clues as to the poster’s gender.
And the way they ask ‘Well?’ is if anything feminine.
Maybe if I ask nicely this time.
‘Aut viam invenium aut faciam’
Please?