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It is not a Mishna. In some versions it is added to the fourth perek. This is not a new theory. It is explicit in the Machzor Vitry. If it was a Mishna, it would certainly have been referenced by the Gemara in Kiddushin.
Dear Maivin,
What is your question?Dear Huju,
Big H =He refers to Hashem.
Little h = he refers to the OP.I thought you were joking. I wish the skeptics are also.
Dear The Little,
Your first point is an excellent one. On your second point, we could claim that punishment is a good thing. Or, that there is no such concept as good and bad.Dear Doing,
One can ascertain that there is a Moral Will being dictated without there being any Divine Revelation. Much like one can believe in Hashem but doubt that he would ever Hear from him personally. Many people believe in God’s Will, but do not have religious practices. And they claim not to know of Revelation.Dear Gamanit,
The exact words of gret neviim such as Shmuel and Yirmiyahu came from their own brains. How else does nevuah come? There is no heavenly area code. Please source your first statement.Dear Daas,
Very good! But I would not appreciate any advice on that. I know enough of it.Dear Ubiquitin,
I read the OP as the revelation versus reason debate. Because it included not stealing as the Will of Hashem. I assumed this was not a single divined oracle. Rather the Revelation of the Torah. Now that you pointed it out, I reread the OP. It fits much better with the whole paragraph. But if we are discussing the essence of morals in relation to His Essence, (without the Torah) Why would Rashi suffice as a counter proof? We would think that theft is immoral of it’s own nature but we would be wrong.Dear Rabbi,
Thanks for the name drop! I cannot remember the last somebody brought up Midrashat Torah U’Mada B’Tzion, or the Great Rabbi Sinowitz.The Rabbi Doctor Zundel Stevie Anderson! Unbelievable!
Dear Reb Eliezer,
My parents are not my esrog. I am not to treat them in some ritualistic manner, like a symbolic object. The wishes and the honor of my parents is the cheftza. The same with Yaakov and Rachel.But the Leviim are part of the ritualistic act that is incumbent on all the Yidden to ensure it’s continuity. Just like the Beis Hamikdash is a cheftza, so too are the Leviim on their watch or platform. They could be defined as the cheftzah of being present within the required context.
Dear Maidoff,
Socialists are people with a perspective on how the markets should be managed. Like financers, bankers, and investors. What is a socialist style environment?Dear Ben,
Socialism is founded on the idea that I can only gain from your labor, if you receive compensation equal to your efforts. (Such as being paid commensurately to what you worked.) Nothing, empowers the worker as much as Socialism. Your Critique should be on Communism and Capitalism.But I still do net get your point. The common thief does not rationalize that property is unowned. He justifies it, based on that he has needs, and he wants it, and is able to steal. And, that money comes and goes, and repayment is possible.
Dear Se,
I like your point.Dear Doing,
Working together is mere propaganda or advertising. It is used in all societies. It has nothing to do with economic doctrine. It is central to the anthropology of civilizations. Or in other words, social studies.Dear Doing,
Stealing is bad because of what it is. If one could not decipher that on his own, how would the commandment ‘enlighten’ him to realize that it is bad? He would think ‘the Torah forbids all the good stuff’, and would deny the very basis of moral ideas.Dear Ubiquitin,
I think it is unreasonable to assume that this was an old discussion going back for millennia. The early polemics (Saadya, Eight Chapters) make a forceful conclusion, that seem to indicate that it was not a topic of conversation in those days.Being that the skeptics brought very little to the screen, there is not much content here.
Maybe I could take the time to post the relevant sources.
Of course, I would appreciate any specific meditations that posters find helpful when attaining prophecy.
Dear Ben,
There is a backstory to this quote, on this site. It was brought up (again) on this thread. (Not by me,) It was responded to in bad taste. (Just let it go. He is not a scientist.) I wonder if it is a family joke by the Trumps. I am not sure why it such a big deal. Or why it is related to that a certain drug that I cannot spell correctly, is effective.For example, the service of the Leviim.
And more so, when the Officer thinks that he has to use force he must use it right away. Every second he delays, he risks his life, his partners, the detainee, and any bystanders.
Dear Charlie,
Socialist virtues and policies can stand on their own merit. Once that merit is justified, it is no longer viewed as merely a socialist policy. It takes on it’s own nature, and will be called by it’s own title. A large amount of the productive regulations that cropped up over the centuries would be termed today, ‘socialist legislation’. But we know it as standard business protocols or ethics. Socialism is only used in policy making, when there uncertainty if the bill under discussion, is justified. Then Socialist philosophies can be used to demonstrate it’s need or potential. The philosophy lending approval to the law, is a mandatory part of man made systems.The Torah is Divine. As a divine system it’s laws always have to be justified in of themselves. We cannot say, Hashem would not have created this law, but He saw that there was a flaw somewhere else, so this law was made as a safety net. [For example, saying that the whole intent of the slavery laws is that it was the best that could be hoped for. This gets to be a gray area, I am not intending to discredit anybody.] Therefore, the underpinnings of the Torah, which in Human terms would be it’s philosophy or terms of thinking, do not describe the values of the Torah, as much as it does the Facets of the Torah. [Yiras Shamayim, Ahavas Torah, Avodah, Chukim, etc. according to which ever Jewish thinker you prefer.]
So, in conclusion to validate a man made system from the Torah, requires translating the Laws of the Torah into the potential practices of whatever philosophy. And since human thinking is forever evolving, it will be thrown back in your face with tenfold the amount of ‘proofs’ you started out with.
The Torah allows us to be Socialist, Communist, Capitalist, and a million other things. So if you find socialism beneficial, then ‘go in happiness and eat your bread, and drink your wine with a gracious heart’. But do not think that you have the Torah’s backing for what you chose to ask of others to join you. You stand on your own merits. The Torah has empowered us to do so. Empowered, not entitled, designated, or compelled.
Dear Som,
You misunderstood. i was criticizing a certain mayor.PS Are we back to the obsession with punk rock? (i. e. What does Antifa have to do with anything.)
Dear Ben,
You really have to get a fair handle on these academic disciplines. “You do not have a right to my work nor do I have a claim on yours.” That could be the mantra of Socialism! The worker is the only one who actually produces work. I still have no idea how it is educational. It is an understanding of our relationship with property.Dear Huju,
Please enlighten me as to how one’s perspective of economic principle, can be interpreted in a moral sense.It is worthwhile for the government to fund those who are dedicated to advancing their education.
Dear Ben,
“Another basic Jewish value is that stealing is wrong.”
A lot worse than wrong.
“You are not entitled to other peoples money.”
I am not asking anyone for money. But maybe I could take this to heart, and be more self reliant.“No matter how much they have.”
You are bringing in revolutionary propaganda. It may have a point, and it may be unethical. But it is irrelevant to socialism which is about how to set up markets and production, not governments.Dear Syag,
You have a point. But if you would make the bet, every time a yeshivish dress meets a modern one, you would be broke.Everyone knows someone from the other group that does not fit the stigma at all, and can be a role model for both types.Yet, our brains are trained to put differences with different patterns. (I am trying to say that even though I do not believe I am better, I instinctively identify with more familiar patterns as superior.)
Either way, I think Huju can relax a bit.
Dear The Little,
The Mishna ends somwhere in the fifth perek. You are quoting one of the additions. This is prominently sourced. This particular teaching is considered to predate the Mishna. While it is a valid qoute, it is aggadah and does not obligate anyone.He should not interrupt his studies. Rashi Kiddushin & Rambam Hilchos Talmud Torah
Dear Ben,
Thank you for your public service.No, it was not a very serious post.
I do not think that all those homicides were being attacked.
All of them were avoidable.
Dear Huju,
Big H? Do not say that. Little H? Only the greatest prophets could think past their cultural impact. What was your point.Dear Syag,
You are probably right on that. I did not think the example through. But the point is the same. The same potency of the virus will play out again and again and again. With time, we will be able to track most of the differences to see what helped and what harmed. And we will reach that understanding when the disparity of the number of infected/hospitalized/deaths meet the variables that were introduced differently in different places. [There will always be some phenomenon and accounts that will remain without an explanation. That is because we are humans and have limited control.] Getting back to Coumo, the virus that infected the nursing homes was the same as the virus everywhere else. The question is how it got there, and there is no clear answer. It seems to be a bad policy,yet it is still in effect. (But not in NY.) But it is not definitively a bad policy. And it is not clear from any data point if it was the cause for the large number of nursing home deaths. There is still a lot of data that needs to be explained. For example, NJ’s nursing homes were hit a lot harder than any other state. Almost double New York’s percentage of deaths. If there is political fallout from the pandemic, it should wait. Even for the President.Dear Ben,
“The basic philosophy of socialism is ingraining in someone their “rights” and everyone else’s obligations towards them.”
This sounds like ‘bill of rights’ socialism, and may have been in the mind of FDR. (More likely that he viewed it as socialist, and not socialism.) It has been revived very recently. (Like this decade or last.)It is not at all basic to the philosophy of socialism.
“While Capitalism teaches you the obligations you have.”
Please explain. I never understood these socio-economic philosophies as educational.
Dear Ben,
They should. Once a mayor commits to protecting the city, in the current climate it could rapidly become uncontrollable. Some cities think they cannot or will not deal correctly with possible escalations, so they sit tight. Some (Ahem!) mayors are control freaks, and the idea of having a to admit they are losing and then regaining control, terrifies them.I was asking if you are advocating for Federal Agents, like Portland has. I have no idea how it is helping. And it seems to be at least borderline unconstitutional. Is it a dress rehearsal?
“When you devolve into stupid attacks with no basis in reality…..”
Are you referring to a specific post?
Dear Syag,
Different treatments will give a new result for the virus to play out in. That should take away an average of the other cases. It should not redefine the numbers. For example, if a medicine would prevent blood clotting and stop half the strokes in Covid patients, we should not see less patients being sick or less patients dying from pneumonia like symptoms. It is worth noting, that NY was not the only state with this policy, and it did not have the worst result. [That was NJ. Double Ny’s death rate.] And it is two months later, and the proof that this was bad policy is not (yet) glaring at us.The difference in masks and social distancing would play out that we do not see a surge of cases. But the cases that we do see should be somewhat similar in every data set. Of course there will be differences, and they will be heavily analyzed. Then we find disparities that exist within the virus- much like code in a computer program. We should not find, that the virus in one state affects the young and spares the elderly,
Dear Syag,
The issue here is, does the hospital have to make sure they are negative before they send them back. The nursing home can lose funding from the Cares Act if they deny patients. The CDC still maintains that there is no need to test patients before sending them to nursing homes. That is what New York followed until May 10. Virginia is still not testing residents being discharged back to nursing homes. Though Florida required two negative tests before being allowed back. You were right about that one. I will let you know if I find what else they do.Dear Syag,
Same issue= Possible testing outage.Sending positive patients back to the homes= It is national guidelines, so I assume they are.
Multiple tests of the same person= Are you part of the low numbers when it is this group, high numbers when it is that group mathematicians?
They don’t even have as many sick people as they claim= Who is they, and how sick are they claiming to be?
Just a general application of mathematics. When you play out the same potentials in large numbers again and again, you will roughly achieve the same raw results. The coronavirus is no different than a computer program. It will do what it is designed to do, no matter how people perceive it.
Dear Ben,
The problem is greed. Socialism does not tame it, and Capitalism cannot compete with it.Dear Edmark,
What does or does not work here? Which process we use to evaluate markets and production, is not indicative of inflation or failure.Dear Som,
Socialism is much less based on hard cash, than even debt driven Capitalism. When production is being valued at near 100%, it is impossible to run out of money. It is deflation with high economic activity.Dear The Little,
Your point is valid. But all the ideas you mentioned have nothing to do with socialism.Nursing homes were completely unable to fend off the coronavirus in the beginning. This was due to lack of medical knowledge, lack of early preparedness, and most critically, a serious outage of testing. Right now, the same issue is starting to play out in Florida. The funding for tests for private health care facilities is set to expire this week.
Dear Reb Eliezer,
The yeshiva should be representing the boys, not the other way around. I think that rags should be considered dressing properly.Dear The Little,
The statement you quoted is not a mishna. I trust you that being ready is an individual matter. If a learning boy is ready at fifteen, he can delay at least another ten years to continue his studies.I am glad that I washed my hands of whatsapp.
Dear The little,
In general rallying yeshiva bochuim to the cause. Even in a good cause. Specifically here, it means telling them to plan their lives in accordance with the holy grail of the shidduch crisis.Dear Mesivta,
I will. Thank you.Dear Reb Eliezer,
We as the Jewish People have no Navi to lead us. The Navi still may perceive a message and behold visions. Only, it will not have enough prophetic substance to shine a light for our peoplehood.Dear Ben,
This was discussed on the thread about the Sixties. Those cities are capable of containing the unrest on their own. Bringing in Federal agents is probably a bad idea. Oncwe you mentioned it, what is going on in Portland?