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“Is frowned upon”
Debatable.
It’s still only a theory until it’s corroborated.
What about all the boys that are not learning? The drop outs sit around and don’t date. Nobody has any ideas of how boys should marry as they are starting college.
Getting married at eighteen is not recommend for learning boys today. If you just hate the idea of yeshiva bachrim sitting and learning, there is no justification of protesting because girls not having married.Torah is more important.
And again. Your theory is not at all a given. It’s been peddled for at least twenty years with no proof.
I have not been Reb Elya Ber since before Covid. It is harder to get a hold me him. But I’ve heard from him on this matter. He foods not claim to have checked out any numbers. And he has a different reason for changing the set-up.
The theory makes sense. That does not make it true. It is obvious that you never bothered to check it out.
“Adding something after davening is very controversial”
Get real. There have been dozens of additions and almost none of them stick. Because the people won’t stick around an extra minute.
You saw it in one shul. What was it like? Standing at attention? Singing? Mumbling?
What did your Rebbe do?
Dear Yochy,
That theory is totally made up. If you used Google to try and back it up, the most scholarly work you’ll find is these pages. Nobody ever bothered demonstrating that threre is any correlation between the age gap and older singles. Were expected to just take your word for it because you bothered to come up with a theory. If that’s the way it works, just tell us your theories on racism, asteroids, the pandemic, politics, divorce, and Chabad. Just shut down the coffee room and give you a loudspeaker.
Dear Avira,
Have you seen it yourself or not? Even if it is as you say, it is still not a break with our tradition. It is controversial only because of it’s implications. Just adding after davening is not controversial.
Dear Mods,
Can you please edit for me post #2087487? The second sentence should read, “I’ve ONLY heard OF it.”
Thanks.
I’m not around sefarim these days. I’ll get to it online.
Your right that the level of antagonism toward chassidus cooled off a lot after a hundred years. I was nitpicking. What you are thinking with the Amshinover, was personal to his activities and not opposition to his following and so on. I was talking about in Europe. Later eighteen hundreds.
Correct me if I’m confusing times and people, I recall that the Yismacha Moshe started out as a fierce misnagid.
I’m not so sure that the opposition really calmed. As much as there was too much crossover. And there was nothing to be gained by fighting. Also, there were more important fights for the last two hundred years. Along with too much infighting.
Dear Avira,
There was always tension with Chabad. They always lived among misnagdim.
The Chofetz Chaim did not say specific names. People amended what he said.
Define hardcore hisnagdus. How about the Yismach Moshe? There was a lot of opposition to Vorka/Amshinov.
P. S. Your not so correct about the Rogochover. Rationalist is not the correct term. The Rambam is more systemized thinking than the other Rishonim.
And now for the uncommon jobs that have frum yidden in Lakewood.
Firefighters.
City bus driver.
Garbage truck driver.
Farmer.
Security guard.
Ventriloquist.Dear Common,
You missed a bunch of everyday jobs in Lakewood. Maybe you could also venture out more
Drivers.
Sales.
Medical billing.
Shaimos.
Mohel.
Sefarim.
Construction.“I know shuls.”
Have you seen it? I’ve only heard of it. Even from Chabadskers trying to defend Chabad. But I’ve only seen a mumbled chirping like half-song. Less than Barchu after maaariv in Bobov. I’ve seen pit said privately immediately after shmoneh esrei. Etc. Same goes for na nach. I would not (yet) consider it part of their liturgy. Either way, it does not compare to others that changed the way the lein, chazaras hashatz, and took out and added at will.
I said my attitudes are not concerning. [Alert: Possible Bias] I post in a dry manner. I see no reason in forcing my feelings on others. My experiences, opinions, and theories, are complicated enough.
Even those who publicly detest Judaism. may still have a burning inner passion for certain mitzvos.
Dear Syag,
[I find that attitudes and spiritual well being do not correlate. I’ve seen boys who do not keep shabbos, wear tzitzis through thick and thin. I’ve seen all kinds of wayward Yidden davening for hours. I know of major kollel donors that do not believe in the power of learning Torah. And I have met many, many Yidden that are both cynical and committed.]
I’m not sensitive to criticisms on my values. Don’t leave me guessing. Just be blunt.
Dear Syag,
I prefer to leave my personal devotion to my religion off the internet. It just seems fake to me, when people publish how frum they are.
Also, I have no problem being around the irreligious. Or the ultra-religious. My own attitudes to religion, should not concern anyone. Including yourself.
All in all, I’m sorry you feel like you had to say something.
Dear Syag,
“Defense is weak.”
How so? We’re in the process of finding out just how weak my thinking is.
“that something isn’t true”
Typo? Because I think it is true. I also think I could be wrong.
“if he thinks it’s wrong”
I would like to know why he thinks that way.
“it’s not quite so simple”
It’s not simple at all.
“because they are different”
Yes. But cutting out the vibes may lead to a clearer conversation.
” If there wasn’t legitimacy on at least some level it would not hold up thru so many leaders consistently thru so many years.”
I’m confused what you are referring to with this sentence.
” You are just being simplistic and nonchalant because you find that comfortable and have already painted the rest of the religious world to be overdramatic,”
I’m being too simplistic. Agreed. It works. First let’s find out how deep we disagree. There is always time for apologetics later.
Nonchalant? I thought I was getting too heated. I deleted some posts instead of submitting them.
I’m comfortable with thinking things through. I do not use my brain cells for matters of appearance or populism.
The world – not just the religious world is overdramatic to me. That’s okay. I don’t have the drive to run the whole world.Dear Syag,
I’ve never seen yechi, as part of the communal service. I’ve only seen it randomly. What have you seen?
Dear Avram,
On your main objection…………… First of all, the six constant mitzvos require thinking, so to my chiddush it’s a separate discussion. This is not to negate the point. On the contrary, it is the most obvious query. Just that it is a lengthy topic in it’s own right. Even with out my little ideas, it requires it’s own exposition on they are properly attained. For now, let’s continue on the other 607 mitzvos only. Second of all, I put myself in a theological bind. In order to put my defining point into focus, I pushed it beyond any reasonable parameters. Of course any sane human has to be thinking something to be observant. However, that may speak more to our humanness, than to spirituality. After all, do malachim ‘think’ when they observe His will?
My main point is this. Every Born-Observant Jew, starts of practicing before they understand any Torah system. Some may be aware that such a system exists, but what the system consists of – (as a first axiom I’ll use…) Serving Him by doing His Will (but there are deeper understandings that could, and should be used) – is elusive. This application of Judaism is available to all. Some people never get that there is a specific purpose to Torah. And they have a mush where others have a sense of purpose. Yet they are not one bit doubted as Yidden. If they preach their lack of knowledge, the proper response is ‘you need to learn more’ or something similar. But if they change their practice because it is all mush anyways, then they begin to lose their bona fides. if this is true, then it follows that observance can be achieved without any real idea of the Godhead.
Some people just do not get the nuance of grasping the Divine. I contend that some people are not just uncomfortable talking about Hashem, they really do not understand what the whole conversation is about. There is a lot more I can say about this personality trait, but it would get even more of topic. On one point I give a full concession. To keep the mitzvos on even the basic level, one has to fully accept all the mitzvos. Now, the query of the six constant mitzvos becomes unavoidable.
Dear Avram,
““SHOULD WE TELL CHABAD THAT THEIR TEACHINGS MUST BE WRONG, BECAUSE OUTSIDE OF CHABAD THEY DO NOT PREACH THE SAME? CHABAD IS WRONG BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE IS CHABAD?”
Not sure I like how you worded it (particularly the wrong because nobody else is line), but in essence, yes.”
Okay. This the foggy part. Do you have a way to say that Chabad is wrong from within Chabad’s own teachings? yes or no.
Dear Avira,
I realized that. But I’ve only seen yechi used roughly the same as na nach.
Thanks!
Dear Syag,
I’m not defensive about this topic. But my arguments where not designed to hold up in debate. Just how I see it.
Dear Avram,
“…you have embraced spiritual stagnation?”
No! I’m not Chabad at all. The way Chabad works, is that all fields of inquiry are open. Except for why Chabad is Chabad. Why Chabad does not have a track with zero kabalistic teachings, is a good question that will not get a good answer. For comparison; why Lakewood does not have a Mesivta for smart boys that will not be long-term learners, is also a good question that will not get an answer. Some things just are a certain way. These things only change as part of a large-scale shift.
Dear Syag,
I’m not posting anything that I haven’t thought of on my own. I grappled a lot with Chabad. There was none of it around me growing up. And I’ve been in areas for long stretches were they were the only (Frum) Jews.
Dear Avram,
Beliefs do matter -I think we agree on this part, that strength of faith and piety, is a very strong determination of one’s religiosity. I’m using the ‘beliefs are irrelevant’ line, for the opposite extreme. When determining what is within the ‘norms’ of Frum Yidden, I think it is about observance. As beliefs alone does not make a Yid. So long as all the practice is being practiced, there is room for more extreme thought systems. Although these systems may eventually convince them to stop practicing, the ideas themselves to not put them outside the ‘norms’. (And I would preemptively note, that observance is very strong in Chabad. Particularly, Chabad Yeshivos.) For example; davening to the Rebbe keeps being mentioned. Whatever it is or isn’t, they have not changed the standard liturgy. They still daven the same tefillos as the rest of us. Whereas Conservative, as well as some far left Orthodox, have reimagined the service to reflect their innovations.
Dear Avram,
“So why can’t questions be asked and answers given, without hostility and hatred?”
I’m not sure if this is aimed at me or the topic. Either way, I do not understand how this fits with the rest of your post. To answer: I have no idea. I’m not against anybody here. If you need a theory, there seems to be an elitist bent. With Chabad claiming a higher understanding of God’s world. And the Yeshivish (? is this accurate ?) anti Chabad claiming to know how and why Chabad is out of the Pale. But of course, there is a respectable way to ask. Just don’t ask me for advice. I’m not a model of respect. I’m working on it..
Dear Avira,
You don’t hear it in other places because you do not think of it the same way. But by Chabad you take these expression way too literally.
Mall owner.
Plenty of people live in caves. What’s the big deal?
Dear Ploni,
In the comments to the Welcome to Daf Tube video, he links his Facebook page.
Dear Always,
Maybe it’s not such a good idea because that “proof” about thebiur has been utterly debunked.
Parole officer.
Donkey driver.
Dear Er,
This is not a Torah issue. Here in the great US of A, the national religion is only when we are off of work. As the great god ‘football’ has went to the higher realms, Americans turn to the realm of abortion to divine their own fate. However, it is a fierce debate if legal abortions facilitate the powers of football or not. Thus their is a civil debate/spiritual war if legal abortion are good or bad. Illegal abortions, or abortions that are beyond the reach of the law, do not harm the spirit of football at all. Unless the fetus would have been the next great quarterback. The highest spiritual act is to participate in an anti abortion advertisement during the super bowl. Unfortunately too many Jews are interested in worshipping football.
“One of the reasons that the whole city of shchem was killed was because they didn’t bring shchem to din”
Outlaw abortion all you want, but I take issue with this reading of the Rambam.
Your halachic position should (almost) never dictate your political position. You’ll end up using your politics to influence halacha.
Also, Rav Avigdor Miller is not Rav Moshe Feinstein. Rav Moshe is not Rav Yitzchok Breitowitz. It feels good to type some pure facts.
Dear Avira,
Your post, (#2085843) contained some beautiful morals. That is your own thinking. It doesn’t explain why anyone should follow your example. Other people morally disagree.
The site is not objective. And it ignores the main discussion. It intends to talk for Chabad. Not about Chabad as it claims.
Dear Avram,
I’ve read your long post (#2083987) numerous times, and I’m not convinced that I can place your debate. My position did not change. As long as observance is a given, it is of little consequence to the Torah way of life what theories are prominent in a given group. I suspect that if we compare groups we will find that the best of each are both similar and few in number. What’s your argument? Should we tell Chabad that their teachings must be wrong, because outside of Chabad they do not preach the same? Chabad is wrong because nobody else is Chabad? Maybe the hostility is mutual and therefore artificial. The Baal Hatanya’s opponents put him in jail. Nobody has apologized yet, so maybe all the spite is justified. You compare Chabad to Early Christianity. Nobody knows what Christianity was like in it’s early days.
“But to lay out my question simply: if beliefs do matter for your level, and a group claims to offer the highest level… should their claims not be checked into on behalf of those who want to climb higher?”
I hear the question. But it’s not for me to answer. Chabad’s problem. Every group is leaving out something.
“”“I DOUBT ANYONE’S COMMITMENT COMES ONLY FROM THEIR AWARENESS OF HASHEM. BILAM HAD A STRONG AWARENESS OF HASHEM AND NOTHING ELSE. SO HE WAS ONLY ABSORBED IN HIMSELF.”
I didn’t say that awareness alone was sufficient. We have mitzvos to love and fear Hashem, and a cursory reading of Chumash reveals the importance of faith in Hashem.”
So we agree on this.
Dear Ready,
Studying other religions may be a waste, but it is at times permitted. And nobody said they are studying other religions. They were mentioning what the seforim said about Christianity.
Please source your claim ‘that cults are banned’. Your last attempt was a distortion.
How could you make such broad statements about cults without lying or having studyied them? Make up your own mind first.
What’s the top offer now?
Do I need to have any pre-qualifications?
Do you have a negotiable price, or whoever gives the highest offer?
Is it well lit at night?
Dear Gadol,
Now, Why would make believe that we all agree Moshiach is not a woman?
If your camp identifies with the Torah, what is so unique about Zionism that no Torah applies to them? As in you deal with this one issue so different than every other threat to Torah.
My issue is your cheapening of Jewish Blood. Can you cite the one peaceful decade for Russian Jews in two centuries under the Romanov Czars? One hundred fifty years of inquisition is not a constant? The yidden in Yemen never had equality, at any point that they excelled they were immediately harassed into poverty by the locals. A wretched existence for centuries. How about the German States? Jewish town after Jewish homestead that completely disappeared from massacres and poverty. A three, four, or five hundred year struggle to survive often ending with zero survivors. Not even a graveyard as a monument.
The first millennia after the churban was a testimonial to the wits every Jew. To the East, there was constant revolution and palace intrigue, on top of vicious ideological ‘holy’ wars, to the extent that smaller Jewish communities took on gentle identities. Egypt ended a centuries long tolerance of yidden by killing them all. To the West, Jews were so persecuted – as was required by law – that it is hard to find historical references to them. This went on all over the globe, except where the Jews had self rule and the means to deter their neighbors. Borders were shifting on all continents. And Jews were always in the wrong place.
This went on until the Moslem conquest. Jews than had their own semi-states all around the Mediterranean. This created a buffer against constant oppression. But on the Arabian Peninsula, almost all the Jews were wiped out in the Muslim Conquest. The same pattern happened in Northern Europe. Mass murder spurred the sovereignty of the ghetto. But after two bloody centuries, there was no more Jewish England. And France never rebuilt what was. Germany which did grow and even thrive, went over a thousand years of murderous animosity, to less than a hundred years of security.
Poland was an inviting country that fits your definition. Lithuania etc as well as Ukraine could also, if we ignore all the writings from the sixteenth thru the eighteenth centuries, about the constant fear of exile, jail, extortion, bandits, and progroms.
This is without going into the ceaseless awfulness of being caught in middle of the Greek Empires. As well as the Roman atrocities.
Maybe they forgot to tell you what an awful place people make me this planet. See China. Yemen. Sudan. Belarus. Etc. If it makes you feel better, you can quote me as saying that China is really a secret Zionist country.