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Dear Simple,
My point about traditional dress. The Yeshivish clothing is the same idea as the Amish, Maasai, Saami, the gho in Butan, or the traditional dress in Sardinia. This is the clothing we wear, for no other reason than we wear it. At one point it was not distinctive. A certain fashion stayed in place, even as the people wearing it slowly modernized. There was no identification when it was a regular means of dress, and there should be no meaning to it today. Whatever meaning there is, cannot be from the clothing associated with the activity. Because all these groups are doing the same activities as people who do not have a distinctive mode of dress. The only meaning comes after the fact that the group wears it. And they could make up whatever meaning they want. Who cares?Dear Simple,
The contradiction is not in what people wear or think. As humans we do all kinds of inconsistencies. But clothing (as an object) is either meaningful to the wearer just by what it is. Or, it has meaning because it gives off an impression of the wearer. Our intelligence may deduce from the clothes, something about the person wearing the clothing. But that is nothing to do with the clothing itself.Identifying with the clothing, is a later step. My disagreement is about making this step. I think it is pointless. Tzitzis have an intrinsic meaning. I wear them regardless of what others perceive. That could be true for my entire wardrobe, which for the almost all of it is meaningless. [Just something to wear.] There is no need for me to identify with my tzitzis. Or any other clothes. Maybe people do it because they are lacking something better.
Dear Simple,
We assume that the wearer of a mets cap is a proud baseball fan. Maybe he just likes blue and orange. As I pointed out with regards to a TV show there is messaging in titles that have nothing to do with the object. But I disagree with the whole theory that putting on a hat make the wearer proud. If you want that to be true, than you would get hats that make it true. Meaning, you would buy nice hats that make you feel proud. I doubt the Chazon Ish was proud of his hat.Dear Simple,
Straight to your question. I would think nice shirt or not. It does not bother me in the least what he identifies with. I assumed you had a specific show in mind. There is a big chance that I never heard of it. And if it was a specific point to the title of the show, I would care even less if someone was wearing such a statement.The inconsistency in your viewpoint, is that you keep switching from clothing influencing the wearer to clothing being an identification toward the observer. To me, these are opposites. A proof or instance of one, is an example of the other being disregarded. This calls the entire idea of every type of dress has some meaning attached into serious doubt.
Traditional dress means black hat, white shirt, and so on. One who dresses like that, does so at all times, for a wide range of activities.
My take is, that types of clothing are meaningless until people unjustly put meaning to it. Just wear whatever works.
Our society thrives on fundraising. That is what maintains our lifestyle and builds our communities. The elementary schools and the girls high schools are left behind. They are left to be maintained by their parent body. This makes no sense. Organizations that serve the ill, are not supported only by the patients’ families. Same for every type of chessed. When it comes to education, the major yeshivos get some communal support, and the small ones get a drop. Nobody ever approached me to contribute to the communities schools. But I was asked to give to hachnassas kallah, bikur cholim, tomchei shabbos, hatzoalah, pidyon shevuyim, kiruv, shuls, et cetera. Well, if I make money in a community I should give some back. Sure. But should the schools not be first? I was even approached to give to the mikva and an organization that helps with infertility?!? I even went looking for a communal pot that would be distributed among the local schools. There was none. And I think I know why.
There seems to be a major mix up between morals and moral law.
Dear Shmeryl,
I reached out to some friends. I could not get a clear first hand report. While you are there, you will have a kesher with him. Unless you really dedicate yourself, the kesher will slowly evaporate. (Seems pretty typical. The only unique part is that it is a warmer relationship than your average R”Y.)There already was a thread about the extent of available testing does not demonstrate the extent of the pandemic.
Similarly, the extent of people being cautious or reckless does not emphasize the extent of the pandemic today.
But it will impact the extent of the pandemic tomorrow.
Dear Simple,
If the point of the clothing is to cause the wearer to identify with something, than the clothing itself has no meaning. It is causation of a purpose. Placing the clothing on a mannequin would not indicate what identity it portrays. Only when it is worn by someone involved in an activity does it take on meaning. (Baseball cap and Bigdei kehunah.)Standard dress, is not part of any activity. People who dress a certain way (in a traditional sense) will always wear their outfit, regardless of what the activity is. One wears when they go about their routine, in much the same way all people wear clothing. I am typing and you are typing. That we are dressed differently, does not mean that we are typing differently. Or that my typing serves an overall purpose. The identity would be in the clothing itself. But the above paragraph demonstrated that even clothing designed for a specific task do not have an intrinsic meaning.
Here is how I remember the shtickel from yesterday. The bigdei kehunah identify as the service of Hashem because of their association with the service. That is to say the service itself would not externally demonstrate the purpose without clothing. And why a mets cap is silly because baseball is an activity without an overall purpose, so there is nothing to demonstrate. Yet, when it comes to wearing a black hat or whatever else, it could have such an effect on the wearer that he should be proud that he announces what he identifies with. Where would this effect come from? In the essay, the point is made that people go about everyday life without reflecting on what their actions mean. So it is not the actions or the clothing. It is the mental effort. And that goes into tzitzis. Which is there to affect our considerations. But that is specifically given for that meaning, which makes it an intrinsic part of the clothing.
Here is the contradiction.
On bigdei kehunah. It starts out that the greatness is because of the activity, and what that signifies to the onlooker. But at the end it should be the same as tzitzis, and the meaning is intrinsic to the clothing and intended for the wearer.
On baseball caps. The essay says they are silly because it is just a game. But if any hat makes the thinking wearer proud, than the wearer of the mets cap would be proud when they win. And, the makers of the cap want people to think more about the mets, so it is a similar idea to the paragraph above.
On traditional dress. It would mean something if people would think about it. But it is demonstrated that they do not. That is what tzitzis is for.If anything, Rav Miller ZT”L is concluding that people will identify and be proud of what they wear. Even though clothing itself is not about ‘identifying’ or being proud.
Dear Shnitzel,
Funny that you did not put anything about elder care or any of the other parts of his plan. We as a community would see more benefit out of those parts than the childcare programs. Our community is very resourceful, and we will make the best of it. If I remember correctly, your take is that our activists should not push for financial benefits that are specific to our community.A little correction. There does not seem to be any significant mention (In the care plan itself.) of how to pay for this bill. What you mentioned about real estate taxes, is from a different source. To me that means that Biden would push for these tax changes, regardless of what programs he puts in place. Every congress and every president push for changes to the tax code. And the public never gets a good feel for why and how they are being taxed.
Dear Ed,
Your money is where you consider yourself free?!?If you have a fear of big government, than you should speak up about Portland.
Dear Printer,
A limo driver only wears his tux when he has clients.So. if my Rosh Yeshivah smokes, I should also? And I will spend most of the week fundraising. I will mimic his walk and style of speech. Anything else?
If the issur of achrei rabbim lehatos would apply to clothing, we would be forbidden from wearing any clothes assumed by any group, even roshei yeshivos. Thankfully it is inapplicable. It would be very complicated. Maybe only the R”Y should dress like the gedolim.
These kind of ‘proofs’ make me convinced that it does not work.
Dear Som,
You misunderstand. These days, the protests are much bigger, and seem to have no end. That is because people have nothing else to do. So they stay where they are all night long. Of course they could leave, but why would they? My post was disagreeing with the poster who believes not to use teargas on peaceful protests. I think, that teargas is intended for peaceful protests that do not disperse. The issue now is that the crowds will keep on coming back. teargas will not solve everything. It will take community outreach with excellent policing, or full rioting to reach the end of this. It could go on for months.Dear Health,
So, if Mr. Floyd is still presumed innocent, why do you keep referring to him as a criminal? [And, as resisting arrest for criminal motives.]Fear of the police, would not stop crimes. It would stop them from being reported. I would not call the Police for an active robbery, if we are more afraid of the Police than the criminals. And it for sure would make no difference, in these high profile cases. They mostly involve incompetent, or vicious cops filing to make an ordinary arrest.
My test came back positive for smallpox.
Dear Health,
What is the reason that criminal should fear the Police? All it would get, is more officers being harmed during every day arrests. I cannot fathom what kind of deterrent would have helped make the arrest go smoother in any of these high profile cases.Dear Health,
Why is Mr. Floyd not innocent until proven guilty?Dear Doing,
Good policing is, to use tear gas on a protest that does not disperse. The main problem in the present is that there are so many people that have nowhere to go after. (Homeless, unemployed, etc.)There is no way to condemn China on it. The People’s Republic will lie endlessly to continue it’s persecutions. Not allowing for any independent identities, is crucial to the perception of power structures in the far east. India is always balancing tensions that could leave to civil war. China uses suppression and covert genocide to maintain it’s grip. This is why China was on the human rights council for so long. When abuses are critical to a government’s identity, they do all they can to legitimize it. Would you start a world war over this?
Dear Simple,
I read the whole booklet. I heard these ideas from some of his shmuessen. Many people like to say this shtickel today. I do not think it works. It even seems contradictory.Dear Opinionated,
“Bottom line the boys are causing the shidduch crises”That is the mantra of certain organizations that seem to serve no purpose. Maybe one day they could offer some evidence. Until then, they are no different than all the other organizations that set their sights on changing the yeshiva curriculum or want bochurim to join the army.
Dear Gilda,
What about when a bumbling cop makes a run of the mill situation dangerous? I do not appreciate when they do that.Dear Opionated,
There is not one whiff of evidence, that putting more learning boys ‘out there’ will help anything.Dear Ben,
That is a beautiful post you wrote! But, what is the last paragraph? It should not mean much to the average Yid, if ‘his’ political party is aligned with his morals. There are real places to act morally. Politics is a game compared to real life.Dear Hu,
Capital punishment, is a means of moving illegitimate power from the hands of the people to the arm of the government. Iran and Iraq had capitol punishment, that kept petty crime at very low levels. But almost all the police, military, and government workers, were rife with corruption, and evil. The imperial solution to this, was private security forces. Less criminals will not solve a bad cop problem. And more cops will not solve the problem of career criminals.The Officer who killed George Floyd, would not have been charged without the protests. As is, it does not look like a well run prosecution. Which is not a race issue. It is an issue with the inner workings of the Justice Departments.
BLM is largely the work of three black woman.
Dear Charlie,
He definitely has some morals. But I question your ethic, in making this post about him. Who cares?It will be a very long list.
Dear Opinionated,
ending world poverty is a great cause to work toward. But it is not a chessed. Chessed is when it benefits a specific individual or community. Just putting benefits out there, does not make them reach the needy.Dear Opinionated,
We are still waiting for Libby to get back with the data. I doubt their sincerity until then. So, all we have is an educated guess at a mathematical anomaly. If there really is one, (i. e. There are so much more twenty five year old girls available than twenty five year old boys.) there should be multiple solutions available. In the study of graphs, [as is the case with most mathematics] one number can not be changed, to achieve a solution. Changes have to happen in pairs. If there is a need for boys to marry younger, all the post high school boys that are employed, are the most eligible to fill such a need. Who has a harder time finding a shidduch; twenty one year old girl, looking for a learner or, twenty one year old working boy? Another question, how many twenty year olds, remain in yeshiva just for shidduchim?Now, to your point. Assuming that there would be a need for bochurim to marry younger. One must stop his learning to perform a specific chessed. But learning precedes the acquiring middos. They follow naturally from responsibility and dedication, as people age. Also, Torah brings one to all these middos, as was discussed on some other thread. The learning of an independent mind, (One that is free is of external fashions and pressures.) is paramount and is not duplicated anywhere else in society. Not even computers. (At least so far.)
Dear Opinionated,
People can have major forms of nevuah at any time. Though I doubt there are more than a few dozen who would no what to make of it. I read Iyov in a fully alert state and it is still all fuzzy to me.Dear Health,
When you were arrested, you cooperated because you were fearful that the Police may kill you or, because you knew that it would be worse in the long run to resist arrest? [Or, some other reason.]Dear Doing,
Morals that transcend our existence, are intrinsically beyond our ability to determine. Even with Divine Revelation, we cannot say that something beyond our recognition is moral. (Such as how gods treat each other.) Because it is beyond our dimension, we could never grasp the moral of it.However, things that are within the sphere of our individuality, we can and must define an ethic for it. (For example, what lengths to go to on personal hygiene.) We would not be able to cultivate ourselves without it. As we develop into social circles and civilizations, the need arises for a common moral good. Such as being determined to avoid theft. This will be subjectively good, when it enhances the growth of society. But it is completely and objectively good at doing what it is intended to do; sustain the respect for other people’s property.
On this basis, Kant, Hegel, Locke, and who knows how many others, demonstrated that theft is bad because it leads to the ruin of civilization. Though it could be argued, that in if our view would transcend the small perspective of humanity, we might be convinced that the ruin of civilization is the ultimate good.
Dear Opinionated,
My spelling mistakes on this site are extensive. Just another reason not to trust that my post make any sense. I once put a comma in a coma! But this reply was about medicines inducing hallucinations.Dear Health,
It was not just a bias. The police in the Old World had authority to force the law onto the people.
In The U. S. the police are here to help us keep the law among ourselves. Like the idea of appreciating when you get ticketed for speeding.Dear Opinionated,
My understanding is, Hashem created the world based on The Torah Itself, Not merely it’s Laws.Dear Shnitzel,
The line of questioning you mentioned, received attention from Menashe ben Yisrael. Mendelssohn wrote just about as full a thesis as there is on the subject. His ideas are mainstream to the modern day. Rav Hirsch, the Malbim, Rav Yisrael Salanter, and almost every notable jewish thinker of the nineteenth century agreed with the theory. It is still in place in the modern day, in the works of Reb Aryeh Kaplan and Reb Avigdor Miller.Dear Ben,
Anybody here wants to offer an alternate explanation of Socialism, based on reality instead of psuedo journalism?Dear Toi,
Can you source that statement? It seems ridiculous to me. And it contradicts the oft repeated saying of Reb Chaim , that Bava Kamma is shverer vi Parah Adumah.Dear Huju,
In an academic sense, I have no idea what you are talking about with Socialists and morals. Many of the iconic workers in history [Of both genders.] never married. Because they worked nonstop. They remained celibate all their lives. This includes Jews who spent their lives on a given activity, such as Ben Asher.As anthropology, I would like to know if there is any record of this idea. Or is it your opinion.
I am surprised that nobody mentioned the legend of Amukah and Yonason ben Uziel.
America at large should stop prattling about security and threats to our way of life, and just teach people (Your local police are also people.) how to be a human {or humane} being.
Dear Nyob,
You may think kollel education does not benefit to society, but the policy makers do. Having educated people, able to disseminate information to their community is very valuable. It is a major reason why poor communities stay poor. (Too many bad choices because of an inability to self-educate.) Kolleliet, are able to self-navigate medical, legal, and family issues. Compare how literate this site is, to the majority of middle-low class Americans. Most Americans would have difficulty keeping up with basics of political analysis in this forum. And we do it with out stopping to think. (This makes us seem more polarized than we really are.) Also, very little of the money is going toward alcohol and drugs as compared with the rest of the country.Dear Anonymous,
What would happen if you ran a Kollel, and the guy who barely shows up aced the test, and the one who is there on time for every seder flunked it?Dear Bsharg,
Does not compare. Half the yeshivah bochurim stop learning full time within the first year. (Short term learners.) The other half, start working on how to learn with a time limit. (Long term learners,) The exceptional ones, are those that learn all the time, except for the hour they spend with their wife.Dear Opinionated,
I am not sure if most are being supported. Almost all are not facing budget gaps. It is not about the money. No matter what everybody says. Some of my Rebbeim were below the poverty level their entire adult life. Some have large families and teach in multiple positions. We have to consider that the basic workday (For the scholar.) according to the Rambam was three hours.Dear Huju,
Let’s drink to radical dress!Dear Huju,
Socialism as opposed to Capitalism, is about valuing activity (or work) over investment. There is no ethical message. So where do loose morals come in? (Do not answer where it came up in history. Rather where it has a place in Socialism.)Dear Health,
Americans are not wimps.Dear Health,
I read an account by an immigrant who came over in the 1880s.She wrote that not feeling apprehensive by the sight of a police officer, took longer to be acclimated to than anything else. Your entire outlook of policing seems removed from my experiences. Can I ask if how many arrests you have been involved in? (Knowing the person arrested, or assisting in the arrest.)Psssst. Deblasio.
PS Antifa is the equivalent to the martial arts in the punk world. They generally hold leftists views. Rioting and looting is as much part of their lore as the Boy Scouts’.