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To sum up the conversation, after making a dozen or so assumptions of course it’s assur. It seems like we all agree.
On saving a kohen before a yisroel and man before a woman….
I once took it up with a very well established poster on these very holy pages. He or she kept referring to one essay that was available online. I searched for it and it was only accessible on small sites with giving a lot of personal information. Or it was behind a paywall. From what I was able to recover, it was all about obliterating the sources. Which is below my standard of evidence.
I then posted on this site the basic sources starting with Mishna. This one poster engaged me and then rudely ignored me as I was going through the major acharonim. He or she posted on some other threads a few more times, and then completely vanished. And I never got around to posting the correct interpretation of the Chazon Ish😢
How could everyone leave out toenail fungus!?
Dear Syag,
I hear your point. I disagree. And it is not out of any negative perception of women not driving.
Dear Yabia, let me prove your point.
Dear Avira, your post is exhibit A.
Dear Ujm, your post is exhibit B.
The OP observed that a large portion of the discussion here devolves into the same long held communal divisions. And these divisive viewpoints come with the territory, maybe they even are the home turf, of largely Ashkenazi ideologies. This is an observation of this site and it is a factual one. You observed that this is because of trauma. And you mentioned two possible circumstances.
Now, we all know that the holocaust and the enlistment had profound influences on the Ashkenazi communal structure. This can be regarded as a casualty of history in two ways.
1. Reactionary
2. Trauma
We can come up with more, but this will be enough to prove the OP’s point. How we can test which one? Just post it! If the responses come back as well, it was not the trauma it was natural communal progression away from the pitfalls of enlightenment, or it was the way different communities conceptualized the European experience, then there is no trauma involved just different types of communal thought. But if The purpose is to attack, then we can assume there is no real communal rational, rather it is the result of trauma.In Exhibit A, we have exactly that. And, it lends a justification that anti Semites made a similar claim. Which implies that Judaism is attacked as contentious, so you cannot claim that being divisive is a result of trauma.
Exhibit B also is not an attack, but a counter attack. Again no reason is offered as to the cause of the schism. It also implies that being the seat of Torah is the real cause. Which is absurd. If they really were the seat of the Torah world, why did they not have the answers to their communal challenges? And why they divide and subdivide into all these denominations? Could it be that they were not interested in the truth? Yet none of this is explored. So even though EXHIBIT B hints at an alternate hypothesis, the unwillingness to investigate, again points to trauma.
Though this gives a new source for the trauma. It was the trauma of being unable to get answers to basic communal problems from their own Torah. Hey look dear Ujm, I agree to the basics your hashkafah!
Now it should be pointed out that we only have responses from one side of the common spats. But it can be pointed out that if only one group was traumatized they would be mostly left alone.from that there debates are continuous, it seems like there is trauma all around.
Dear User,
“The vaccine certainly does not save lives” and “it lessens the severity of the disease” seems like a contradiction. Or a mistype. As an aside, the partial immune response initiated by the vaccine, is the same molecular compound and just as natural as the immune response of an actual infection. Though it is believed to be less robust.
It is not obvious that antibodies alone protect from reinfection. Previous exposures usually give the immune systems much more tools than just antibodies. Experiments conducted last year demonstrated the ability to repeatedly effect the body with covid. Admittedly, this was a lab experiment and is very difficult for it to occur through regular human interaction.
But this discussion is for when this will become just another endemic disease. Until them it is all about slowing or stopping the thread.
Dear Always,
Your getting technical with whom is spreading how much disease. Frankly, that is none of our business. The real discussion is how much more immunity does the USA need to get to an endemic disease? This seems to be the question for the Mid East, South America, Europe, Canada, and The Caribbean. Why is nobody talking about this, or am I missing it in the general media?
Dear Philosopher,
You added an infinite lol with the rest of your post. To think that you did not even know that you had it in you. But then again…… that is to think. So please go on.
Dear Avira,
My point is that success is in the hands of the student, not the system. Do we agree that yeshiva boys learning nach is not a threat to the product?
Dear Reb Eliezer,
Anyone can use a picture of someone else. Or an old picture. Or photo shop his eyes. Etc.
Dear Avira,
English sermons and English services were the same controversy at am early point. Even Chacham Barnays faced heavy backlash for speaking in German.
Dear TS,
For that reasoning, one can not go shopping on Black Friday either. Or any secular based shopping, including back to school. It should also be forbidden to follow the news, engage in sports, or care about politics. Come to think of it, I could get behind this new issur!
Dear Abba,
More or less agreed. Biden is better for the middle class on this one. As if that helps.
Correction: non partisan problems….
Lo silbash!
Dear Shimon,
Finding a shul with more camaraderie the conflict is a taller task!
Dear Coffee,
Thanks for the welcome! Where would you rather the increase in revenues for meaningless spending come from?
Dear Abba,
You are confusing what is solutions to no partisan problems with the actual problems.
Dear Ujm,
The same would apply to using the common vernacular in shul. As well as many other natures of our current communal life. History has proven your argument incorrect.
Dear Reb Eliezer,
Innocent looking pictures do nothing to tell facts.
Dear Common,
After a some time, the teens become adults and are replaced by new teens. Except me. I will always be a teen.
Your welcome! May it serve you well.
Dear Avira,
And I think that an unknown is very different than a known shift in attitude.
Dear Ujm,
So what?
Dear Avira,
You misunderstood. The top of these Yeshivos have some boys from modern backgrounds. Meaning, some of the best boys go on to these yeshivos and learn the same as the boys from the yeshiva background. Which points to the fact that the curriculum is not what makes the product. The regular yeshivos can switch to learning navi all day, and it would not alter the product in any personal way. Your being personal on the wrong topic.
The same way the yeshiva product is not based on Nov learning nach, the modern product is not based on emphasizing it.But now that you have given your full rant, I think your looking at the modern community as incompetent at it’s core. And the yeshiva community as successful to it’s mission. So then you lined up what they are practically doing with what you assumed to be their outcomes. I strongly disagree. Most observant Jewish communities are remarkably parallel. Because our terminology is different for the same nouns, we think ourselves to be much more different.
Again, any learning boy or girl that has the opportunity to study nach, most definitely should.
Dear EJM,
And to think what your post says about your own growth! ! It also speaks to missing the flow of the conversation.
Dear Reb Eliezer,
I doubt the veracity of that specific like. I’m not sure why that would make it less pidyon shivuyim.
Dear Syag,
I could agree on both points. But a dinner could early be celebrated while avoiding both issues.
Dear Ujm,
Totally not. I just keep doing what I was doing yesterday.
The mods here have possible utopian quality.
Dear Gadol,
Why do assume that women are not making those statements?
Dear Avira,
Thanksgiving is different than the Maharik. It is not merely cultural, possibly stemming from idolatry. We know where it comes from. And it has a clear modern rationale to it.
Dear Avira,
I have heard that Rav Pam was of the opinion that it is permitted. It should be noted that the Pams do not eat turkey at all.
Dear Ujm,
Why are you convinced that the historical context matters? If it is not idolatry now, why should it be forbidden?
If you have a good meal in your own home, how is that celebrating their holiday? It’s your home. Which is a Jewish home.
Nope. Effected. As in caused by something. I could have just written, the strength of the yeshiva is not caused by not learning navi.
I’m aware that you post that yeshivos are about gathering pixie dust. We disagree.
Dear Halevi,
No casualties is denialism. Even with many safeguards.
Dear Syag,
I happen to think that the more modern communities are correct to be consciously changing our practices because of the virus. So what if it becomes permanent? I would love to state my case, but I do not think it can be done well on the screen. If we were ever to be on the same delayed flight……..
Though I most definitely agree with you that the condemnation of those who did not follow the same or even any public health guidelines, was useless. And may very well be the greatest damage we endured in this entire saga.
Dear Duvid,
In the same vein, it is sad and tragic how much sickness and death there is in the Southern Hemisphere due to superstitions against basic hygiene.
Dear Right,
Our immune systems are amazing! They have so many parts and do so many things! Just having antibodies, even lots of antibodies is not the same as being immune. Covid is still pandemic. The focus is still on widespread cohesive immunity. The more we do to slow the spread, the greater chance there is that the virus will be come endemic, or seasonal. At that point, you will be correct in stating that your safeguards is up to your own judgement.
Dear Avira,
The best products of the MO schools go on to be top boys in the Mir, Brisk, and Lakewood. When looking at the cream of the yeshiva, it is much, much more diverse than the bulk of the yeshiva crop. So please take back your point. The strength of the yeshivos is not effected from not learning navi.
Dear Halevi,
I agree. What is not emphasized in the yeshiva does not mean that there is less value in knowing or learning it. The Fallsberg Rosh Yeshiva says that yeshiva boys should be learning Zohar too. Yet, the common belief is that yeshiva boys are not supposed too be learning it.
Keep up the good work!
I’m finding it hard to accept that there are no paid internet trolls on this site.
At fifteen, a bachur does not need his yeshiva’s encouragement to learn Torah. There is enough time to learn whatever he wants besides the yeshiva curriculum.
Again it is not a Mishna and it does not say to learn all of Tanach before starting gemara.
Dear Shimon,
I doubt that the major public pidyon shivuyin campaigns are about keeping yidden out of jail. But if that is really your take, I can get you lists of Jewish adolescents that are in jail or facing jail time over minor infractions.
Dear Avira,
Your assuming there kids had very little knowledge of what they were involved with.
I think you are referring to the gemara in the first chapter of b”b. That is illegal captivity. Maybe jail could be fit in there too.
I buy useless properties and live in them until they are usable or demolished. When I’m low on cash I come back and take a basic job.
Agreed.