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Dear Mdd,
A lot has been written about if part or all of Christianity is a”z and to what degree. I was asking what piece of the debate do you assume for yourself. You will get no debate from me, as I do not have any personal opinion on the matter. And I never discussed Christianity with a non-Jew. Since you where bringing it a reference to this topic, I wanted to clarify what your using as a baseline.
Dear Ujm,
By more do you mean in quantity, or the quantified quality? I have no idea how to tally rights versus responsibilities, outside of one on one litigation. So I cannot apply it to marriage. Or even divorce.
Some families have real difficulties counting backwards from thirteen.
The chareidim will take over the secular neighborhoods. Like they do wherever they grow. Are you insinuating that the chareidim in E”Y are growing numerically, but not substantially? Why of all the nerve!!
Why was this unpinned?
To avoid confusion, forget the word communism. Use Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism, or whatever form your promoting. Otherwise, you’ll be confused with the masses that clamor for communism and never read Marx.
All Americans honor Biden and Harris. They are the president and vice president. Americans no longer honor The Articles Of Confederation. They broke down in 1786. We honor The Constitution instead.
This was prophetic.
Dear Mdd,
Why is it so clear to you that Christianity is avodah zara?
Maybe thinking about Divine Emanations is too much for you. It wasn’t too much for the Ari, Shlah, Besht, Gra, Ramchal, and many others.
An atheist denies gods, not existence.
Doing commands because your father commands you, are commands.
The thread is full of points that you had no answer for.
Where do chazal mention that it is our obligation to tear apart Judaism by learning up people’s personal devotions?
Dear Gadol,
I’m shocked that you would limit what the Great Chofetz Chaim could have foreseen.
Dear Avirah,
Why can’t an atheist believe in the mitzvos? One can have beliefs and still not claim to have all the answers. Is that last sentence the center of our dispute? An atheist will think of the commander as a fact. Not a being. It could be the same source as the commander of the laws of nature.
Dear Mods,
Why can’t I edit today? Post #2083733 starts It’s the.. I meant to write It’s not the….. Can you fix it for me? Thanks!
I like the tag on this thread!
Dear Avira,
The six mitzvos is a different discussion. One that fails every time we try on these welcoming pages. It’s a lifelong goal. And the sad fact is that most yidden come nowhere close. That is the first premise of the chovas halevavos. The miselas yisharim States that true yirah evades most of the people because they do not know what it is.
Dear Smerel,
It’s not the leaders of chabad’s obligation to make sure that everything is understood properly. Instead of trying to glean the truth from lectures that are not being aimed at you, go talk to the people in question. After an enjoyable two hour shmooze on the topic, not one chabadsker will say anything like the Rebbe has replaced God.
The more difficult dilemma for younger chabadskers, especially the ones my age that never had the living Rebbe, is who filled this role before him, and before chabad came around. But in truth, every Jewish group struggles with this to some extent.
Dear Avram,
I’m not advocating this as the ikar. I’m saying this is the basic idea. As in what a person who did not find his purpose in life, but is still interested in remaining a Jew.
Many terms can be used for Jews. Shomrei mitzvos is a common term. Balei nefesh is a really high level.
I doubt anyone’s commitment comes only from their awareness of Hashem. Bilam had a strong awareness of Hashem and moving else. So he was only absorbed in himself.
A committed Jew is one that maintains his Judaism as his own identity. I think your examples will also qualify as ‘a good Jew’. Your underselling just how many obligations the Torah puts on us.
The person with the personal beliefs that you outlined is rather stupid. That he still maintains all the mitzvos, is very special in the eyes of Hashem. What do you expect of such a person?
On your last paragraph, it depends what level you mean. A Jew with little insight into the divine, is limited in their spiritual growth. This is so obvious, it is almost redundant. But the basic level is there for him. A fully practicing atheist can say kiddush and kaddish for us. One is yotzei all the mitzvos that are designed for our awareness even if he is unaware of what they mean. Teffillin. Succah. Shabbos. Yom Tov. Tzitzis. Matzo. Marror. Etc.
The six constant mitzvos is a long topic. And I’m not changing anything. It’s the same idea for the gaddol hador as it is for the simpleton. The outcome is different. But the output is universal.
I posted that piece to clarify why all of chabad is within the parameters of normative Judaism, as much as any other group. It was never intended as the ideal.
Dear Ujm,
Nah. There is plenty of time until davening starts. Though in truth one is not allowed to go to sleep after alos if they will not wake up for minyan.
Post #2083529 The bold font went until the end of the post.
You forgot the / before the word strong in the end.
Did I put all that in bold? It was supposed to be two lines.
???
Dear Moishe,
If you do it on your employer’s dime.
Dear Avira,
I’m not talking about the ultimate level of Yiddishkeit. This discussion is about the minimum line. What makes it be (exist) even in it’s non utopian form. The level of what is within the fold is not on par with the ultimate Jew. For me to grow, i have to keep raising the bar. But that has nothing to do with my perception of my fellow yidden.
“chovos halevavos”
The author is clearly pointing out how the masses are not fulfilling their potential. He does not say that they are below the standards of Judaism.
“Leibowitz”
I’m not familiar. Those were my own words.
“Fear of communal reprisal”
Nope. Identifying as a Jew. And realizing that that comes with specific duties.
“Kaplan”
There are many different portrayals of him. I do not have a good idea of what he thought, or was like. (Or practiced.)
“Hirsch”
I’m aware of the debate. But I do not recall that he invoked a cherem. On his polemic against Frankel, he repeatedly writes that if it was just a matter of personal understanding than he would not have spoken out. His protest was that he was teaching these theories to his students.
“Exhortation after exhortation”
I’m aware of the six constant mitzvos. That they are constantly required of every Yid, is a long discussion. I’m in sync with every word of said discussion. But fulfilling the six mitzvos constantly, is The Ultimate Jew. We are examining The Borderline Jew.
“Reform”
Your missing a good chunk of it. And they never developed any way that faith can be measured. In other words, they could not come up with any commitment. Which is why the Eighteenth Century choice can be summed up as Reform versus commitment.
“Conservative”
Nice definition!
“Reconstructionism”
I do not know what it’s about. Still, I do not think your correct.
“Orthodox”
Was coined as a term for those that would not waver in their commitment or practice. If you term based on a theological purpose, you’ll be constantly throwing people out of Orthodoxy. If one authority would gain control of Orthodox Belief’s for a thousand years, than all the Jews would be thrown out and cone to be considered unorthodox.
“Acharai Levavchem”
Six mitzvos. See above.
“Tefilah”
The concept of Avodah always requires more than just mere participation. It requires real devotion. Otherwise, it’s not (an) Avodah. This is not a concept of Torah or Judaism. It is simply what Tefilah intrinsically is.
“Tachas asher lo avadatah”
This is the tochachah. It goes on the community at large. Even though there is such people that fit into the description of Simple Jew or Basic Jew, we are still expected to get closer to the ultimate as a whole community.
“War”
Just being faithful to the Torah does not win us miraculous wars. If it did, every Jewish battle would be the Six-Day War. We have to really be on the level, to blow the shofar and have the walls fall down. That is how Achan’s transgressions derailed an entire campaign.
“Mitzvos trichos kavanah”
Is not relevant here. The thought content of our actions have nothing to do with axioms.
“Known idol worshipper, because he believes”
Nothing to with what I posted, but just because one actively worships idols it does not mean we know his beliefs.
“Belief in mitzvos”
My entire post was belief in mitzvos! How did you miss that?!?
“….no such thing as a mitzvah without a mitzaveh.”
Exactly my point. But knowing what it means to belief in a creator, or what is a permissible explanation of atzmus haguf, is irrelevant to mitzvah performance.
“Above all…”
Sorry, but I’m not placing your quote. But the verse of ‘And you should live by them’ refers to all the different levels of life. Including those who practice just to receive reward. i e Those who are not regarding Hashem as part of their purpose.
“Mesillas Yesharim”
That is how we complete our purpose. Not what makes us tolerable.
“Therapist”
I was never a patient by any mental health professional.
“Problems with emunah”
I never struggled with emunah.
“Normal Avodas Hashem”
No idea why you put the word normal in there. But we agree that what I detailed my post, should not be confused with Avodas Hashem.
This has been quite a debate! I really advocate coming to peace with the fact the Yeshiva is on a higher Torah locale, than the majority of Jews. Denigrating the level of the Jews outside the Yeshiva, is one of the few things that can wither the Spirit of the Yeshivos.
Dear Redleg,
Send my best regards!
Dear Avram,
God fearing key is not so accurate. Fear of God takes a Jo’s of goods work for most of us. I mean continued to keeping the mitzvtos (within the Jewish community).
The idea necessary for mitzvos is a mitzaveh -commander. Not boray – creator. You have a big swing there between a mitzvah for it’s own sake and a good luck charm. There is a lot in between.
Dear Avram,
Your really out on a limb with that. Nice vort! And?
When I get old, I’m going to think that I’m right.
Dear Avira,
That’s a long one! I’ll get to it tomorrow. But you really do not know me. So try to explain yourself! And then maybe we’ll get somewhere.
Dear Common,
Sorry I did not see you question. The first Vorka and the Berditchever. Not in a defied way – in a sainted way. This is not unique to chassidus. There were some by the Stolin split that chose to remain with the dead one until things sorted out. Old Lelov and early Chabad had such a side as well. Then there was the son who gave his dead father an aliya.
Dear Mdd,
Christians make up a vast amount of groups. All the theology for dummies that they practice makes for a almost pagan like deity. Some groups are monotheistic. But if you want to know their beliefs, you have to only look at their theologists and philosophers. Which you are refusing to do with chabad. And, I do not care what the Christians think either.
Dear Ujm,
All I’m suggesting is not allowing oil futures to be traded publicly. Please run that by an economist first. At this point I wouldn’t want to be responsible for crashing the dollar. Or maybe the mods would ask an economist before they allow this post through.
Josephus details cult like groups that were based on true beliefs.
Dear Ready,
Why do you say that Judaism is not a cult? And where do you see in the Torah the definition of a cult?
Dear Avira,
On yidishkeit. When a Yid does a mitzvah because he is a comitted Jew, that is the desired outcome of creation. This is even if the Jew has no concept of a creator or any idea of the god-head. Just the act itself, is included in ‘boruch asher yakum es divrei hatorah hazos’. Now, how can this be if the practitioner has no devotion to Hashem or his Torah?
The answer is exceptionally unique in the annals of mankind. Hashem gave the Torah to us! It really, actually happened. And now that it is here, it is the individual possession of every single yid and all of Yisroel’s collective possession simultaneously. So even when a mitzvos are done with no connection to Hashem, is is still Torah by the mere connection of being Jewish. Because even though the intentions and devotions are almost nil, it is unaltered Torah in that the practice itself is representative of what the Torah wants from us.
A look at the taryag will easily demonstrate that Hashem gave us the Torah for us to enact it by living it. Not much in the way of how we should devote ourselves or what our intentions should be. There are many ways to approach God. But there is only one mission to carry out on His behalf. All the sugyos that we learn, are filled with the smallest details of proper actions. There is no sugya of proper beliefs.
Even the most far out atheist, can be a committed Jew. Rav Hirsch said as much regarding Spinoza. And the Chofetz Chaim have avowed atheists mussar about keeping mitzvos. His sefarim are filled with admonishments about mitzvos that people ignore. But when it comes to belief, he just writes that the common belief is not at all the way the Torah views it.
Dear Avira,
If you did not find there ideas in a not insignificant quotient, than you were not learning Tanya. Or maybe you had an agenda. Or sadly, you may be resistant to gaining new insight.
For the record I hate watching football, am a total party pooper, and have never been to a super bowl party. I’m sorry that your jealous. You can go instead of me. You’ll still be yeshivish.
Dear It,
The anti abortion crowd is no more for our Creator than the pro abortion crowd. Hashem owns the truth. He does not need you to lie for him.
Is your issue with the poster, or the topic? I assumed the latter. These topics are clouding my senses.
Dear Syag,
Of course a line could be drawn separating chabad’s practices from everyone else. But that does not prove a thing. Is a repeating line the actual line that separates the permissible than the forbidden? If someone responds “Absolutely!”, that seems awfully convenient to me. And if it’s not the separating line, than why does anyone care how they pray? What’s in their heads when they say these things, is their business. I’m surprised by your stance here.
I have a friend that does these rackets. I can’t guarantee that he davens an hour per year.
Honestly, I’m not really aware what this thread is about. Maybe it’s just some people looking for an excuse to party. So what?
The idea is to get people to condone frum fraud. How do you combat these people?
If you actually learn the Rambam as much as you quote it, you would know that it is not applicable to this issue.
No it is not new. It can be compared to the yeshivish fressing away for a yom tov.
I agree that some things we just have to accept. Whether out of convenience or blindness. But I’m not sure what concept I should accept. This is just defining terms. I would rather admit that Judaism is a cult, than lie about it. And if I do not know, I don’t know.
It means stam yaynam.
Dear Avira,
That post was not referring to any of the standard liturgy. If you go back in history, you’ll find a lot of really bizarre devotions. People think that they go to Meron to beg Reb Shimon for various requests. I’m not promoting any of this. Or even conceding that it is permitted. I’m just proving that it’s not only Chabad and it’s not knew.
About the sichos. I thought you were stating that I’m obligated to get it out of my house. My apologies. I do not really care about whether is a sefer what is not. I’ve read worse.
Inviting a god has nothing to do with a cult.
I know I’m years late [this thread predates my first post.] but is this permanent?
The word is Beis HaBamos. Which lends itself to what I posted. No idea how it would help your dogma.