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Dear Health,
If you knew a way to punish people out of drug dependency, you could be a millionaire.
Death penalty and life imprisonment is something to consider when a detective cannot fabricate evidence and invent suspects to advance his career. But that is a different topic. Are you seriously advocating the death penalty for drug use?Dear Two,
k. My friends that are non-violent and are okay with police, buy, sell, and take drugs in safe suburban neighborhoods. The Police have not been able to stop the spread of drugs in these communities, even though there is a lot of cooperation between residents and the Police. How in the world would Police stop drugs in Fashion District, LA Garfield Park, CHI or South Bronx, LA?Dear Abba,
The evidence that he resisted, is very, very, sketchy. At best, he was intoxicated or nervous. “If a cop tells you to do something you do it.” In a Police State. A story in BP. Teenager sitting in a parked vehicle. Cop: Move the car! Teen: I don’t have a license. Cop. Move the car! Teen: I don’t have a license. Cop: Move the !@#$%^ car, or I will have you arrested! teen moves car. Cop books him for driving with out a license. [Teen paid court fees, and had one year of probation.]Okay. Let’s see how this works. How would marriage make life meaningful?
Dear 29.
He became a double agent.Of the ten countries that got hit hardest by the pandemic, the U. S. is ranked last in preventing major outbreaks.
“I don’t agree with the fact that it has to be so diificult”
And you are right. It is not a fact. Not even an opinion. It is very close to an open lie.
Our community has twisted everything to make it about the shidduch. Like I am meaningless if I do not get one.
Dear Two,
j. I lived in a notorious neighborhood in NYC for two years. The Police were called for an ongoing murder attempts. Somebody drawing a gun. Extreme fist fights. Arson at night. [Gun shots? No way! Stabbing? Maybe if it was a young person. They would tell the dispatcher, that the victim has a terrible burn, or fell of the roof so that only EMS would come.] A large amount of the neighborhood had open warrants, or was on probation, or was doing something unlawful. (Drugs or guns.)Dear Two,
g. First off, a clarification. I meant less training and gear than a SWAT team, which will still be a lot more than they have now. Because they will not have to fund many different units. And, there will be a major reduction in the amount of salaried officers. Which will enable an increase of pay to all remaining officers. This part is (reportedly) supported by some notable police veterans.
when a crime happens….” Not anymore, criminals are usually apprehended through technology. Phone records. Video surveillance. A standard burglary today, the Police come down. They interview the bystanders, hunt for fingerprints, take videos. Go back to the station and file a report. Run everything through a computer and then look for the suspect. (Or, they say oh you must mean him. He lives on the worst block in town. We do not go there anymore. Next time the SWAT team goes there, they will pick him up. He already has 3 open warrants.) There is no need for Police here. A CSO can take down the information and record the evidence. [Some places have been doing this for decades.] If, the burglary is ongoing, than the trained unit comes. And they are trained to track him and arrest him on the spot.
“Not really sure..” Nobody is certain how any changes will play out. A lot depends on the residents and the politicians. [The way I differentiate between a good activist and a bad one, is if they blame everything on the current scapegoat. Do not believe them. They are in it for themselves, and are grasping an opportunity, A good activist, will always point out that it is up to the community to make the most of their chances.] But the idea here is that the less Police on the streets, the more it will be about community safety. When there is just the necessary amount to keep the peace, the less ability the department can be used against the residents.Dear Abba,
That is exactly why I do not have an opinion. The current setup, is not good in reality. There is no reason to trade one bad situation for another. If the new phase will continue with commitment, trust, and a bit of goodwill all around, it is probably worth a shot. Even if it seems like a long shot.Nobody can drink somene else’s wine without permission.
Dear Zion,
I have been looking for a source for when Nevuah stopped. I am unsure if it ever did stop.Dear Haimy,
The idea you mentioned from the Berditchever is a known response given by Mendelsohn to some priest.Is there any reason to assume that most Jewish men were bearded 1500 years ago?
Moshiach is independent. If he is owned by some group, than they could each bring their own.
Dear Two,
j.”This means that rape, physical assault, armed robberies, and violent gangs are preferred over the supposed systemic racism.” Again, I understand the idea is to ‘Defund’ while getting better policing. These neighborhoods, do not rely on the Police for protection from violent criminals. Just because the Police are downsized in the bad neighborhoods, it does not mean less policing in the suburbs.
Another view, is that there is a way out of violent crime. There is no way out of a communal system that does not serve the people in the community.Dear Two,
h. “What is this based on” Factually speaking, I made it up. Irvine is a modern and wealthy city, full of education centers. Ferguson is low on funds, with an undereducated and poor population. No police policy could fix the disparity. Which is just as good. I doubt the residents of Ferguson would appreciate living in Irvine.
i. Racism does not have to be systematic to ruin the designs of good governance. Add in class struggles, corruption, and lack of oversight, and all it takes is a few racist cops (or politicians) to make it about life and death. It does not have to be one specific issue. As long as the government is ignoring a group of the population (or an area of the city) one cannot argue that crimes will not happen because of the ‘peace of the country’. Criminals have to be cowed by society at large. Not by conflict with just the Police.
The advocates for ‘Defund’ think the crime rate will go down. Because of a stronger sense of community, less resentment in poor communities, and a more accountable police force. I think we can agree that as is today, law enforcement cannot solve the drug problem in inner city communities.Dear Two,
g. As of now, municipal police departments divide cities into defined areas, and dived uniformed officers into shifts. Each shift covers the whole precinct, with most officers getting steady roles. [Accident reporting. Routine home emergencies. Patrols. Etc.] After an officer has been working a precinct for some time, (two years?) they ca apply to join a specific unit. [Drugs. Trafficking. Illegal guns. Cyber. Anti-terror. Etc.] There are certain events that require cooperation of many officers. [Siyum hashas. Presidential appearances. Riots. Highway closures.] (I pulled this together from various sites. Maybe someone can clear this up for us.)
In response to your statement about needing “a competent and strong police force” for violent crime, I understand ‘Defund’ to mean a much smaller troop of everyday uniformed officers, with the bulk of 911 first responders being social workers, mental health professionals, and community service officers. Most of the specialized units will be merged into the county’s and state’s police forces. There will remain a well trained group of officers for each shift to handle dangerous situations. Something like a SWAT team with less training and gear. In this setup, large gatherings and highway construction will hire private firms for security and traffic control.Dear Two,
I am enjoying the conversation. To me make it easier on myself (And the wonderful people who moderate for us.) I will break it up into smaller posts. please point out to me if I miss anything.b. My point with Hatzolah was that a response is required for every 911 call. Fire, EMS, and anything else only come when they are needed. Anything undefined, they send the Police. When I was learning in Lakewood, I called Hatzolah for an unstable person who was lying in the street. If I would have been in a city and called 911i the police would have come. A lot of policing has nothing to do with crime. Suicide attempts. Lost children. Traffic control. Accident reports. Drug overdose.
The police brutality storyline will go away when people go back to work. Even if the bad cops are removed by then, it will not be enough to heal relations on the ground. The goal is to start a process that allows these neighborhoods the possibility of becoming better places to live. (This is one version. There are a lot of other ways to connect these two different parts of the communal system.)
Activists are pushing for a trade off of inner city spending. It appeals to (normal) Mayors that do not have the time or understanding to devote to fixing these communities. This way the City does not have to overspend to fund these projects. The money is there if they downsize the police force.Dear Som,
I apologize. I did not see your post until now. I think she means something like they did in Camden. I doubt it will happen in Minneapolis.Dear Abba,
Suppose you where in charge of a shul with 3000 seat capacity for Rosh Hashanah. Would you let anyone who claims they have antibodies into your shul? Face masks (Except medical grade.) do not help the wearer.Dear Bk,
This is not about Trump. Antifa groups rose out of the original anti Nazi groups in punk rock. It is really odd how this is getting thrown around here (of all places!), as a political debate. It was a struggle over who should direct the belligerence at music venues 40 years ago. The strategies of coping with violence has carried over to extreme groups of the right and the left. Neither one cares for your vote.Dear Reb Eliezer,
” As the generations became weaker, more and more commentaries became necessary. This is how the gemora came about.” Rav Sheraira Goan writes that Talmud preceded the Mishna. Either way the gemora is dialogue. That makes it difficult to call it commentary.Dear Rational,
It seems you are correct. Though I saw pictures of boarded up Jewish stores.Dear Two,
Agreed. Racism is about inferiority and superiority. I think there are two different ideas in racism. People who think of themselves as better than their peers may assume that their race is superior. Alternatively, it is far easier to assume knowledge, than to acquire it. When people see differences in race, they make assumptions as opposed to inquiring on the topic.“More likely to do something”
No. Assuming that all of the are that way, can be racist.“Religious Jew”
No. it is not inferior or superior to have two sinks.“Using statistics and prior life experiences”
Is very subjective. Especially in regards to race.“Reasonable and not racist”
My take is that it could be irrational. But, we are irrational about our own safety. Maybe we could say it is rational to be irrational about my own safety. My thinking for my own safety is justified. But so is the indignation of the innocent members of that race.I have no reason to think you are racist. (I even double checked this thread and your profile, in case I forgot one of our recent posts.) I wonder how much disposition I have to racism, based on my second definition above.
Dear Milhouse,
My best wishes to my most loyal supporter! A nuclear arms race is rational…… I hope you win one!Dear Health,
The news in ‘Minnesota’ could look at what went down in Camden NJ……..Dear Shady,
Exactly. While a minyan is just a number and could be ‘joined’ and have ‘a majority’, Teffilah b’tzibbur is an activity and would need the full group’s participation. It was very unpopular here, when I brought it up in regard to porch minyanim.Dear Health,
You can be very polarizing. Could you tell us why?Dear Two,
As I mentioned, I do not have an opinion (yet) on this. Let us explore what the range of possible is.a. True. Inner city communities are generally underfunded. (They do not vote much or participate.) There is not much extra room because they do not hold hope for revenue increases. There used to be advocacy to spend less on policing bad neighborhoods, and more on policing the surrounding areas. (I believe this was implemented successfully in Brooklyn.) Today, they are advocating to have smaller a police force, and more social spending. (They think the two problems are related.)
b. As noted above, police do a lot for us that is not law enforcement. (We call Hatzolah and other organizations. They only call 911.) Basic education, youth centers, etc. are connected with decreases in violent crime.
f. Please name these politicians or point give a quote. I am not sure what you are referring to. The ‘Defund the Police’ idea is from community activists. Not politicians.
g. Only part of the force, polices violent crime. In my understanding of ‘Defund’ that part of the force would remain, and probably get higher salaries and more resources. If we abolish then the Feds or State Police handles violent crime. This is done in some countries. However, there does not seem to be any real traction for ‘Police Abolition’ now. So, there is not much written on how it could work.
h. Strong policing is necessary when there is strong incentive to commit crimes. Nobody claims that strong policing will turn Ferguson, Missouri, into Irvine, California,
I. It is not new. But the Mishna is pointing to a complete or competent government. One that is unbiased toward it’s citizenry. Which is where racism comes in.
Dear Huju,
I have noticed some of those in the frum world today.And, what is all this about the U. S. doing the most testing? AS of this week, the U. S. is twelfth in tests per million population. And by far the most people that are getting tested multiple times. If anything it is under counted the amount of cases here compared to Europe. I do not think this is politics. We have mostly rural areas, and great distances between city clusters. The virus travels much faster than basic testing.
Dear Wolf,
That is great for you, but it would follow that you are cruel enough that my entire existence is a mere figment of your imagination.Dear Mistykins,
If we are using that meaning of think. then just turning on the news is in itself the same proof. Alternatively, we could reassure ourselves that the subjects of todays storylines do not exist.Dear Milhouse,
The problem with racism is not irrationality. What is rational could be harmful, uncontrollable, unsustainable, or the wrong way to act.Dear One,
The Jews do not control the vote in NYC or NYS. What should they do? No candidate who would fit well with our community has a chance in NYC. (Besides Mickey Mouse.)Please stop insulting Marxism. Your Mayor is only an half-competent flip-flopper. He never commits to anything, so how could he be even slightly Communist?
Dear Someone,
A mayor is not elected by a national vote. Mayors are allowed to be racist, anti-government, radically religious, or any other extreme. As long as they have (somewhat positive) name recognition, they get reelected.Dear Milhouse,
“Which makes them enemies of all civilization, who need to be exterminated.”
1) But you would not abort them as a fetus, even if Jewish mothers would be saved.
2) Many civilizations had no concept of private property.
3) The quote from Sanders about the ‘looting of America’ is very much in support of private property.
4) It would very much bolster your argument, if you can kindly provide one open supporter of those who are looting and rioting.Dear Two,
Just a disclaimer. I do not have an opinion about this. If there will be serious positive change, there has to be a steady hand on the wheel for several years. That is not happening anywhere, and it is the source of most of our political problems. Yet, our justice system is not efficient, and not because of lack of funds.
a. It is a movement in public spending, to spend less on the justice systems and more on social programs.
b. Maybe the opposite. If police only focus on law enforcement and if there would be greater cooperation with communities, our cities should be safer.
c. There is no reason why looting or rioting is tolerated. Mayors of cities has become a precocious position. And many of them are cowards or clowns.
d. The Governors are trying to do what will work to end the protests peacefully, and the pandemic safely. The conflict of interest is intrinsic. It is terrible optics for a governor to go to a protest. But still, neither crisis is in the hands of the Governor. Riot control is best done on a local level. (Community police. Reinforcements as needed.) Police policy is local government, or state legislature. When the pandemic ends, is not a political question. (Though it is great for bad journalism if we think it is.) Not much the Governors can do, other than talk.
e. I do not follow politicians much. Whom are you referring to? and, what did they say?
f. La-la land is where everything is always good even when danger is obvious. reverse la-la land is when everything is scary, even things that could be helpful.
I really liked the way you worded you post! I am not picking a side on this one. No need for the aggression. If I make up my mind then everyone can do their best to change it.Dear Syag,
This conversation is about what this policy change would look like. It is about something that could happen in the future. I am just gathering information from these movements and posting it hear. There is zero purpose to take a mayday stance about defunding the police. It goes together with investing in safer communities. I am convinced that reality takes place as we write. If you differ on that, kindly do not respond.Dear Jackk,
I am turning down your invitation. FOX and CBS seem to be only interested in what version their viewers want to see. Incidentally, they have had the biggest personal scandals at the top. The best practice there is for spinning reality…………..Dear One,
If this is your take of reality, who are your canidates? Mickey MouseUnbelieveable how many people around the country are scaring themselves about a concept they never heard of before last week. On top of that, they refuse to find out about what it really means. Nobody is advocating for cities to be less safe. No reason to live in a reverse la-la land.
Dear Ed,
The conservatives have put themselves out of business long ago. Exhibit A: Our President. Exhibit B: Your post.DRAMATIC ARREST: Man With Knife Tries To Stab Mekubal HaRav David Abuchatzeira in Nahariya
Dear Health,
This is exceptionally convoluted! I said the issue is humanity. (Not just race.) You asked if I protested. I didn’t as humanity consist of different groups. (And different responses.) I added that it is understood that someone else’s dignity is our dignity. I noted one liberal exception. You brought up the beliefs of the looters and their supporters. (I do not believe it. It is Satanism.) My response was that people do not steal out of belief. I asked who is supporting them. You pointed to a tweet from Sanders. Then, “commie + worse than that = doesn’t believe in rule of law”.
I would guess you believe in rule of law. That would require a broad foundation of what being human entails. Which requires upholding human dignity as it’s cornerstone. So, we agree on the first part, Yet, you seem to think everyone else’s standard of dignity is relevant. (The looters beliefs.) I do not. We disagree.
Then, you point out support for their belief. (He did not condone theft. If he could speak coherently, maybe he could be a politician.) I’m not sure what you mean when you say someone who wants the government to regulate everything, does not believe in rule of law.Dear Joseph,
Also, arrest every person driving 5 miles over the limit. Or without a seatbelt. Tylenol in a drug free zone. Marijuana anywhere. Jay walking. Loitering. Spitting.
Or, we could do better with our resources.Dear Chash,
Every time I checked, spreading through touch was prefaced by “(it) may be possible”. The only significant change I’ve seen, is social distancing seems to be the most important measure now. This is because it is here and the goal is to the stop the spread. The CDC still advises against masks as a means to protect yourself. Masks are recommended to prevent spreading it to others.Dear Joseph,
No! Asymptomatic means symptoms never develop. Most of the spread is still understood to be from patients who will have symptoms, but are not yet noticeably ill. This is what I mean. While this is a useful news item, it has no bearing on public health policy.