Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
#amdramban #hashtagban
#iaccidentallydoubleposted
#withyoualltheway
Shopping613: In my opinion, it’s one and the same.
And I will fulfil my own request by trying to ignore the incessant trolling and amateur dramatics. This is starting to get ridiculous.
Perhaps some people are too harsh, difficult, insulting, etc. But the ‘DRAMA’ doesn’t come from the offensive content. It doesn’t even come from those who, rightly or wrongly, take offence. It happens because inadvertent comments turn into full-blown dramatic, emotional arguments, with the threads become nauseatingly self-referential and off-topic. The issue is those who cause the ‘drama’ to become the main conversation on the thread (and I think most of us would agree on the most common culprits), and on the remaining posters who allow this to take place (as opposed to simply ignoring it and moving on without them).
Do not feed the ‘drama’
Yekke2:
Certainly I expect that to be the case. That’s why I’d ceased posting. Not as a protest vote, simply because I couldn’t engage with many of these threads, and even the ones I could engage in tended to veer off in a manner that irritated me. So I stopped bothering.
But I decided to, at least for a short period of time, be a little more proactive and try get involved in a meaningful way. Recommending each other interesting and suitable reading material is an interesting topic. So I engaged.
You’re probably right. Recent experience tells me this promising discussion will likely soon veer off course. And when it inevitably does, I’ll sink back into the ether. But for now, I’m going to give it the benefit of the doubt…
Sparkly: Okay… I’m gonna try phrase this as well as I can, and I apologise in advance if you manage to take offence. And that’s my last insincere apology on this thread.
Without meaning to sound harsh, there is literally nothing in your most recent ‘response’ that correlates even vaguely to anything I’d said. And I’m happy to elaborate.
Firstly, you started off with saying ‘thats (sic) VERY insulting’. Nothing in the post before that could have possibly offended you. In fact, I’d apologised for any offence possibly inadvertently caused by my first post.
Your next sentence is also a non-sequitur. I personally had asked you to explain in slightly more detail why you disagreed with Joseph. Telling me some ‘lady judges’ were ‘amazing people’ does not constitute a response in any sense. I’d only chipped in to ask if you were going to attempt to clarify your views, as opposed to simply posting unsubstantiated, emotional statements. The reason I’d asked is because I was following the conversation with interest, it being an interesting topic to discuss. You seemed to disagree with several posters, but you didn’t explain yourself. So I asked you to explain yourself, simply to see if you were merely being provocative or actually had a coherent point to make. And your next post confused me even further.
So I ask again. Are you planning on explaining your viewpoint? Defending it? Challenging others’?
Okay, fair enough, I suppose. Still, it would be easier to give a good recommendation if you perhaps mentioned specific genres that you found interesting. For example, I might recommend Michael Lewis, JK Rowling, Malcolm Gladwell or Terry Pratchett, to pick some at random, but it would be very difficult to say which would suitably answer your question.
OKay, as I thought. Bearing in mind your subtitle, are you going to explain why you believe you’re correct in holding that view? Because Joseph has made some very pertinent, well explained points. I’m not going to say I agree with him, or that I disagree. I’m simply asking why you believe he’s wrong.
P.S. Be assured I didn’t mean to offend anybody, and I apologise if I did.
Perhaps provide a genre you’re particularly interested in? Fiction, non-fiction? Adult, YA, children? Any particular author or series you currently like?
And bear in mind that I doubt the mods will be completely comfortable with people recommending non-Jewish, unsuitable novels on this forum. Just sayin’.
Sparkly: I’ve kind of got used to ignoring certain posters, and/or discussions, but I’ve got to ask: Do you mean what I think you mean?
Yekke2:
My post was intended to be entirely facetious. The ‘deeply held principles’ I was referring to weren’t the kind of deeply held principles you yourself might have, but more the kind of ‘principles’, such as feminism and perpetual victimhood, that certain people use as tools for their ultimately ridiculous aims. I’m happy to elaborate if necessary. I didn’t mean actual sincere beliefs, and I accept full responsibility for the resulting confusion.
I was going to put the phrase in quotes, but that would have undermined the quasi-serious ironic tone I was aiming for. Which I suppose is a fine example of Poe’s Law in action.
#nevermore #irony #banpoeslaw #hashtagban
Yekke2: Sorry, you’ve suffered from Poe’s Law #irony
Basically, the entirely serious and not-at-all jokey message of this thread is that if something interferes in any way with either your comfort or your deeply held principles, then that thing should be abolished. No matter how vital, important and sensible that thing is.
You matter. And by extension, nobody else does.
#wherestheniceinnicetry
#wherestheusintrustgone
#wheresthesoulinsoldieron
#bump #hashtagban
Syag: And now I’m upset I didn’t say that first
#busted #pallas #hashtagban
Sam2: I’d hoped the ‘seriously/not seriously’, as well as blatantly contradicting my own ‘argument’, would suffice to circumvent Poe’s Law. Unfortunately, it still rears it’s ugly head…
#forcryingoutlouditwasajoke #cancelbeinhaz #ironyintheusa #hashtagban
#wellput #hashtagposter
Technicalities, technicalities.
Sure, it’d represent a slight drop in living standards for the families, and sure, the psychological damage incurred all round* would balance out any potential benefit. but think of the principle! Surely proving to our impressionable youngsters the esteem in which we hold their tireless endeavours supersedes any niggling concerns about practicalities, basic facts and kibbud ov ve’eim. Let the revolution begin.
#cancelbeinhaz #yeshivafoodreallyisthatbad #hashtagban
*to the parents at seeing the manner in which their young darlings look after themselves year round; to the younger siblings at having to experience the sheer horror of yeshiva dorm life; to the bochurim being stuck in the same building for a full year; and numerous other concerns… #grouptherapyischeaper
#sigh
#sorrymod29 #kvetches #ironyintheusa
#hashtagban
#pandorasbox
Syag: I’m convinced. #cancelbeinhaz #hashtagban #thanksforthededication
Seriously/not seriously, Bein Hazzmanim as a concept obviously needs a revamp. In it’s current state, it seems to reflect the obvious fallacy that regular yeshiva life is somehow a state of living one needs a break from.
And furthermore, by having the bochurim going home to see their parents, it insinuates the parents’ time (law of averages dictating that the majority of them are themselves not in full time learning) is somehow more valuable than that of the bochurim, who of course spend every waking moment poring over a gemora.
Reversing this process by having parents bring themselves, and their extended family, to the yeshiva to visit the bochurim for the period of beinhaz, would more accurately reflect the respective value of their roles in this temporary world. With the status quo, we really must consider what message we are sending to the next generation.
#cancelbeinhaz #mom&dad2lakewood #hashtagban
Shopping613:
Care to elaborate?
#hashtagban
Mods – I’m a little surprised you let this thread through. It looks as is if it was designed to provoke. I mean, it was either innocuous, in which case it’s prob better to avoid panic, or serious, in which case it’s not really something for a frum forum. I’m not questioning your judgement, simply wondering if you’d considered this.
Person1: The BBC website is also moderated.
Ubiquitin: You may have a point, but there’s a two party system in other places, such as the UK (in practice, at least), and although frum yidden also often identify more strongly with one party than another, they still retain a healthy skepticism, and tend to vote based on a nuanced view of the various policies than simple partisanship.
And that means that on issues that are dissociated from religion, such as gun control, people do not blindly follow ‘their’ party. And the party never takes their support for granted, which means they serve their interests better. Basically, I expect frum yidden to be less misguided and more sensible in their political ideals than simple blind partisanship, as is the case elsewhere, but perhaps I am simply giving them too much credit.
Joseph: I appreciate your approval. And you are absolutely right. The frum interest groups and NGOs generally do an excellent job of working in a non-partisan fashion.
Having looked into the issue of police shootings, I’d like to bring up a simple point. Many in the BLM movement believe that the police actively intend to shoot blacks. I believe that there are certainly bad apples, and we’ve seen proof of those, but you can’t really account for those, and they don’t typify the organisation, and the main cause of blacks being shot is the endemic criminality among the black population. The police as a whole are more guilty of poor responses and bad training then racism. There may be a general subconscious racial bias, but not the issue they claim exists.
29:
>stage whisper<
Yep, things do seem to be looking up a bit.
There is a more general problem about the frum community in America that this thread exposes. Namely, that many of them confuse politics with religion. I’ll explain.
Basically, the Republicans’ general political stance tallies reasonably closely with a frum viewpoint. For example, they support traditional, conservative moral values, they support Israel, and they tend to appeal to middle-class, higher-income voters, a bracket many frum yidden fall into.
Therefore, for a frum yid in America, supporting the GOP, and the more right wing of the party in particular, can feel very natural. And this obvious preference is clearly expressed in the frum media, on websites such as this one, and generally across the board. And this is understandable and usually correct. And due to this alliance, they tend to express solidarity with the party on most issues, including the ones that have little to do with being frum and more to do with being a Republican.
This can mean, in my experience, that they often take the bathwater with the baby, as it were. So you’ll find otherwise sensible people being outright fanatical about issues such as gun control and Obamacare, to pick two excellent examples. And this reflects itself in the way some demonize Clinton whilst ignoring, or downplaying, the obvious foibles of the Donald. And indeed, demonizing the Democrats in general and being far too fawning when it comes to the Republicans. And this blind partisanship can be very confusing to someone used to a more nuanced, and rather critical, view of politics.
#maybeitstheendlesshashtagging
If they’re not fluent in English, I apologise completely and unreservedly.
And if English is their first language, as I assumed, then I don’t feel as terrible for perhaps calling out a prevaricator. I just sometimes get a little irritated at some of the stream-of-consciousness onslaughts that invariably confuse and disrupt, especially when it’s inconsequential and possible false.
#whywhatsobadaboutteenagers?
absan:
I’m just wondering. Wouldn’t a psychologist be able to spell ‘psychologist’?
absan:
Sure. I tried to read your post above, and whilst you seemed to make very good points, you do seem very fond of ellipses.
For the record, and I apologise sincerely if you already knew, this is an ellipsis: …
Taking into account … and .., you used ellipses 63 times in your post. And for me, and I really hope you don’t take this the wrong way, it made the post kind of difficult to read. Sorry, that’s all.
absan:
What’s with all the ellipses?
Thank you. Much appreciated.
Sigh…
Fine. I’ll clarify. Not necessarily actual teenagers, merely people acting in a manner generally typical of teenagers.
Person1:
Firstly, a warm hello. For an Israeli, your English is impeccable. Thanks for a good question, well phrased. Personally, I certainly understand where you’re coming from, and not knowing you personally I would be hesitant to make any blanket judgement.
But I know of successful shidduchim where one partner is far louder than the other. Indeed, in many cases the more introverted, thoughtful nature of one perfectly matches and complements the ‘louder’ nature of the other, and vice versa. There have also been plenty of instances where very extroverted people go out, and have nothing to say to each other. The process is to find a bashert, and being loud or quiet is often immaterial.
Well done, superbly put. I’m just disappointed this even became an issue. It’s not been an issue since the nature of this blog, relatively impersonal (In a good way) and well-moderated, means that gender hasn’t, and doesn’t, cause division. Frankly, stupidity causes division. And a stupid section for the CR, whilst definitely a good idea, is difficult to enforce. Although I personally wouldn’t rule it out.
PBA:
Thank you. Just thank you.
It had to be said, I just hadn’t the strength to say it.
Syag:
I certainly hear your point, and agree with you up until a point. In fact, I’m glad to have got an erudite, well argued response to engage with, as those have been few and far between.
I don’t think the issue is the absence of good posters due to holidays. A quick perusal of the threads reveals that plenty of those are present and posting. I just feel that the fact that certain posters seem to be less active, despite clearly being present, is due to the prevailing tone of the CR at the present moment.
With regard to your ‘displacement theory, I have looked to engage. Interesting discussion is why I participate, and I did try to find an inroad. But the reason why I’ve found it so frustrating is that certain very active posters seem to be setting the tone, and leading the discussion in particular directions. And others have followed. And that is their prerogative. Nobody is doing anything ‘wrong’, as it where. I just dislike the tone immensely, and by the looks of things, so does Meno, amongst significant others.
In the past I have got involved with the express purpose of striking some life into the CR. But there’s plenty of activity in the CR at the moment. And some of it is great. But finding the gems amongst the dirt, and trying to have a good discussion between the rubbish, is difficult. You feel that by getting involved, the tone will improve. Perhaps.
But I find it difficult to engage in a thread moaning at the Mods for ridiculous reasons, a girl going to Las Vegas, boy’s who smoke ‘not being frum’, a college student trying to high-five someone, or hair dye. And even the good threads get sidetracked into incoherent, over-dramatised mulch.
Of course, there’s some interesting stuff too. But when even a decent thread like this one turns into a ridiculous teenage gender war, I’ve lost all patience. I mean, seriously. Look at the post following yours. I find it impossible to engage with that. Ignoring it is a solution, but that’s not what people are doing. Again, nobody is ‘wrong’. But people have tastes, and it seems quite a few agree that the tone tastes bad.
If I sound jaded and annoyed, it’s because I am. But on a positive note, it appears much of this has passed and things seem to be improving. And I don’t appear to be alone on this. PBA has made a far more pertinent and succinct point on the aforementioned ‘Moan at the Mods’ thread. And I couldn’t agree more.
Meno:
Thank you. Sincerely. I couldn’t agree more. I’ve been waiting for quite a long time just to see if there’s any discussion that follows even a vaguely interesting topic in something approaching a coherent fashion.
I considered making a plea for more interest (shameless self-plug for the #KTCRIM), but that didn’t seem to be the issue. There are plenty of reasonably good topics, and plenty of people are getting involved. But the tone just seems to be off, and it slightly disconcerts me. I simply haven’t the patience to decipher much of it. Mostly, it’s just frustrating. I’m happy to elaborate further, and more specifically, I just haven’t the strength right now.
Perhaps the CR has simply moved on, even in the relatively short period of time I’ve been here. I think it might be a good idea to dedicate this thread to figuring out what’s actually going on. Because the really established posters, the reason I ever got involved in the first place, seem to have voted with their feet, and are nowhere to be seem.
Syag, Sam, Shopping613, lightbrite and several others, your only error has been to engage with a poster who seems to have no other recourse but to call them trolls and cast ridiculous aspersions. I would wonder if this poster is even aware of the nuanced meaning of the word ‘troll’ in a CR context. I haven’t been on this forum for long, but I would have hoped that this kind of discussion would have been given a wide berth by those who should know better, and I include myself in that. If only there were some way of measuring the number of posters, especially established, informed and erudite ones, who simply glance at this nonsense and move on. Of course, the general discourse is often as interesting and thought-out as ever, but certain posters have been reprehensible at best. This phenomenon perhaps deserves a wider discussion, I’m just unpleasantly surprised at some of the meaningless accusations been thrown around, especially by one quite new poster in particular.
Syag:
Wonderfully put. I suppose that when you look at those getting involved on more worthy threads, but ignoring this one, the silent majority seems to have agreed with you. Many of the established users, such as yourself, are giving this thread the attention it deserves. It’s survival as a topic is due to it’s tangential link to the far more interesting general topic of smoking in general.
But the opening post is patently misguided. I made the mistake of getting involved earlier, to my shame, in an effort to stem some of the misguided vitriol that has been directed against smokers. But moving on to the next thread is a far better response. Certainly there seems to be a surfeit of really interesting, informed conversation at the moment, despite interesting topics and threads being relatively common. This thread could have been an interesting discussion about the impacts of smoking, but it’s nothing of the sort.
Fair enough. I did actually write that you obviously intended to be provocative, but my original post was lost. I suppose that was a fair response to lightbrite’s assumption, I simply found the analogy between regular distinct Jewish dress and the yellow star disconcerting. My apologies.
There’s plenty of admirable sentiments here, but also a measure of hyperbole. You can’t overstate the severity of smoking, but you can be far too harsh on those who smoke. And some of the statements up until this point regarding bochurim who smoke have been nothing short of ridiculous.
As has been repeatedly mentioned, virtually all of these bochurim start young due to social pressure, and find it very difficult to stop when older and more mature. These bochurim do not fall into any particular category, and include many who are excellent bochurim in every respect. As such it is utterly wrong to make any judgement on their character or religiosity. And in my considerable experience, even heavy smokers quit immediately and completely when they get married. That’s not to say there aren’t exceptions, but these constitute a tiny minority.
And I say this as a bochur who has never smoked, and dislike it immensely. But some of the vitriol on this thread has been excessive to say the least.
With regard in particular to the basic dress of your average frum Torah Jew, e.g. white shirt and black trousers, this is not necessarily ‘old’. It is a relatively common modern style. What marks it out is it’s formality, and it’s uniformity. Or in other words, that we all wear it, all the time (I’ve focused on men for simplicity).
The two primary reason, amongst others, for this mode of dress are relatively simple. Dignity and identity. Firstly, dignity. If you consider the alternatives, the most common casual modes of dress amongst the general population, i.e. jeans, t-shirts, etc., apart from often being immodest, simply do not convey the dignity apropos of a Torah Jew. By dressing in a formal and relatively distinguished manner, we are conveying a desire to dress in a manner fitting to the way we aspire to lead our lives.
And identity too is important. The ‘yellow star’ analogy is offensive and misguided. Maintaining a strong distinct identity is important, indeed crucial, to the effective observance of Judaism. Other cultures dress differently for precisely this reason, and feel no need to apologise or self-flagellate for doing so. And when what is being preserved is a not simply a cultural identity, but a religious one, it gains extra levels of significance and importance.
I would like to add that nothing of what I’ve said above means less homogeneous dress, whilst maintaining dignity and a Jewish identity, is invalid or wrong. Simply that this is a correct and important practice, and should be recognised as such.
And on a personal note, when I travel or simply go out, being dressed in this way, clearly Jewish, dressed more formally, and in a far more dignified manner than most around me, certainly enhances my connection to yiddishkeit and my inherent value as a Jew. To paraphrase Shakespeare and/or Mark Twain,
“Clothes make the man”