n0mesorah

Dear Mentsch,

“By celebrating every siyum with food it cements the association and gives more credence to the idea of using a siyum to get out of fasting.”

Is that rationalization from the biography? I don’t think it is meant that way.

It’s funny that I overheard Reb Dovid talking about it and still don’t know about it. And it’s also funny that nobody managed get a straight answer from him.

Just to remind you where this thread was when you joined.

The OP want’s to use the eruv with the approval of the YV. We are still following Rav Moshe’s opinion as the RY of the just departed generation maintained they heard directly from him. Rav Dovid, Rav Shmuel Birnbaum, Rav Belsky, and others. What other Poskim feel comfortable with isn’t going to help change the status quo. The Brooklyn eruv has too much grief on it to become accepted by the YV.

You may have a bunch to say why it should not be that way. But the historical fact is that this is how it played out. Rav Moshe did not endorse any eruv in Brooklyn at any point. And as of today there is still no consensus to move away from that position.

So you do realize, that while you may permit him to carry in Brooklyn, your not helping the OP.

If we agree on that, then we can move on.

Dear Always,

Your argument seems to add up to that the working people should learning more. Both during their work and by taking off more.

Most Kolleliet do not learn enough today. Money is not the primary factor for people leaving kollel. Those that do, are unusually saintly yeshivaliet and yearn to be back in Beis Medrash the rest of their lives.

You seem to value making money much more than I do. Maybe that is the crux of our debate here.

Dear Ujm,

Not do degenerate either of them, but to think that Rav Aaaron or the Satmar Rav could have brought anything similar to what Rav Moshe brought to the questions of the generation is highly absurd. Both of those giants you mentioned, were more committed to raising the people over the bar, than to elucidating what the bar actually is.

On the OP.

I agree with your take.

As well as the definition of frum given by Yserbius.

However, ‘Yeshivish’ can also be used to refer a certain cultural type.

It should be noted, that frum is not the same as halacha.

Halacha just means that they are meticulous in their practice.

Frum signifies a deeper religious drive.

So we have three categories in each group. Member in good standing. Meticulous observer of halacha. and Frum.

It’s worth keeping in mind, that the slide that we notice as we look to the left is mostly on the first category. Since these three categories all blend, we try to talk about superiority. Much like how Lubavitchers may pontificate on the other threads.

Dear Avira,

Rav Weinberg quotes him as a legitimate source in his essays on the formation of the Mishna. On par with Krochmal, Hoffman, and Halevi.

The way American Yeshivos learn is from Rav Aharon? Really!?

The very slow pace today is from a lack of hasmadah. This is not what Reb Leib had in mind. Also, the proliferation of maggidei shiur that know so little compared to the previous generations.

“It works.”

Of course it works. Even if it all fails, we would still call it working.

But this is not the ideal. Though the Yeshivos can still be smug now, that may not be true in the next generation.

Dear Sechel,

If you are happy pursuing Torah and Mitzvos where you are, there is no reason to educate yourself about what other Jews think and do differently. And there are many pitfalls in doing so.

I don’t know why you think it is worthwhile to debate who moshiach can be, on this forum. It will not help your ambition of being a good yid.

“Most historical machlokes between chasidusen have been settled.”

Some in theory, others in reality.

Very few have been settled in both.

The Aruch Hashulchan and other poskim is definitely not what stopped Rav Moshe from a clear psak.

I don’t understand what you gain by repeating that Rav Moshe was mechudash. You were trying to argue that the Brooklyn Eruv is valid even according to Rav Moshe’s opinion. Then it doesn’t come in to play if he or you termed his opinion mechudash.

I thought the problem with CJ is the lack of commitment to the Mitzvos. If you can delineate what exactly makes CJ heretical, than you can save Avi Weiss a lot of grief. Alternatively, you can place him firmly on the Conservative side of the line. Which he has tenaciously resisted.

But alas you cannot. Other than grandiose claims that make no sense, your arguments on these baiting topics get you nowhere. You’ll try a few more times, and then you’ll go silent. I don’t take these issues personally, so I am ready to answer all your revisionism honestly.

Dear Anonymous,

The Rabbinical staff of JTS was almost exclusively Orthodox until 1960. It was an institution for both Orthodox and Conservative students.

“Rav Moshe never offered reasons to allow”

Black on white, a large part of his teshuva. Otherwise he would have felt compelled to stop them. And he would have considered the eruv to be Chillul Shabbos.

Around the time of WWI, there were probably more Rabbonim from Poland, Lita, Ukraine, or Russia, than from all of Western Europe combined. Germany just had it’s best period for the Jews. Eastern European Jews had been steadily migrating for forty years.

There were over a dozen Chassidishe Rebbes that came to America before Rav Moshe. And a similar number of yeshivos. The problem was the assimilation of the second generation immigrants. It had nothing to do with the brand of Orthodoxy.

Dear Yserbius,

Of the top of my head, cars was 1950. It’s a big line from outside Conservative. But within CJ it’s not so real. The upright still do not drive on Shabbos. And there is a significant amount that only drives where they believe it is permitted. As we know, electricity in general is a major problem as we get to the edges of OJ.

It comes down to this. If you believe that the real meaning of life is to march around how great we are as Jews and we represent the ultimate fidelity to the Revelation, than the CJ is on the wrong side of the divide. With a chunk of the LW of OJ. So go on parading yourself as God’s Gift. It’s a good fit for others who parade for other abominations.

But if you believe that Hashem instills everything with meaning and purpose and all that matters is to serve Him, then you know with all your being that these labels are the creation of man. And while they may be useful, they are meaningless in the Ultimate. When we look at the American Jewish scene from the angle of observance, it is one depressing slide until it falls of a cliff after Mainstream Conservative Judaism.

I spent a lot of the day looking through some storage for a letter.

Dear Yserbius,

Ohhhhhh, that is what you mean!

Different story. They are is dishonest as the other publishers and edited a great man’s thinking to do match their own. They are too late. There has been much written about Rav Hirsch’s Torah and even more given over verbally. Down the road someone will print the corrections.

Dear Always,

In our times, employment is about earning salary in a trained position.

In earlier times, one used his physical skills to create what was needed.

Like milking a goat or growing vegetables.

So today it’s more like the kollel guy who does the shopping and fills the car with gas.

There are not so many that can always be found be their gemara.

Those guys earn the support they get. (If they get.)

And that genre is centuries old.

I don’t know how you got that disagreeing with the Magen Avraham’s interpretation of mefulash is mechudash.

על מבוכה זו דנו הרבה

Conservative came out and said that Halacha is purely a product of what is accepted by yidden so therefore….. Some parts of Orthodoxy, especially the Left Wing of Orthodoxy has been struggling for a response ever since.

Dear Youdont,

This post of yours is what confuses me.

YOU ““Rav Moshe disagreed regarding their halachic concerns, because there were city’s that established eruvin whose population was greater than 600,000 (but he had his own reason to oppose).””

ME “And therefore? Rav Moshe’s teshuvos lay out his reasoning. I don’t know what is missing here.”

YOU I am referring to the fact that these gedolim on the Manhattan kk could not have opposed the eruv for the same reason as Rav Moshe. His opposition was almost exclusive to Manhattan (and later on Brooklyn). However, the others signors seemed to be opposing any eruv in a city containing shishim ribo. Or according to Rav Aharon all city eruvin past a present.

End of your post, Now me again.

So I am left very befuddled how you just do away Rav Moshe with a claim of misinformation. (Which nobody managed to get Reb Dovid to recant.) Rav Moshe goes through all the reasons why Manhattan as a reshus harrabim would be problematic. He offers alternatives why it could be permitted. His result is not to rely on these permissions. And that leaves us – very clearly – that Rav Moshe held the eiruv is not good enough. You can disagree with Rav Moshe. But what do you mean that it is permitted according to Rav Moshe, when he himself concluded not to use these permissions?

Are you claiming that Rav Moshe does not agree with his own interpretation of reshus harrabim according to the SA? Because the entire teshuva is a straight line. Nowhere does Rav Moshe write that we should count the exact population.

Just because Rav Moshe disagreed with the machmirim, it doesn’t mean that he disagreed with Rav Moshe.

Other than the misinformation claim, which I think is the wrong way to read Rav Moshe’s teshuvos – there doesn’t seem to be any way to claim that Rav Moshe permitted an eiruv in Brooklyn.

He had a good reason to be vague. The exact number isn’t an issue according to Rav Moshe’s shitta. You didn’t answer why this wasn’t cleared up with Rav Dovid.

Eruvin is to localized to be inconsistent in ones chumros. But still I agree that people take chumros in eruvin that are way above their general standards. This is not relevant to the epicenter of BP or Flatbush eruvin fights. I think the YV lost some battles by being to frum. But surely your not insinuating that such an attitude is based on Rav Moshe.

So you know nothing about Rav Aaron. That’s okay. But don’t go on and on about how it’s only halacha. If you accept Rav Besser anecdote as true, that there can just as easily be all kinds of meta reasons for the mattirim. This can easily become absurd. Maybe they only built the eiruv because they thought that it was accepted to so.

And I reread your post. Here it is:

…after an Agudas Harabbnim meeting, which Rav Moshe did not attend, he asked Rav Tuvia what occurred at the meeting.

Rav Tuvia was there. Why? Rav Moshe was not. It’s news to me that Rav Tuvia was a member of Hisachdus in the 1950s.