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Dear Da,
I couldn’t disagree with you more.
Very little of the Toras Habesht has been preserved and none of it is novel for his day. He wasn’t an innovator in what he was teaching. The controversy was who he was teaching it to. There is nothing in the entire breadth of early chassidus that can be considered a new teaching in terms of a scholastic method. Though there is a lot of taking one known scholastic method and disregarding all the others. For example, exclusive use of Kavanos HaAri.
I don’t know who you are quoting about the Beshtian Teachings. Either you are understood it wrong or I strongly disagree with ‘pretty much everybody’. Along the lines of Neville’s point, it’s been noted that it difficult to distinguish the core teachings of the Besht from those of the Gra, AndSefer Tanya from Nefesh Hachaim. Later on we have Rav Nachman, The Kotzker, and others who incorporated many novel ideas into their teachings. These were not transmitted to them from the Early Chassidim. It is clearly their own approaches.
Us Litvaks lived ina very unique situation. The Litvishe Mesorah does not go back thousands of years. There is no model for the litvishe set up among the Rishonim or Gaonim. THe Jews settled in Lita for just five or six centuries. It is justified by what it produced. Not where it came from. Other than Iran or Yemen (And even then most of them are ignorant of their own traditions what is ancient and what is modern.), nowhere and nobody can claim anything close to a thousand year mesorah since the formation of the State of Israel. (The first half of the nineteenth century saw all the other ancient communities of the Mid East go through foundational changes.)
It can be debated if there was an original nusach or not. But the more we go back through the last millenium, the more we find even larger differences among the European Congregations. So it’s more likely that the Chassidim and the Misnagdim created their own uniform nusach than there having been any standard before them. Anyways, every nusach follows the same basic structure that the Misha speaks about. It’s all just minor changes to whatever nusach was used in the early days of European Jewry. It seems petty to me. As long as they daven for real, it’s fine with me.
You have to be kidding that observance in halachah wasn’t in constant flux throughout the time Yidden settled Eastern Europe. The entire history of Poland etc. is one timeline of seeking an exact code for communal practice. The is no correlation between the minhagim of the same town in 16th century, the 18, and the 20th. The bottom line didn’t change much but the communal bar for normative observance was never stable.
I hope everyone understands that this is a historical disscusion and is not about the yiras shamayim of previous generations. First we avoid any conclusion about Chasidim and all other groups. Second, we examine what actually ocurred. And third, we try to see what changed and why. Only then is possible to attempt an evaluation of what was a ‘better’ approach toward the future that we now live in.
Dear Youdont,
I was offline for most of the last month and did not have the headsapce for this thread. You posted some really out there stuff recently, and I won’t bother calling you out. I don’t know meseches eruvin but that won’t be a problem here. I now see that you don’t have a clue about the original sources and what they actually say. That is why you are so convinced of your side of the argument.
1) If the OP would have posted ‘who cares if the eruv is kosher or not’ and we got on him, would you also defend him because of your opinion regarding the eruv? Don’t tell me your reasons again. Explain to me why someone who wants to use an eruv without regard for it’s merits should not be told off. Even if it has merits, he is still wrong.
2) You prattle on about Rav Moshe having wrong info. But Rav Dovid insisted on it and Rav Elyashiv agreed with him. Rav Dovid was alive for the whole controversy. Why didn’t anybody clarify the facts with him? I know the answetr. In thirty years you will be sayinfg that Rav Dovid also would agree. So just shrug off Rav Moshe the same as Rav Dovid. There is no reason to say that Rav Moshe never forbade this exact eruv, because even if he did it would not bother you.
3) Included in the talmidim of Rav Moshe that I know are two that actively build eruvin. They both would never carry in Brooklyn. Rav Moshe was clear his whole life not to build eruvin in Brooklyn. The teshuva opens up with that he doesn’t agree. Rav Belsky spoke about it many times. It is silly to claim more knowledge from his teshuvos than the many people who heard it directly from him. This was common knowledge when the eruv was put up twenty years ago.
4) What is your argument about Rav Moshe:
A – Rav Moshe would permit today’s eruv even though he didn’t permit the eruv in the 70’s.
B – Rav Moshe only forbade then because of wrong information.
C – Rav Moshe never forbade any eruv.
D – Rav Moshe is unclear on the matter.
E – Rav Moshe didn’t write exactly why this eruv is no good and that is enough to move on.5) Rav Tuvya’s story clearly shows that there were meetings about eruvin in the 50’s. This is what I was posting about the eruv vaad. Rav Aaron and Rav Moshe were trying to avoid specific pitfalls. You had enough chances to call out eruvin that aren’t properly constructed or maintained. It is all the same issue and issur. Whatever the reason that an eruv becomes passul, it’s the same problem. You want to throw around that one has to know all the halachah to be part of the conversation, but somehow can’t imagine why real life eruvin would be problematic.
6) Brooklyn is more than 12 mil. Rav Moshe never meant that Boro Park alone or Flatbush alone have 600k. Any statician would laugh at the idea of Rav Moshe’s teshuvah being a source for an exact number. Nowhere does Rav Moshe say to take a count.
At some point I’ll just give up on trying to get answers and I will post the whole thing myself.
Dear Neville,
Seichel was implicitly disavowing the rabbi in that story. I don’t know why you think that random Chabadtzkers owe us some official declarations.
I think that Chabad is very good at being Chabad, and I find them very useful when I’m out in the sticks. One can walk into any Chabad gathering and instantly be invited to have a good time. They don’t shun outsiders. Unless they keep asking annoying, whiny questions. Which sums up these threads. If we would be stupid enough to have a round table debate of a dozen different groups, Chabad would easily land in the top five.
Just some history.
Kiruv in Eastern Europe was originally the work of Telshe and Navordok. Chabad has two novelties in Kiruv. A system to target individual Jews with specific mitzvos. And complete disregard for the indifferent modernized face that many assimilated Jews show toward Judaism.
Dear Neville,
Sechel is saying that not every individual’s mindset reflects on the teachings of the group.
If you want to know the teachings, then study them.
Dear Qwerty,
Menachem posted “I think I was clear enough..”
‘Enough’ is the keyword.
If you know what crazy is then you understand the reference.
Dear Shalom,
I do not agree. What system are you talking about? The MSM is not capable of this. The truth is too expensive. It’s cheaper and more in demand to just lie on social media.
Dear Neville,
Why do you see new laws as a possible threat to freedom?
Serious question.
Dear Akuperma,
Insulting Trump is the wrong move. We all know how he will react.
The other candidates should be pointing out that he failed all his objectives as well as the pandemic. And then he had the nerve to not have any platform for the 2020 election.
Dear Coffee,
Hutchinson is a real Conservative. Almost no democrats would pick his policies. Most republicans won’t either.
The choices are far out liberal, liberal, slightly moderate, fake conservative, or completely far out and fake without getting around to any policies.
Any actual conservative get’s nowhere.
Dear Yecheill,
Christie is a persona cult Republican, just like Trump. You have to explain why we should take one against the other if there are other options.
Dear Neville,
All the Republican candidates should be pointing out Trump’s failures. But they are not. And it’s mind boggling. The Republican Party has real leadership issues. A bunch of phony alphas that are exposed as wimps. McConnell seems to be the only leader. And he closes the curtains before he does any actual leadership.
It seems like the Republican base is motivated by one thing: electing losers.
I wish it wasn’t true. But the primary history is extensive.
Dear Always,
Your completely wrong here. Just because democracy overcame Jan. 6, it doesn’t mean that it wasn’t a threat to democracy.
Hundreds of people have been sentenced for entering the Capitol. Get your facts somewhere near the target.
Some factions came armed to the teeth with battle plans. The Capitol was thoroughly trashed. Look up the details.
The Wagner Group’s march on Moscow is still really sketchy. I would love some real information. But you seem to be allergic.
Everyone underestimated the threat. The Mayor did not want a repeat of the previous summer. With a little less luck, there would have been some dead congressmen. No comparison to Bridgegate.
You need to clarify what you are trying to say.
My theory is that you are theorizing before doing the research.
I’m not taking away anyone’s beard. None of my posts are reliable. I keep forgetting words.
“Allegorizing chazal without a mesorah or rishonim who say so is possible apikorsus.”
It’s defintely a problem for those who need to defend everything without learning anything.
Wait! Wait! The Litvaks built their yeshivos on the premise that by the time their sons are bar mitzva they would have completed most of chumash with rashi as well as the mishna. I could go on, but the point is that knowing Kol Hatorah Kula was a given by the Litvaks. Also learning slow isn’t an issue.
Rav Chaim didn’t actually write what the OP claimed. The Litvaks considered those that forbade shavers to be completely wrong on the issue. It’s not worth debating because all the militant ignorami come out with their nonsense. If you like your beard you can keep it. I’m taking it away from you.
Being at your gemara before dawn is an excellent way to be prepared for davening. Litvaks have a full chazaros hashatz at their workplaces. I know several Litvaks that do not leave their gemara to daven mincha with a minyan. If no minyan shows up, they daven alone.
I would like to point out, that the OP has not posted since. It’s not about Chabad as much as his own thin skin. Every group has their issues. Okay, outsiders don’t get Chabad. They are not expected to. They measure Chabad by their own standards, not Chabad’s standards. Why is it a big deal to you if you claim to only know Chabad?
Dear Yserbius,
Your last paragraph is ridiculous. He wasn’t Governer during the pandemic. Murphy was. You mean the State shutdown. He didn’t close the beaches. There was no budget to keep them open. He didn’t go to the Shore. He went to his own house on Island Beach. The media didn’t do their jobs on him. Ever. They wouldn’t have known about Bridgegate if not for the whistleblower.
Dear Ubiquitin,
I would have to go through and then post everything from the basics. Until then I cede you the argument. Though I still think we are coming from different perspectives more than we disagree.
And, the I-can-find-better-kashrus-then-the-yidden-who-manage-the-food-business types are all frauds.
“….. it’s people joining a community with the intention of being essentially iconoclasts.”
That description is applicable to Avraham Avinu.
Real religious people do not conform to communities. They set the value standard for the rest of society. Secularists get all caught up in dress and culture and calling out the uncouth.
I thought the strategy of giving up Gush was to defend Israel from the air with the Iron Dome.
Israel can’t just defend it’s land borders with so many Arabs living and working within the Green Line.
“You can’t have it both ways; not wanting to conform and then complaining when people don’t want much to do with you.”
That could be a mantra for secluarism! A deeply religious person does not conform or compimise, yet understands that all of us share a meaningful connection.
The fact that some people are difficult to accomadate, doesn’t make me exempt from giving of my assets.
Dear Ubiqutin,
Rov doesn’t help for beliefs. Heter and heter can’t be a mixture.
Just a reminder that I’m not lloking anything up. It is all of the top of my head. I’m beimg too lazy to look up the sources I dimly recall.
On your points,
1) I understand them the same. Maybe I’m wrong. Should I elaborate?
2) If you give me exact sources I’ll get to it. Still, this only from the perspective of the consumer.
If you hate other Yiden because they lost their way, is there any place for them to come back to?
Think about it. I believe it answers both topics.
Dear Gadol,
I thought Froggie wanted to add a thread about a different Moshiach.
Dear Ujm,
Agreed. But it explains why RCA doesn’t benefit from speaking up more. They would either have to answer why they disagree with Gordimer or why he is correct. It would quickly spiral into a theological debate. Such a result would only legetimize OO.
Dear Ubiquitin,
When I posted about rov, I assumed it was about a distributor that didn’t sell. I think I got that wrong. But If it was sold, what could use bittul? It’s all heter.
Now that it’s officially of topic, we can just discuss rov.
You wrote:
“The fact that something WAS avoidable doesn’t change anything. Issur neveila WAS avoidable by shechting. nontheless if I intentionally create neveila and it ACCIDENTLY gets mixed up with kosher meat it is batul (again barring the exceptions to bitul mentioned above).”
To avoid initial confusion let me put it in one sentence. We could always go back and forth. I agree with you in application of yesh lo matirin. I was thinking in concept because the post I was responding to, was only in concept.
I understand that it needs to be accidental because rov is only a matir of a mixture. And by definition can’t replace a different matir.
That’s two sentences. Let me try again.
The concept yesh lo matirin means that rov can be matir when the only problem is the issur within the mixture.
from the opening paragraph of the first teshuva on the matter, it is clear that RAv Moshe was dealing with a known precedent.
I happen to know that such set-ups were already being called chalev yisroel in the early 1900s.
Almost all the non hungarians used chalav hakompanies.
Also, we are ignoring the history of otherwise frum yidden that used cholov akum.
The RCA had Gordimer responding to OO.
He wasn’t any good at it, so it is not surprising that they didn’t get in line behind him.
Rav Weinberg quotes Frankel in the fourth chelek of his teshuvos.
Sadly, I couldn’t find it online. Many parts of Torah are being cancelled in our day.
Dear Avira,
Rav Moshe’s words on the synopsis of his own teshuva about chalev hacompanies.
מדינה אין להחמיר
Rav Belsky was not a talmid of Rav Moshe. On many kashrus issues Rav Belsky was more machmir. Especially in his personal diet.
I have a whole bunch of posts that I’m not sure which thread to put them on. Since this one was hijacked multiple times, I’ll put them here.
See the last teshuva in the Rama that Chodosh is a chumrah and most people aren’t careful about it.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19551&st=&pgnum=136
It also seems like lack of food wasn’t the issue.
The people who try to be machmir on this generally have no idea what they are talking about.
The majority of the chometz that is in your typical local jewish grocery store, was purchased from a jewish distributor. Hence, the entire stock is a problem of chometz shavar alav hapesach until at least the summer. All dry goods from heimeshe brands could have been in the distributor’s warehouse until the winter. There is some chometz that is not even fully rotated until several years. The kosher food economy is self reliant. The further one goes from the kosher retailer, the less of an overview there is on all matters of the supply train. There isn’tmuch certainty who all owned all the chometz that is currently in Wal-Mart.
There is no reason for the local kosher grocery to mark what he brought in after pesach, because that was also owned by a Yid befor Pesach and was sold to a Goy. The grocer has no way of knowing where and when to draw the line on what was sold over Pesach. The same goes for the distributor. It would be very costly to keep track of it. And you Mr. Machmir has not offered to pay for it. I have news for you. Wal-Mart is not tracking this either. Nobody really is. There is a basic awareness of the national distiributing network and one major distributor and several smaller ones are known to be problematic. Nobody is watching if one of the smaller jewish distributors sellsout to a nonjew. This applies equally to chometz that was or wasn’t sold. When we shop by a Jewish Grocery there the knoweldge that they are largely working within the network and all their chometz was properly sold. There is no such assumption with buying from nonjews. I’m not saying it’s a problem, but it is definitely not a chumrah to use an unkown venue in place of the entire kosher food network.
I assume that all post pesach bread is from flour that may have been sold. Do you buy your bread from Wal-Mart for a month? Do you avoid bread crumbs in all jewish resturants all year? Hard alchohol? Beer that is served by a local simcha?
This is not chumros. It is not even hpocrisy. It’s ignorance. Such people have no idea how kosher food works and are a hindarance to enabling kosher food.
Dear Ubiquitin,
This is a very late response to what I was thinking when I posted. It was from my memory then and it still is. I don’t know when I will learn the topic again. It deserves proper sources.
I understood the scenario as, the Jewish Distributor that refused to sell his chometz has sold to a variety of stores that we can’t clarify exactly. Assuming that we have a mixture and are attempting to use rov, it would not permit the distributor to do so, because he could have sold at the point of issur. Once there is a matir at any point, we don’t use rov where the matir is a possibility. When one willfully ignores the matir, then we do not allow them to use the rov at all.
There can be a strong argument that we do not care about the mixture to begin with because the consumer isn’t doing an issur or knowing that the purchase is assur. But if we assume that the retailor’s stock is all mixed to the point that there is nothing stopping us from going after rov, than the phrohibition from the distributor should never be removed by making a mixture out of it. Because that phrohibition was avoidalble with a clear matir.
PS I’m assuming that the sale of an assimilated Jew’s chometz is valid.
We have the same problems and will never admit it. So we atttack Chabad to make ourselves feel better.
Dear Always,
Eiruvin that are kosher, are almost always kosher lechatchila.
There are people that don’t carry in some/most/all eiruvin.
The Brooklyn Eiruv has many subdivisions. The consensus varies in each neighborhood.
Dear Youdont,
I will post how I understand Rav Moshe’s opinion when you answer the question.
Is your perspective helping the OP with his dilemma? Do you think that your posts here would help respond to his detractors? [Do you even understand what I am getting at with these questions?]
PS Of all the talmidim of Rav Moshe that I met that are okay with using wipes on Shabbos, cholov hacompanies, and turning off gas burners on Yom Tov, none are okay with the Brooklyn eiruv. This includes some serious talmidei chachamim that are renowned for paskening sheilos.
Wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is SQUARE ROOT a new name for an old timer?
Dear Zaphod,
That people aren’t backing down out of convenience.
Dear Avira,
“Yabia, how is one close to Hashem when they flout His will and aren’t interested in keeping what He said to do?
Mesilas yeshorim perek 1 – mitzvos bring us close to Hashem. Aveirod bring us further from him.”
Doing Mitzvos is not the same as following Halacha. Being exact in mitzvos is not the same as being exact in halacha. This is an elementary point to following the themes of Mesilas Yesharim.
Dear Yserbius,
People are keeping halacha for the fun of it! It is part of our cultural acceptance. I have to keep as more halacha than Family Jones to keep my sense of self or our standing in the community.
Dear Avira,
Chabad is much closer to Chassidus as the Baal Shem intended it.
Lakewood? Driving a bus route.
Dear Always,
A chossid is not the term for one who finds favor by Hashem.
The classic term is ‘tzaddik’.
Dear Thelittle,
The purpose of defining these terms is to grasp the way the Torah is intended to impact our lives.
We jabeling people. We are examing the Torah’s sway on our society in light of our cultural differences.
‘Frum’ in the OP is synonoumous with ‘Ehrlich’.
It means one who posseses a lifelong ambition to perform mitzvos.
Such precious yidden seem to be scattered throughout the the different cultural groups.
Dear Sechel,
The spread of chassidus goes through phases. The same as all parts of Torah. Right now things are on a down phase. People stopped learning because of covid. And we are still lacking for it.
Dear Mentsch,
Thanks for the quote! It is not like I undertood. Though it is not Rav Chaim’s chiddush.
In general, I’m not against the sentiment you are expresing here.
Dear Da,
“Do we have records of anyone else ever doing such a thing?”
It’s historical tradition.
We have similiar traditions about the Ari, Vilna Gaon, Reb Shlomo Eiger, and even more recent. What is the problem here? People studied a lot of Torah.