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Dear Qwerty,
“..came to the conclusion that the Rebbe is “G-d clothed in human form.” ”
There is an esoteric debate about the what is goodness/righteousness in this world. The main delineator is can we accept the tzaddik as something similar to the phrase you put in quotes. The mainstream view of today’s (And the last 200+ years.) kabbalistic thinkers is in the positive. We can discuss if Chabad should be promoting kabbalistic concepts to the laity. But they are not far out, off the wall, rejected concepts. If you want to understand why it’s okay, you would have to study these topics yourself.
Dear Coffee,
I don’t get it. The story of Ruby Schron is that he returned money that he was allowed to keep. You didn’t mean that yeshivishe people don’t have money. Just that it is not a life goal to make endless money.
Ruby Schron is a gvir from the Mir in Brooklyn. Yeshivish or frum baal habus?
Dear Anonymous,
The question is what is the experience of the word right now. How it came to be has little impact on mysticism.
And anyways, Menachem Shmei gave you sources.
Dear Avira,
“Lubavitchers harp on titles a lot.”
So……………..
you must be Lubavitch🤣🤣🤣Dear Avira,
You are overrating both his impact and his status as a thinker.
But of course he is way off because your rabbeim didn’t explicitly tell you that he should be a role model. Which checks all the criteria.
There is a mistake here.
The test for a Navi is not a faher on shas. It is to see if he can foretell what will happen. It seems that those who hear him prophesizing are the ones who test him.
Another mistake.
Chabad is not or did not try to establish their rebbe as a navi. This came up as something he said which some posters think is off the rails. It’s a mainstream idea. Just that the rest of us don’t delve into these concepts. And we don’t speak publicly about these topics.
If you want to get on Chabad because of our taboos, you have to acknowledge that silence doesn’t mean dissent. Otherwise, your just disagreeing with yourself.
My point was that Rav Moshe’s test would not have carried universal weight in 1967. The Rebbe had a much greater following, especially among the other Rebbes than Rav Moshe.
Dear Qwerty,
You have a lot of gall. I never intended to insult Rav Moshe. I have a lot more veneration for him and what he achieved than I do for the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Why am I subject to your assumptions of me? Yet you never answer any questions about yourn positions. I have asked you several on this thread. And you never responded. Not once.
It seems like you want to live in a simple, easy world, and are mad at Chabad for making you uncomfortable.
I don’t think that those who were calling Rav Moshe’s home number in middle of the night with threats and curses considered him the Gadol Hador. But who knows? With such crazy folks, anything is possible.
Dear Avira,
Again, this is nothing to do with Chabad. There are yidden today that work to experience prophecy. Admittedly, none of them that I know claim success. I doubt they would tell me if they did achieve it.
Though I think I found the key:
“… always said that we don’t have it nowadays.:
Who is the we, and why is that evidence to this discussion?
Anonymous,
Yes, mysticism doesn’t change the pshat of anything. That doesn’t refute the mystical experience in the least.
Dear Avira,
I don’t care what he is in halachah. That would only matter to if we have to listen to him. The question here is, is he accessing it or not.
So now my question is, when he reaches this clarity, how would he know if it is just ruach hakodesh or actual nevuah?
Did you just post that ruach hakodesh is accessible to all?
Dear Qwerty,
Chas v’shalom that I would denigrate Rav Moshe! Where did you get that from.
The reaction to Rav Moshe over artificial insemination was very intense. Not because his detractors knew what they were talking about. I don’t understand why everyone is so threatened by Chabad. They weren’t threating Rav Moshe to retract his psakim.
Dear Avira,
I’m looking for sources that say after this point in time, every prophet that comes along is obviously a false one. Where does it say that? It would have saved us a lot of grief.
I don’t know to what extent the Rashba rejected him. I don’t understand your question.
The Arizal redid all of Kabbalah. The main purpose of Eitz Chaim was to weed out the illegitimate. If these methods were not valid stuff, they may have slipped through a bit. There wouldn’t be a whole section dedicating to preserving them.
I don’t know why you feel threatened by the existence of prophecy at all times.
Dear Arso,
Go blame all the other leaders for where their groups ended up. And convince any other group that their shittah is not the correct one.
Need a mirror?
Dear Ujm,
Very simple. Because the majority of Klal Yisroel has yearned for Moshiach throughout the generations.
Dear Arso,
I know a first hand account of a RY of a non chassidshe yeshiva who spoke with him about matters on a different continent.
What do you mean that he wasn’t spending time on communal needs? He built the whole Chabad network across continents. He was involved in many non Chabad communal needs.
I don’t know what you are like, but I made an assumption about a different poster. This is how the Rebbe reacted when he was challenged by people who wouldn’t learn.
If all you know about him is the sichos, then what is the issue? That the sichos don’t support what Chabad says today?!? They 2023 Chabadsker teenager is definitely more in line with the sichos than anything else!
Dear Da,
As far as I know, there is nothing Chabad about this source.
The site is otzar .org not otzar .com
Dear Avira,
Now, now. How would that be possible? Is the Chacham just seeing stuff in his head?
Do you realize that you contradicted your earlier posts?
Dear Avira,
I’m not sure what you are seeing in the meforshim. We know that Nevuah is not what it was in the times of the Bayis Rishon. It is mefurishe pesukim. We do not need the Vilna Goan for that.
I would have to track down all your sources individually.
Seder Olam is clearly coming from the Midrash. Nothing new here.
I saw this piece from Rav Tzaddok inside before. The same way he isn’t saying there is no A’Z anywhere on Earth, he does not mean that there is no ability to attain Nevuah. It means that the world doesn’t work that way anymore. The Idolatry Age was parallel with the availability of Nevuah. I don’t remember if I saw the Goan firsthand, but I always understood it like this Rav Tzadok.
More importantly, nobody ever says that any prophet who comes along today, will be killed because he is automatically a false prophet.
I intend to look up the Michtav Meliyahu when I get a chance.
Dear Avira,
I’m not a mekubal at all. I don’t have limits on what seforim I open. The Rashba was against following this person. But about half of his teachings were mainstreamed even before Shabbtai Tzvi. And now we know that the Arizal continued to incorporate these methods even afterwards.
Dear Menachem,
Okay, I didn’t follow you well. I recant. The Chassam Sofer is definitely backing you up on this.
Good tzu shtel!
Dear Avram,
Excellent post!
Admittedly, the nonstop Chabad talk is getting to me. Possibly, I chose to vent to you because I know that you will only respond methodically and clearly.
To your point first:
“My points (mostly ignored) have been more focused on where Chabad is forming dividing lines with the rest of frum Jewry.”
This is worth considering. The truth is that all groups do this to some level. It has been taken to extreme recently by all parts of Orthodox Judaism. Some are only knowable from the inside. Some are only visible online. Since Chabad by design is trying to attract the whole world, their claim to exclusivity is much harder to hide. I made this point before. Also, you can find Chabad speakers all over the internet. Other groups are not as public. Maybe you mean something more specific.
I am serious about the min/apikores/kofer/mumar/etc prism. I don’t think it’s so easy to separate from Klal Yisroel while still being fully observant and treating others properly. Especially as a whole group. I don’t see anything abnormal about Chabad. Every group has their thing that makes them different. It is intrinsic to being sub divided into groups.
From your first post:
“…but whether Chabad’s veneration of the Lubavitcher Rebbe is on par with avoda zara or not.”
I don’t even know why anybody would think it is a problem if they have gone through the sugya. If the point is something to do with secular anthropology, I don’t know why that is an issue. There are venerated icon’s in every society.
Back to today’s post:
” Maybe I’m misunderstanding something, but Chabad seems to claim that their teachings bring mysticism from the realm of the esoteric to the reach of every Jew.”
and
“But when faced with any questions or challenges on these supposedly mystical topics (or whether people are misunderstanding them to great risk), they seem to argue that the concepts are just too esoteric and holy for our stunted little Litvish souls to grasp.”
Now, this is a discussion! You don’t seem to have a problem with either point other than the debate here is playing both sides. Am I right about that, or do you have an objection to one or both of these points?
I agree with you that Chabad plays the you can’t know card. Having seen it a bit from the inside, my theory is that it works like this:
Chabad was always mystically inclined. How well it worked in the old world, is not the subject here. When they came to America, they wanted to keep that way. The problem is that they were stepping into the modern world and rationalism was dominating everything else. The solution was to double down and not give an inch. A very Chabad way of reacting to a problem. So Kabbalah which had been in the open in Europe, was now systemized to be taught everywhere. The Rebbe spent four decades advocating kabbalistic ideas and the spread of it’s teachings. Naturally, no area of Jewish thought was out of bounds. Many subjects which are not mundane at all, received much more attention in Chabad than the rest of us were giving it.
Every educator knows that just because you make a deep subject teachable, it doesn’t mean that the students will grasp the deeper concepts. And even those that can repeat the subject matter do not necessarily know the origin of it’s ideas. That is what we are experiencing with Chabad. Those that follow along with the curriculum, can talk endlessly about these concepts and how they work with each other. But they seem to know little in why it has to be this way and not some other way. Their only defense is finding a source in some sichah. Since their knowledge is based on integration as opposed to foundations, they assume we are just lacking in all the confirming information. They do not understand that we are questioning the fundamental concepts.
I have had fun night long bull sessions with many a Chabadsker. Only once did I meet one who seemed more like a conceptual thinker. He really had no interest in the whole united leader, leading us to our destiny concept. Also, Chabad has a massive network. I imagine that those that really know all the mystical stuff are not the ones we are interacting with. Maybe they are as hard to find as a yeshivshe mekubal.
This is my response to Chabad having it both ways. They are trying to spread a simple kabbalah to the whole world. They aren’t questioning what they are taught. (Which group does?) So they claim that everyone can accept it like they do. But without accepting the simple form of it, it can’t be understood without really studying it.
In a line. It is simple to accept, but esoteric in it’s real meaning.
I have been accused of cynicism my whole life. Whatever my virtues, I really fail at tribalism.
PS If I missed the thrust of your post, than instead of a response to me just post your issue with Chabad and I’ll take it from there.
PPS The Chabad topic bores me because it is just a bunch of misunderstandings. Other topics have much more potential for substance from both sides.
Dear Avira,
Do you look anything up?
Here is the Chasam Sofer. 2:356
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1839&st=&pgnum=294
Even one who understands Rav Hillel Like Rashi is a Kofer for saying he holds like him.
Dear Menachem,
The Chassam Sofer wouldn’t apply to your reasoning.
It is a slightly problematic source for the whole Chabad Moshiach Enterprise. Since The majority of Yidden did not align their concept of Moshiach with the shift from Europe to America, than perhaps even Lubavitch is obligated to follow the majority. There are other ways to maintain the faith in the ultimate redemption.
Dear Avira,
Who says they were told anything to tell others? The Gemara says there where over a million neviim…
I still find your fascination with ‘Ko Amar Hashem’ humorous.
In one instance there was a yid going around with messages from Hashem, making predictions, and performing signs and miracles. What exactly he was, has never been settled. And it seems like all the later mekubalim accepted his teachings until the Arizal redid everything.
If you have no idea what the sources say, you can learn them or talk to people who do. The fact is that you are denying an activity that you are admitting to having no knowledge of how it is performed. And I am asserting that you have never studied what Nevuah actually is. The Moreh Nevuchim is a good place to start.
But somehow you are convinced that you have all the knowledge you need. Which is some statement from Chabad that must be reversed. If Chabad would sleep in the sukkah, you wouldn’t.
Dear Anonymous,
“There were no mystical attachments.”
Huh?
Did you experience it? Are you claiming to have been there?
What do you think mysticism is?
Dear Qwerty,
Instead of taking a step back, step up and answer the questions that were put to you. You are being more evasive than any Chabadtsker on this thread.
I didn’t notice any posters claiming that The Rebbe was coronated as Moshiach.
Around the time of the Six Day War there was a global campaign to discredit Rav Moshe.
Nothing in Judaism has been universal for a long, long time.
There were Torah Giants of infinite magnitude that were living in obscurity, especially in the postwar decades.
I think Rav Moshe and the Chabadsker Rebbe have met in person.
Nevuah is definable. But I won’t know exactly until I have a prophetic experience. Who accept as a Navi also has parameters. But it clearly is not foolproof. And it follows, that one can be a Navi with nobody knowing about it.
Nobody on this thread asked for you to trust Chabad. The question is, why are we so obsessed with Chabad’s opinions? You don’t seem to be able to answer for yourself. If I could talk for you I would say that you don’t have any of your own opinions on the matter. So you become Anti Chabad in place of anything worthwhile.
“Finally, how ridiculous is it to suggest that the Rebbe understood Pshatim in the Gemara that no one in the last 2000 years knew?”
It is very ridiculous.
1) The statements in question are not yet 2000 years old.
2) The Rambam makes an allowance for rejecting the sources about the messianic age.
3) You must be very bothered by Rav Shach’s very novel pieces in Sefer Avi Ezri.
4) The Rebbe’s encyclopedic knowledge, near photographic memory, and lighting-fast wit, enabled him to validate himself with sources in seconds. If this was your main issue and you discovered the secret concept of learning to better understand, and had you gone to The Rebbe and asked for sources – he would have given you a dozen sources for every point in one minute.
I am very against inferring real world abilities, from virtual interactions. But it does seem like you really never learn anything.
Dear Arso,
I think you have two issues with Lubavitch. All the details will fall into one of two categories.
1) They/he promote themselves and ignore the rest of us.
2) They/he explains Jewish concepts contrary to the norm.
I don’t know why either one should bother me as an outsider. But anyways, each problem is an answer for the other issue so there isn’t any reason for any Lubavitchers to think you have a point. It comes down to is the beholder Lubavitch. If he is, it all fits. If he is not, than it doesn’t work. So move on.
Dear Avira,
I linked to that Gemara. It’s a source that nevuah is not heaven sent words.
The newer parts of Eitz Chaim describe the methods to attain prophecy. These methods come from yidden who claimed to have attained prophecy in the last thousand years. These original writings were published only recently. Your yeshiva may have a copy. Check the Kabbala section.
I am not claiming the Rebbe had anything to do with prophecy. It is irrelevant to the sugya. For those who go by Torah Sources and not superficial-my-teacher-told-me, there is no end of nevuah. And chas v’shalom to even believe such a thing. Nevuah is less common and less authentic then it was in the times of Tanach.
Dear Sechel,
The Litvaks issue with these things is that these concepts were also learned them before the Baal Shem. They don’t need to readjust everything to fit in that prism.
Dear Sechel,
I don’t understand why non Chabad opinions are important to you.
Dear Jude,
Yet it seems that the Anti Chabad of today hangs on to The Rebbe’s every word in the most literal sense possible!
Dear Avira,
My question is what to you do with seforim from our gedolim that contradict you understanding of shas? For example, Rav Meshulem Iggra.
Dear Avira,
If I am correct than the Meor Ainayim was a contemporary of the Tanya. My question is if you learned the Chassidus from the 19th and 20th centuries that is more like the original. Or did you switch to Rav Tzadok and Sfas Emes like the majority of Polish Yidden.
Dear Avira,
This explicit gemara did not say anything about Nevuah. Somehow you quoted it as such. Then you amended it to clearly referring to nevuah, which is not clear at all. And if the reader is not familiar with the concepts of nevuah will never find it anywhere in on the page. The only words are ‘when the last prophets died..’ which is reffering to the last recorded prophets. Nowhere else are they known as the last prophets. And we know from other sources that there where more people who attained prophecy in their day. Yet only these three are ever called ‘the last prophets’.
“Nevuah is ko amar Hashem. The words of Hashem communicated to a person. Ruach hakodesh is either what Hashem puts into your head, or being mechaven to the emes in learning.”
I have not yet attained prophecy or anything like it. Have you? How do you know these things? The Rishonim debated these meanings strongly. Nevuah is understood as being behind the words. The words are from the Navi themself. With some exceptions, where exact words may have been given. Ruach Hakodesh and Bas Kol are used at the will of the prophet. As is found in the Gemara you quoted is. I find your use of Ko Amar Hashem in this conversation to be very odd.
I laid out the sources for you…….
Dear Coffee,
What you mentioned is about seeing Eliyahu Hanavi in the here and now, not about the future mission as the Herald of Moshiach. The fact that people could see Eliyahu Hanavi in our day, is also evidence that we are not without spiritual ability.
I have something to add to the Rebbe Is Moshiach conversation. Being that you are a renowned poster, I’ll address it to you. Too many here have lost their sense of reason. Who knew that Chabad is contagious?
There has always been a major tension between the Moshiach as portrayed in the Kabbalah and the Moshiach that is discussed in the Gemara. Kabbalah portrays a continuing mission that spans all realms. Halachists only see the man at the end who will fulfil all the conditions of Moshiach. There isn’t any contradiction. Just tension. And that tension is being twisted into this thread.
It is easy enough to go through the topic without being stuck in a contradiction. It seems to me that most posters would rather not resolve the tension.
Dear Avira,
“Evidently Hashem cares a lot about words and titles, because if a navi says something in the name of Hashem – even if it’s innocuous – and Hashem didn’t say it, he is chayav misa. He is killed.”
That is not what is going on here. I don’t know how you got this lost. But I suspect that you never got into the iyun on the sugya of nevuah.
You asked if anyone was called a navi in the last 2000 years. You assumed that being called a navi has meaning. I tried to explain to you that your assumption is not correct. And you responded with above. Please find your way back.
And you asked the question differently. “Now i ask again, has anyone in the past 2000 years said “ko amar Hashem”, or any other such phrase, have they claimed to receive a direct communication from Hashem Himself?”
Yes. Where have you been during Jewish History classes? Some of them have been shown up to be frauds. Some have many different versions. And a few have seforim on our shelves. We can’t know to the extreme degree who is a legit prophet. And we don’t have to know.“You’re trying awfully hard to avoid the idea that nevuah is no longer available today – why is that? Is it affinity for chabad?”
I put right in the beginning that this has nothing to with Chabad. It’s about learning to understand. Do you always cross out the lines that don’t fit with your assumptions?
I’ll post it again for this page.
Maybe somebody on this site wants to learn.At this point, I do not want to associate my yeshiva background with some of the posters on this thread. To me, it was about learning. Not denying what this one or that one learned. Some people know nothing. Rather they spent their entire time in beis medrash trying to “prove” that the other derech is wrong. It never dawns on them, that you have to learn things different ways to then select the better way. If you always “learn” one way, then you don’t realize that all the proofs you bring are only according to that one way. And someone who learns differently, has no idea why you think you are proving anything.
Nevuah is not a Lubavitch concept. I have no knowledge of what the Rebbe said or wrote on the topic. I do know that the claim that there is absolutely no prophecy in the present day is absurd and is only possible with a very superficial reading of the sources.
I once had the opportunity to learn through the topic with a Talmid Chochom. I’m just going to give the classic sources that have been alluded to here. We are disgracing all ancestors by rabble rousing without learning anything. If we would go back in time, our hashkafa would be meaningless to them. Because the fact that we don’t actually learn, will cast us as laughingstock.
The original beraisa about the the End of the Neviim is in Midrash Chazisa. Note, that it talks about Ruach Hakodesh and not Nevuah.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14384&st=&pgnum=324
The context is the spiritual lost opportunities of the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash. It is clear in the discourse that these opportunities do not completely disappear.
Based on this, it is included in the Tosefta on Sotah. This is the correct context for where we lost our greatness throughout the generations.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14307&st=&pgnum=562
However, the Yerushalmi there brings the story as a saying in the name of Reb Yehoshua be Levi. It does not mention the statement that Ruach Hakodesh stopped.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14142&st=&pgnum=587
It is also brought in Y. A”Z (beginning of ch. 3) on how they were great enough to influence their surroundings.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14136&st=&pgnum=616
And in Y. Horayos (end of ch. 3) in relation to the greatness of chachomim.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14136&st=&pgnum=694
The Bavli in Sanhedrin 11a is in the same vein. (Specifically, to the chachomim that deliberated on the months and years.)
https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=24&daf=11&format=pdf
And the Gemara in Yoma 9b is about the opportunities provided by the existence of the Bais Hamikdash and lost in their destruction. This is the closest to the original found in the Midrash.
https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=6&daf=9&format=pdf
In all of these sources, it mentions using Ruach Hakodesh on events that were at the end of; or even after the Second Temple. And well after Neviim Acharonim. Nothing about Nevuah and it clearly was still in use. The concept of using the Bas Kol seems like something they did with some regularity.
The Gemara that calls Chaggai, Zechariah, Malachi, the end of Neviim, clearly mens the last written books. See Rashi.
B”B 14a https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=23&daf=14b&format=pdfHere the Gemara discusses actual prophecy. The point is that it is still in existence if one cares to look for it.
B”B 12 a & b https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=23&daf=12&format=pdfPeople quote the Rambam that there is no more prophecy. It’s a misquote from Yesodei Hatorah 9:2
כְּמוֹ שֶׁאָמַר הָאַחֲרוֹן שֶׁבָּהֶן followed by a pasuk from Malachi. This is the same as the Rashi above. There is more nuance if one learns the whole perek.Incidentally, they also use the wrong Rambam as a source that Moshiach will be a Navi.
The Rambam in Teshuva 9:2 is explicit:
מִפְּנֵי שֶׁאוֹתוֹ הַמֶּלֶךְ שֶׁיַּעֲמֹד מִזֶּרַע דָּוִד בַּעַל חָכְמָה יִהְיֶה יֶתֶר מִשְּׁלֹמֹה וְנָבִיא גָּדוֹל הוּא קָרוֹב לְמשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ.The idea that we preserved these abilities and can still access them is a mainstream one. Everybody should be all in on it.
Here is a famous Divrei Chaim that accepting the Gedolei Yisroel is to realize that they have Ruach Hakodesh. Yoreh Dayah II 105
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=913&st=&pgnum=3Dear Avira,
“please provide one person called a navi in a serious context”
Why is it always about being called the title? Orthodox, apikores, navi, etc. It seems like you really need to reexamine the fundamentals.
A false prophet will be called a prophet by those whom he misleads. A true prophet has to be truthful. He doesn’t need to have a prophecy profile on LinkedIn.
But even from your limited perspective, there was the renowned Chozeh of Lublin. He wasn’t a one off example.
This is getting out of hand.
Nevuah is not a Lubavitch concept. I have no knowledge of what the Rebbe said or wrote on the topic. I do know that the claim that there is absolutely no prophecy in the present day is absurd and is only possible with a very superficial reading of the sources.
I once had the opportunity to learn through the topic with a Talmid Chochom. I’m just going to give the classic sources that have been alluded to here. We are disgracing all ancestors by rabble rousing without learning anything</anything>. If we would go back in time, our hashkafa would be meaningless to them. The fact that we don’t actually learn, will cast us as laughingstock.
The original beraisa about the the End of the Neviim is in Midrash Chazisa. Note, that it talks about Ruach Hakodesh and not Nevuah.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14384&st=&pgnum=324
The context is the spiritual lost opportunities of the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash. It is clear in the discourse that these opportunities do not completely disappear.
Based on this, it is included in the Tosefta on Sotah. This is the correct context for where we lost our greatness throughout the generations.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14307&st=&pgnum=562
However, the Yerushalmi there brings the story as a saying in the name of Reb Yehoshua be Levi. It does not mention the statement that Ruach Hakodesh stopped.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14142&st=&pgnum=587
It is also brought in Y. A”Z (beginning of ch. 3) on how they were great enough to influence their surroundings.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14136&st=&pgnum=616
And in Y. Horayos (end of ch. 3) in relation to the greatness of chachomim.
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14136&st=&pgnum=694
The Bavli in Sanhedrin 11a is in the same vein. (Specifically, to the chachomim that deliberated on the months and years.)
https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=24&daf=11&format=pdf
And the Gemara in Yoma 9b is about the opportunities provided by the existence of the Bais Hamikdash and lost in their destruction. This is the closest to the original found in the Midrash.
https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=6&daf=9&format=pdf
In all of these sources, it mentions using Ruach Hakodesh on events that were at the end of; or even after the Second Temple. And well after Neviim Acharonim. Nothing about Nevuah and it clearly was still in use. The concept of using the Bas Kol seems like something they did with some regularity.
The Gemara that calls Chaggai, Zechariah, Malachi, the end of Neviim, clearly mens the last written books. See Rashi.
B”B 14a https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=23&daf=14b&format=pdfHere the Gemara discusses actual prophecy. The point is that it is still in existence if one cares to look for it.
B”B 12 a & b https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=23&daf=12&format=pdfPeople quote the Rambam that there is no more prophecy. It’s a misquote from Yesodei Hatorah 9:2
כְּמוֹ שֶׁאָמַר הָאַחֲרוֹן שֶׁבָּהֶן followed by a pasuk from Malachi. This is the same as the Rashi above. There is more nuance if one learns the whole perek.Incidentally, they also use the wrong Rambam as a source that Moshiach will be a Navi.
The Rambam in Teshuva 9:2 is explicit:
מִפְּנֵי שֶׁאוֹתוֹ הַמֶּלֶךְ שֶׁיַּעֲמֹד מִזֶּרַע דָּוִד בַּעַל חָכְמָה יִהְיֶה יֶתֶר מִשְּׁלֹמֹה וְנָבִיא גָּדוֹל הוּא קָרוֹב לְמשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ.The idea that we preserved these abilities and can still access them is a mainstream one. Everybody should be all in on it.
Here is a famous Divrei Chaim that accepting the Gedolei Yisroel is to realize that they have Ruach Hakodesh. Yoreh Dayah II 105
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=913&st=&pgnum=381וְכֵן הָעוֹבֵד כּוֹכָב אוֹ מַזָּל וְזוּלָתוֹ כְּדֵי לִהְיוֹת מֵלִיץ בֵּינוֹ וּבֵין רִבּוֹן הָעוֹלָמִים.
This is the closest line in the Rambam to the endless Chabad = Minus threads. It is a major stretch. If this is what the Anti Chabad has in mind, we can just consider it debunked.
Dear Mdd,
Whatever you mean. So show where Chabad has minus than Brisk doesn’t. If you can’t back yourself up, you shouldn’t be calling out others.
Dear Avira,
And on that pretty long list is some of our greatest Torah Geniuses. So, how are you making a point here? You could just admit that you don’t learn any authentic chassidus after Tanya. Nobody will look unkindly at you for it. Many Chassidum don’t learn real chassidus either.
Not what the Gemara says. And anyways the contradiction is in the Gemara itself. So don’t blame it on the Rebbe.
The Goan isn’t a proof to anything. It is more likely he agreed with Sechel83 on this one.
Dear Avira,
“but I have no issue with his toras on other matters…i still choose not to learn them regularly because my rebbeim did not hold him to be a gadol byisroel warranting such.”
Does this mean that you learn everyone that your rebbeim hold of their gadlus? I thought it goes by the capabilities of the student. Not the perspective of the master.
Dear Qwerty,
“The Gemara explicitly said that Nevuah ended during the 2nd Temple period and will not be restored until Moshiach comes.”
There is no such Gemara.
Where does that place you in your own belief system?
Why do you not answer questions directed to you?
Why does Chabad owe you any answers?
You clearly never made a good faith effort to try to understand them.
Dear Avram,
“.. on par with Avodah Zarah or not.”
A”Z is not the same as minus.
There is no A”Z here because there is no worship other than going to the ohel. Which is no different than going to any other kever.
Saying yechi, even including divine identifactions for the rebbe, is never A”Z. It would only be minus with an overall context of a new order. (Order as in teaching, belief, dogma.)
The easiest way to test the boundaries of klal yisroel is to become a mumar. This can’t be applied to Chabad as they are as observant as the rest of us.
I have pointed this out dozens and dozens of times. Every poster here seems more interested in piling on Chabad for the sillies things, than responding to how they understand these basic concepts. I have come to accept that pettiness is their highest dogma.
Maybe you can forgive me for having the opinion that yidden don’t care at all about what it really means to accept the Kingdom of Hashem. They prattle about it a bit for Rosh Hashana and can’t make sense of it. So they move on to the rest of their year. The individuals who seem to understand it, don’t really discuss it. Maybe this was what Rav Soloveitchik meant when he said that it is something to experience and cannot be taught.
Dear Mdd,
Nobody ever hinted at the idea that the Rebbe was sired by a god. If you think way out comparisons are exact, than you can be excused for thinking that you have a point.
Dear Arso,
You missed the difference. If you understand all the parts of ” there is nothing wrong with davening to a tzaddik because he is atzmus melubash baguf” than you know that it is not at an out of bounds idea.
Dear Avira,
Either the Chazon Ish said it or he didn’t. The Rebbe and The Chazon Ish were allowed to disagree.
You have ignored my points on your opinions about kivrei tzaddikim. I am even more against it then you. But you think that we are the majority. The problem is that every one was and is doing it. The Arizal was something close to the idea in sicha. To say oitherwise, would mean he was basically a tourist looking for a more exotic kever experience.
Dear Qwerty,
I don’t understand the question. The Rebbe knew shas and knew how to learn. It is a contradiction. All of the Ramabam’s seven causes for contradiction can be applied here. And anyways, this is not even his chiddish. Rav Tzadok Hakohen has a long essay saying that we don’t follow this whole sugyah. And every Jew will be redeemed as well as having a share in the world to come.
Here is a better question. I have pointed out that there isn’t any reason for outsiders to be attacking the authenticity of Chabad. Why have you not defended yourself?