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Dear Avira,
I do not expect simple people to know better. If someone grows up in Afghanistan, I do not expect them to have a truthful idea of what the holocaust was. The same as I do not expect people who learn in a yeshiva to have a truthful understanding of what the gemara is. I do not expect people to know why flat earth is easily disproved. I do not expect people to understand what belief in a Supreme God means. It’s not about values. It’s about what are people really like. Maybe won’t keep mixing up what you value with what you believe to be true. I don’t know. Sorry I can’t help you.
Dear Point,
If you really care, then you differentiate between what people say and what they really mean. Actions speak louder than words here too.
Dear Smerel,
There phrases could mean many different things. Only the silliest think that it means the Rebbe is an actual Deity. They are so out of it anyways, that you wouldn’t associate with them anyways. And if you insist that anyone who uses those terms about the Rebbe is some sort of Apikores, than you are far more guilty of self worship than they are suspected of human worship.
Don’t misunderstand me. It is what is. The smart ones figure it out. The silly ones don’t. Why intervene?
*It should also be noted that THe R”Y Rav Feldman SHLITA, is saying a chiddush. He does not bring specific proofs. And he does not clearly explain why this is worse than the real divergent schisms of the past.
Those kabbalistic terms are metaphors. There are many permitted meanings to them. Everybody knows that those that worship the rebbe are clueless. It does not make it permissible. But it does mean that you would not eat their shechita anyways.
Dear Avira,
I would love to help you. How did you get so mixed up? Flat earth is not a Torah issue. It’s a matter of truth. Same with the holocaust. Many people are uneducated and simply do not know any better. You seem to be confusing me with some archetype from your past. I have nothing in common with them. It’s fine with me whenever people think. Whether they want to or not. It disturbs me when people speak on behalf of the group, and only represent the margins. Though I’m used to it.
Dear Hakatan,
Chabad shechita is almost always done in conjunction with other Jews.
The mass brainwash is self imposed. We only know about it because we can trace the trends online. If you weren’t brain washed, you would realize it yourself.
The fallacy is in being selective based on frivolous matters. If the parents are picky on their kids’ friend’s houses, that’s fine as long as it has a rhyme and reason that will not come off as shallow to the kids. Instead of getting involved in detailed investigations, some folks will put in a hard and fast rule. Which works until it is challenged. If the parents really do not care, that also works.
Why does it bother you so much that people think differently? It’s not any worse than believing in flat earth or spaghetti monsters.
Ipcha mistavra. If you would not be so into recreating the shtetl, you would know the history. The shtetl stirred up a lot of agnostic attitudes toward the Torah. Which is why irreligious sefardim (In the mid-east) did not have such attitudes until they met their western counterparts.
Dear Avira?
I think your idea is warped. Whatever. Which home would you send your kids to? It’s already night. In one house the parents are davening mincha. In the other, they finished maariv and are drinking and smoking.
I hate it. The yeshiva can allow boys to collect, but not to work. When the boy stops learning fulltime – be it 15 or 50, what do you think crosses his mind first?
Dear Stuart,
Religion requires a lot of money. There has been a communal pot since we received the luchos. Your ideal scenario was never intended or attempted.
To me, derch eretz means the way humans make something out of their time on earth. Standard obligations, rights, intellect, common law, society, arts, culture, as in all that humanity encompasses. Obviously, we are referring to acceptable derech eretz that is constructive. (Otherwise it is not a derech. It will not go anywhere because it self destructs.)
I’m confused. If we go with the idea of conquering land as acquiring it, the Jews conquered the land in ’48.
Dear Avram,
It is not misleading in this context.
Dear Syag,
On this thread, your post applies to Avira.
Besides the money, there is the empowerment of holding the aggressor accountable.
The mitzva of teshuva is at all times. If it would be a mitzva only when appropriate, women would be exempt………
Dear Always,
Or it may be that there is many sources available to quote, that many great seforim are rarely if ever quoted. Besides, the Bostoner Rav is not easy to quote from his seforim. His main mussar ideas are very lengthy. And his shiurim were amazing as to his clarity. A rebbe who lacks his powers of understanding, will not be teaching much by quoting him. His letters (The black sefer.) are really good. They should be quoted more. As it is probably his most popular sefer among the lamdanim.
Rav Kook’s seforim are a completely different story. His style is more artistic than explanatory. And most of his writings are not on yeshivishe topics. In a way he can be used more. The closest comparison I can think of, would be Reb Tzaddok. (I mean in how his seforim can be utilized. The differences are obvious.)
Harm and halacha do not line up well at all. It permits to smoke and drink. Davening mincha after nightfall is not permitted. Which house is safer for kids?
It is surprising to me that so many people struggle with this. Cults and religions work on the same wave length, but I’m opposite directions. The wave length in this instance, is self awareness. The cult equates awareness of the self with awareness of the cult. Whereas religion promotes awareness of the individual separate from awareness of the religion.
The difference plays out when the individual is required to make their own choices. A cult member will think how does my choice reflect on the cult. A religious person thinks how do my actions reflect on me.
It has nothing to do with true origins or group think. The truth can be used as a tool to negate self awareness. And group think can be harnessed to promote individual choice.
1. Rav Chaim Kanievsky
2. Horeb
What makes something an Ikkar, is not How basic of fundamental it is to believe in it. An Ikkar is a concept that is vital to a proper theological structure of Torah. Which is fully dependant on whatever starting point the composer chooses. A self understood system of Jewish studies? Rambam. Where we differ with popular medieval thought? Crescas. Logical deduction? Abarbanel.
This is why we do not find a mention of The Ikkarim in the classical sefarim. Even Rashi never mentions them. He had no need for it.
The yidishkeit in many a shtetl was incomplete. At best.
Anshuldig.
Here is a youthful misconception: “Hashkafah must be in harmony both in yeshiva and at home.” Hashkafah is how we integrate the dichotomy between our Torah lives and everything else that surrounds us. Those who surround themselves with only Torah have no need for hashkafah. And some people are not bothered by such dichotomies. They fulfill their duties regardless of any inconsistencies. And they are much better off.
Dear Avira,
Your stomping on your toe so hard, it is painful to watch.
I asked a friend who work in a Lakewood seforim store. He did not recall the author that I was talking about. But if said that Rav Dovid Weinberger’s Song of Teshuvah is a good seller.
Rav Aaron referred to Rav Soloveitchik as the Bostoner Rav. And if definitely did not consider him an apikorus. Rav Aaron’s closest talmidim had a guarded appreciation of the Bostoner Rav.
Dear Ujm,
Thanks, that was a lot of work! I really should go through It slowly when I have more time. For purely historical purposes, does the S”R mention Rav Kook after the war?
I’m not claiming that Lakewood or any yeshiva endorses Rav Kook. Just that his Torah is more prevalent than it used to be. It used to be nil. The yeshiva is not as insulated as it used to be. Partly because there has been so much success, that there are much more types incorporated in to the present day yeshivos. And the Rosh Yeshiva has less of a totalitarian grip on his yeshiva.
There was a sefer from Rav Kook put out this past Elul. It had a perush and was advertised in Lakewood shuls. I’ll track down the author for you. There is no Rav Kook propaganda arm in America. The only people pushing his ideas, are those that picked them up first hand from his writings. Which further proves my point.
But either way- your quibbling around the point. The yeshiva is much more open to outside seforim than it ever was. And unfortunately it is losing familiarity with some of it’s own core Sefarim.
There are three different discussions about ties two luminaries. 1) The views they had that are not accepted in many yeshivos. 2) their Seforim on all areas of Torah. 3) How personal attacks over topic 1, prevent the study of 2.
If you are trying to get the yeshiva minded to change their opinion on 1, you are wasting your time.
If you are justifying the existence of 3 you are wrong.
I suggest we switch the topic to focus more on 2: the other Seforim they wrote. How popular they are and aren’t and why.
As far as I can tell from my nomadic yeshiva existence, whey are increasing in popularity. Especially Rav Kook’s Seforim. Growing up in the yeshiva I did not know he had any. Now the new publications are available and advertised all over. Including yeshivaleit that wrote perushim on his Seforim.
The Litvish Rosh Yeshivos talk less about their peers than the Rebbes do. But to be honest, Rav Elchonon did talk about Rav Kook, he wrote. And I’m unsure if the Satmar Rav ever mentioned him.
Mods, My bad. I misread him. My apologies.
Not sure I understand what you are referencing
Dear Avira,
For someone who claims to be all in the Yeshiva world, I must tell you that if you would say such things in many a Rosh Yeshiva’s house you would be permanently disinvited. learning Torah has far more value to them than anything else in the world. How bloggable a Gadol’s opinion’s are, means nothing to them. Maybe MO will be willing to take you back….
Dear Ujm,
But I do fault those who fail to mention the backlash that those sainted individuals got from their peers.
I think we are misjudging what it means to judge.
My point was that if you feel it, you have the feeling regardless of the Torah about such feelings.
Now that you elaborated your thoughts, I would respond that the separate concepts of intelligence, knowledge, intuition, and prophecy, often merge. If you would have such feelings on whatever topic you want including matters that are far into the future, I would think of you as quite the prophet.
It is not the Tefillin that has Shakkai. It is our wearing the Tefillin that produces this Name. We put on Tefillin to achieve this mental state. And we keep it ingrained in our psyche when we remove it. I think that answers all your questions.
It depends which chart you are using. Some charts first Alos can be after astronomical dawn.
It’s a feeling. On what point are you looking for a Torah explanation?
Rav Helel’s statement that “there is not anymore mosiach for Yisrael that it already was used in the days of Chizzkeyahu”, is not relevant to his understanding of The Ikkarim. Clearly, he was not in doubt or denying. It is a statement of clarity, in that idea of no Moshiach can be demonstrated by the Navi’s portrayal of Chizzkeyahu. The statement is only related to how to contextualize and properly understand the prophecies of Yeshaya etc. But when it comes to his conviction about our imminent redemption, that was never in question. [If it was the question, it would be a lack of Torah knowledge. Not a lack of Jewish belief.]
“….overwhelming significance to the principle.” If I’m correct in my above post, then the significance is to what the Ikkar is. As opposed to why such a belief is significant. Because belief is not by itself the purpose of the Ikkarim. The goal is to properly understand Torah. So the question becomes, if someone C”V denies the possibility of Moshiach’s imminent arrival, what are they missing out on?
“It stands to reason that in order to be an ikar hadas that disbelieving it is tantamount to heresy, there must be an overwhelming significance to the principle.”
This seemingly obvious axiom is what brings about the confusion that follows.
” It stands to reason..” – I would like to humbly suggest that these discussions while being bound to reason, are not founded upon reason. It is only founded on what is known and demonstrated to be true. Since it is easily established that the full truth is both unknown to us and unknowable by it’s very existence, we then allow ourselves to expand it by other knowledgeable means. (Whether that is by tradition, logic, the senses, or even guesswork, is not consequential at this early point.)
(*The OP assumes that The Ikkarim are individual ikari hadas. But this seems to be debatable in the course of the thread. I’m not sure if it matters to the follow up points in the OP.)
“…disbelieving…” This needs a clear citation. We are not Jews because of any basic beliefs or founding statement. We are Jews because of our commitment to act our lives as commanded to us by The Torah. Having erroneous beliefs will cripple a basic understanding of Torah. It will not hinder a Jew from fulfilling our common duties.
I’m not advocating C”V for any negation, of what we know and believe as true. My only question is that are we correct to equate our Ikkarim with other systems (even reasonable ones) that demand an obedience to statute with no meaningful application. Just because one does not know/understand/internalize/concur to all The Ikkarim, Jews do not call that heresey. Or at least, it does not equate to one fully concurs with all the Ikkarim, yet serves idols or invents his own religious practices.
An unlocked door in a semi public place would be a sufficient deterrent, so long as there a need for privacy.
Dear Ujm,
Go ahead and ask them. I was just giving you some clarification of what using that statement means to me.
By all means, you can share your own explanations.
Dear Avirah,
It ended in humiliation for both of them. And apparently she had the greater intellect. But never underestimate the machinations of the wicked. It is smarter than both of them.