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Dear Ujm,
Honestly, not a chance. Not at any point in my life. Including today. Only in the course of debate. My thinking is all over the place. No one hashkafa can possibly contain all my errors🤦♂️.
this case is not about abortion. it is about the future of the justice system. Is it to uphold society, or to make sure there is enough ‘process’ and ‘jurisdiction’ so that all lawyers get paid?
As an aside, I think this post is based on a mistake. The case I’m aware of, is if the fifth circuit is forced to issue a stay on abortions, while it considers taking on the Texas law, Even if the SCOTUS does not rule for a stay, the law itself will still be in court.
Dear Ujm,
I’m not advocating for abortions. I’m just asking you to include the social consequences.
For some people, religion is all about externals. They are very sensitive about this, and we do not want to offend them. So we play along. Otherwise, we would all be doing like the Ramchal wrote “to wear what ever hides our flesh”. Our clothing will never fool Him.
Dear Ujm,
If that would happen, what is your plan for coping with all the crack babies?
Dear Always,
Judaism is based off of reality, the revelation, and prophecy. When there is a lapse and we are unsure, historically we have always doubled down on Torah study, until we recovered our direction. Until we reach clarity we have a dictum, better be called a fool all my days, then be seen as wicked even once before God. Some people save this dictum only for when they have clarity.
Torah is not merely data then can be lost or retrieved. It is living. More alive than anything but life itself. From Rabban Yochanon Ben Zakkai to Rav Sadya Goan To Rashi to the Maharshal to the Ramchal to Rav Hirsch to Rav Chaim to Aryeh Kaplan, there is not any genesis of a new torah. The study of Torah is by itself self replicating, as is any organism capable of being sustained by life.
Torah is immense. Mesorah and halachah combine for a fraction of a fraction of The Entirety of Torah. And most of it is in regards to praxis, anyway. And to read your whole post, it makes no sense. If Judaism is based on mesorah and that only is existent from our rabbis giving it over, then how could it be that each Jewish Community has a different mesorah, but the same Judaism?
PS I’m not really disagreeing, as much as trying to separate the different topics.
Dear Avira,
I see that you are framing the debate like this. There is the Yeshiva Mehalech Halimud, or the Academic Blither Blather. This is the direct heritage of the theological battle of yore, (which is not really investigated honestly. Yeshiva Blither versus Academic Blather). now, it is obvious that these academics are clueless. (I assume we both mean those who want to reimagine entire sugyos because they found one source that every tenth grader is aware of.) Therefore the Yeshiva has a monopoly on the only real way to study The Torah truthfully. Any other way will fail. And the academics are clueless because they tried on their own. In conclusion, anybody who is not learning in the yeshiva way, or better yet was rejected by The Rosh Yeshiva (For example Steinsaltz.) must have tried on his own and is no better than the academics.
We could all yell at the wall, but I think it is practically very difficult. When would you bring it up? As a prerequisite to dating? After your already engaged? Just not legally changing your name after marriage? It is threading a needle. If you make a big deal, people will say so what and it will not be worth the hassle. And if you do not make a big deal, people will just call you by your husband’s name.
Because the law created by people, is what matters. What the reality is in Hashem’s world has no relevance to what our views are.
Your idea of mesorah is confusing. Is it a way of study? The traditions that are still oral? A secret teaching formula? A code for understanding on your own what was not given over to you? Do you see the pattern. I do. I have seen it a hundred times. It means you can not put a finger on it. So you list the categories that apply to every living doctrine. There is nothing unique about what you call mesorah than what can be found by every philosophical, theological, or anthropological school.
The gemara predates the Mishna. And you should have known that. The Rishonim did not have a tradition on how to study the gemara. That is evident from the writings that they wrote on the mesechta. Any reader notices at once that the authors are working through the basic text of the Talmud. If they were given a certain method, we would see it being employed. To say the Geonim had a mesorah regarding the Talmud, would appear to be correct. Alas, we can discern a tradition at work in their writings. But we can only guess what it was. Obviously, that tradition is lost from us.
We could get into a discussion on Rashi and Tosafos disagreeing in both the basic gemara concepts and their methods of understanding the Talmud. But it would not produce an argument from me that is relevant to this discussion.
I’m not sure what your last line is. But other than societal context, it is hard for me to really parse the opinions of each pair. And I do not know how serious those controversies were. They only are remembered because the other side was also a significant scholar. If it was me instead, I would be considered more yeshivish for it. Like according to the camel is the load line of thing.
Dear Avira,
I hear your experience. And I still am telling you that it is the same in every community I know. The only difference is the starting point. The momentum and direction are too similar to avoid parallel results.
I mean it from a communal perspective. Of course certain individuals will do better in one place over the other.
Do tell!
This is not the place for anything objective. So just to start with some subjectivity……
I consider Fauci one of ten greatest American born scientists ever. And that was before covid. How many of you would know who he is, if Trump would not have put him on the communists task force.
Dear Bob,
I think he published a book.
Dear Health,
He actually said it has not been proven by the data. And then there was a long discussion here to explain to you what that could possibly mean. Good times!
But somehow we deluded ourselves that this is different.
Dear Depressed,
Nice fairy tale! Can you really find a yeshiva that studied nach two or three centuries ago?
Big words coming from somebody who rejected the community Hashem sent him into without properly understanding their relationship with Torah. You are doing it again in the yeshiva world. The Torah giants and the major thinkers of the yeshivos do not play your game.
Now here is what you missed.
Nineteenth century history. Unless you want to join Netziv was a maskil and not deserving to be a Rosh Yeshiva club.
The Rambam connects Rav Ashi with Sinai. That refers to the existence of Talmud. Not Judaism.
The Mishna connects the courts or our ethicis with Sinai. Are you insinuating that without this one Mishna, we should assume that the Torah showed us one hundred fifty years ago? (Or whenever you assume was The Great Theological Battle Of Torah True Jews Versus Jews Who Could Not Have Been Torah True Because They Disagreed Over Something That We Did Not Even Care About. Again, I think parts of both the modern and yeshiva world stake their validity to this event having taken place.)
After Chazzal……. When was Chazzal? Were they always zal?
Learned from a rebbe…. The Shagas Arye? The Baal Shem? The Rogotchover? Rav Elyashiv? The ones we never hear about?
Meshamesh….. So get some shimush. You’ll no you have shimush when it ish implicit that his mind is unreadable. And you have to see his actions and reactions to know what he thinks.
No one just opened a sefer and wrote what they wanted. Do you mean just randomly editing what was already published? Maybe that is correct. But entire Seforim have been written without any method of that the writer was trying to convey. Or to cover a topic were the author writes repeatedly, that he never learned these topics.
No idea what your acharonim on rishonim point is.
Do you ever study Rav Akiva Eiger like I do? Or do you see those words and shrug?
My view is that the Torah is divine and those who teach it are the apex of all mortals. If that is correct, what a tradition – even the best tradition add to it’s integrity?
I realize that we could be missing each other completely. I humbly suggest that this topic works the other way. You can think anything. Nobody else knows what is in your head. The sugya is not what must I believe, but what do we believe. So the question is not what is my obligation or exemption. But what am I gaining insight into, versus what am I missing out on. Sure, one can follow some witless academic into a systemized construct that needs no Ikkrim at all. But that follower will lose out on much of the breadth and depth of our heritage. Besides for that academic possibly being an apekorus and missing out on both worlds.
In light of this, what points the Rambam to respond to Taku. Of course there is grounds to say that God is corporeal. But that is not what we Jews think. So what is there to gain?
Dear Haleivi,
I politely disagree. There is more Bittul Torah than ever before. The ability to learn and learn endlessly is definitely thriving. The commitment to do so, is not. And the respect for those who attempt it, is withering away.There is no reason to mention academics that have zero objectivity. For those who excelled in yeshiva, it is all a waste of time except the best scholars or essays. [I’m talking about academics discussing Torah topics. Not fields which have more objectivity in today’s universities. But I assume there are some.]
Dear Haleivi,
I think your also overstating the opinion of R Moshe Taku. He is merely saying that since the prophets etc. had physical references to Hashem, there cannot be a prohibition me saying that God is corporeal. The idea is that knowledge of God is not an on it’s own merits obligation.
This is a deep struggle in Maimonidean thought. Can you show me where the Rambam says, that one must think or accept the Ikkarim? (Of course you can find where does not say that one does not have to.) These topics do not work with rov poskim or even accepted thought. They have to be really studied, just to know the basic implications. So the question is, what would the Rambam say to Taku? Or, would he even respond? Is it relevant?
Dear Avira,
Your entire dance of a worldview is based on nobody from the mesorah camp every having fully relied upon someone from the scholarship camp. Or someone from the scholarship camp having a major positive impact on the mesorah camp. The problem is that there needs to be some agree upon line from Sinai. And there just simply is not. All lines of mingling takes place from one edge of the spectrum to the other. Rabbis, spouses, and ideas meet up without even the slightest hint of a schismatic line in the sand. You can keep dancing around to keep up the illusion that there is some line somewhere. It is not there.but the Jews will persevere by joining up and not by drawing lines in the sand. Our Great Torah Sages parade over your lines with smiles and winks.
Look around and see how the Torah is infinitely greater than the entire world. If we all fit on Earth, kal vachomer we all fit in the Torah. It does not mean that they [or you, or me] are in accordance with the Torah. It means that the Torah is not threatened by their studies. You have already moved on from one community. No reason to get lost and confused in another community. You were not born here like I was. The yeshiva does not espouse the doctrine that you think it does.
The biggest hero of the anti Ikkurim club would be the Rambam. But then they would need to study what he actually says, and that would ruin the atmosphere in the club.
Same thing here.
The biggest hero of the both dogma club would be the Ramban. But then they would need to study that he actually says, and that would ruin the atmosphere in the club.
When your club has the some level of workable theory, the same thing would instantly apply.
Yearn for Hashem, and do not mind being without any club or community. It is the only way out of this conundrum.
Dear Avira,
You are misunderstanding my posts completely. The authorship of Perek Shirah is not at all the discussion. The controversy is that the conflicting accusations here imply that a Tosafist forgery and Karaite forgery could theoretically look the same. As to say that the division between Jews a thousand years ago did not have much depth.
You brought up how much weight to give to words of the Rishonim versus others. I really do not buy it. I think all scholars can speak for themselves. If we need to give their words added weight, than why bother with what they said? If you think that the value of Our Sages is the esteem we accord them, then why bother? Instead of going on, I’ll just respectfully disagree. The words of the Chachamim need to be delved into to the utmost. There is no place for sacred goats in Judaism.
You are even further of off the beaten path with your statement about Beraisah and Torah Shebal Peh. The focus is on the scholars not scholarship. That is not how heresy works. You seem to have compartmentalized the Rambam’s edifice of proper thought and true belief.
We agree about the intellectual dishonesty of making the student comfortable with the texts instead of properly analyzing them. As well as using under quoted
The rebb you mentioned, was he well read in their biographies, or did he just assume that. Because it sounds silly to charge Zunz, Buber, or Lieberman- with opening a sefer and not knowing all it’s contents.
That is a good question. But more of a question of concept, than substance.
Instead of contagious, I could have posted affects a larger portion of the population.
Dear Always,
More or less that is true. But if the virus keeps multiplying at an unchecked pace, the chances are that the variants would be worse. More contagious and more lethal. Like the delta variant.
Just curious. Anyone today still supports the idea of having a democracy?
Dear Avira,
This topic is about controversies. Perek Shirah is largely considered to be a legitimate midrash that appeared somewhat suddenly. Which is normal and uncontroversial. However, there were instantly two claims that it was forged. One of the Rishonim said it was forged by a Karaite. And a notable Karaite claimed that it was a forgery from a mideastern rabbi. So the controversy is how can two opposing theologies, see a forgery in the same work.
Similarly, there is an old discussion if there used to be many different versions of the Sifre and Sifra. Or if the one we possess today is the one often mentioned in the gemara…. Etc… No malice intended. My apologies.
How the lay people respond to what caused the holocaust, is an experiment in rhetoric. It does not speak to their values, motivational drive, or their spiritual temperament.
Dear Avira,
I would rather not go there? It’s been done many times. All it takes is a concession that we cannot control the truth.
Dear Avira,
It seems like your missing a piece of the puzzle. Their writings indicate that most of their time was dedicated to communal needs and not communal observance.
Dear Avira,
The majority of Jews are probably neither Ashkenazic or Sefardic.
Dear Ujm,
Your correct. Thanks for taking the time! I posted one more and it got lost somewhere it disheartened me, and I never rewrote it. After Chanukah I intend to go through the sugya again and finish posting. That will bump the thread. If I do not get to it, you can just link the thread and ask others to chime in for me.
Dear Haleivi,
Your right. I was ending the topic. Same as the post I responded to. Though I am adding some more.
Different versions of the Tanchuma.
Publication of the Midrash Rabbah.
To whom do we ascribe the basic elements of the Mishna.
The Rishonim editing the Talmud.
Availability of the Yerushalmi in medieval Europe.
How authentic is the current Sifra and Sifre.
Where the Mechillta aware of the each other.
Did the forger of perek shira believe in or oppose the supremacy of the Talmud.
Was Rabbeinu Tam or the Rambam the heir to the Geonim in Bavel.
If that type of discussion was blocked from every post, there would not be many threads getting past the first thirty responses. Y. O. Could be unhinged or racist or a troll. But he was right on topic with what animates us. We did reply. We took the bait. Kudos to the mods that are being bombarded with this provocative posts and keep on letting them through. Probably the most patient ones here.
Dear Gadol,
The Washington Baltimore area has a large amount of second and third generation Observant Jews with college degrees. Yet, it does not appear to be wealthier than the less educated communities. But I admit that it may not be a true reflection of reality.
Dear Avira,
I still maintain that your posts can be flipped to defend the modern while trashing the yeshiva. Your comparing the lower stops of the modern community to the higher rungs of the yeshiva. It sounds like that was your journey. Good for you! But that does not mean that your experience is all that is objective about this matter.
Dear Philosopher,
Thanks! Your conflating bureaucrats with government scientists. If your point is that all this public health stuff is beyond the capabilities of your average local politician, I wholeheartedly agree.
I though he was to addicted to pinball to care about chess.
Dear Always,
Thanks! It’s not so straightforward. The immunity has to hold against viral mutations.
No matter what the conditions, all of existence can be divided into have and have not. I prefer to make the distinction between those who focus on what one has and those who focus on what one does.
On the authorship of the Zohar. There are two concepts of authorship in Judaic texts. On the Zohar, both authorship questions are almost unanimously considered to be settled. Which to me is somewhat controversial because no other classic Jewish text, has a unanimous perception of even one authorship discussion.
Dear Ujm,
To be blunt, your opinion was already squashed. If there was going to be a response, it would have happened before I gave up.
But worry not! We can add on a new controversial topic. Claiming a Torah approach off of one modern day approach/custom/rabbi/essay without any regard for the great number of Torah sources. Come to think of it, this one topic may be inclusive of many others.
Dear Philosopher,
Your missing it. The issue is not really Ashkenazim or some other culture question. But why does every conversation end up in the same basic rift or two or ten? It is a question to us posting on this site, is this what we want to do? It is a good question. And I’m struggling with my own answer.
Dear Ujm,
Clear as in that it would never be applicable in the way you imagine it. It’s on this site. No need to deny it. It’s just a wonder that some be people can study a sugya in depth, and it is inconsistent with the way some other people drool their way through ideology. Amazing, is it not?
Dear Avira,
I think navi is Torah enough that it does not need qualifiers. We have come close enough to an agreement. As maybe you put similar qualifiers on all parts of Torah study.
I did not take this discussion as one about the MO communities doing something right. Why did you harp on that so much? Maybe you do not realize, but all your posts can be switched around too argue for the modern and against the yeshiva community. For someone who claims to have gone through both, it is weird and creepy that you cannot be objective.
PS I do not care for either side of this debate. They are both similarly limited to what their own academic approach. Life and the world at large, are barely noticed by either of them.
Rav Schwab is not of the same cloth as Rav Hirsch. Shiller had a lot to say against Judaism. And his writings were used in the holocaust. But I think that Rav Hirsch was aware of Shiller’s thoughts and did not worry about giving the anti Semites material. There is another part to the story that I am forgetting.