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Dear Marxist,
You made it very clear. Thanks!
Dear Aseh,
Put Torah hashkafa aside. What concern would you have?
Please elaborate your one Torah point. If we would know of an inhabited planet that has the Torah as it pertains to them, why would that be a difficulty?
Torah perspectives.
I think the Torah prefers that we focus our thoughts on what’s within our realm of activities. [Kifi shitasi. Keyaduah.] I only interleaved, because you said it had to be a certain way. The Torah would also have us not focus on politics, sporting, manners of dress, types of food, and almost every topic discussed on these pages. You and I can socialize over Chabad or Derech Hayeshiva. Others can bend their minds over aliens. In short, the Torah’s perspective on aliens is to find something better to think about.
I think you misunderstood. Nothing to do with heliocentricity. We know assume that Creation was not just the beginning of Earth, but the entirety of the cosmos. [The general thinking used to be reversed.]
There are many more philosophical options. Who cares? And since when do you do philosophy?
In some places it is much cheaper to recycle.
I know commercial buildings that were ticketed for not recycling.
A serious learner should always have what to say. The question is how the rest of us would listen.
Dear Avira,
Just for fun, here is a different argument. It used to be thought that the world was the center of existence. Now it is known that the universe is far more complex and much larger than we could comprehend. Yet, we are undoubtedly very much here and alive. In all this complexity we (humans) are very much alone. Alternatively, within the complexity there exists parallels that are similar to us. Since the purpose of all this complexity is only known to Hashem, He alone knows what the use of alien existence is.
The only dogmatic claim I would make is that if there is intelligent life forms, they would have been bestowed some form of revelation.
Some recycling is very profitable. But if your question is the environment, than the best way is simply to use less. Water, energy, foodstuff, and plastics. Also, remember to always clean up after yourself!
We have to beg Hashem to forgive you for always skipping it.
Dear Always,
Your right that she is not an outsider. But at least initially, she is an outsider to his personal way of appreciating his own Torah. If she has her own perception of a learner, that makes kollel marriage double the work. And for no reason. She will not be a full time learner. Seminary makes sense for the girls that will continue to grow in Torah. But everybody and their uncle discourages new kollel wives from continuing their studies.
The only place I’ve noticed Chabad in Israel, is Tzefas. And then Tzfas is Tzfas. They are all, almost everybody who lives there, on their own trip. You can’t bring anything conclusive from them. [I know that Chabad is all over,Israel but I wasn’t.] What about all the yeshiva guys that moved to Tzfas. Does the Rosh Yeshiva have to denounce them?
Dear Choosid,
Not at all! The point of learning is for the Torah itself. To be attached to the Torah. As it alone is the only reality.
Dear Avira,
Your asking for a crash course on all the Chabad politics. The fact that there is a struggle to get a hold of the microphone, points to the vocal minority. Not to what is the prevailing opinion.
But not approach.
Dear Yabia,
Almost every long term learner will ace all your questions. Iyour simply incorrect. You have to raise the bar significantly to maintain your point.
Dear Always,
That’s a data test. It does not give any indication of how the student approaches the gemara.
Dear Avira,
Just because the existence of aliens would destroy your pretzel-like theology, it does not mean that Hashem can’t do it. Even without the Ikkarim, we know that Hashem can do as He pleases.
I’m not in any yeshiva. When it comes to anybody who wants to stay learning as long as they can, there is a ninety five percent chance that you’ll be wrong. Your setting the bar way too low.
Dear Gefilte,
You want to know how your supposed to know that most of Chabad are not apikorsim? Simply stop speaking for people that you never met. There are thousands of Chabadskers. Also, just because someone is wearing a yechi yarnulke, it doesn’t give you a right to assume what is in their head.
Dear Syag,
‘Nah’ was a response to me. I’m not clear what you think was untrue.
I’m really not understanding. Why does there have to be some statement to the rest of the world? It’s nobodies business what one part of Chabad thinks about the other part.
Dear Ts,
Also, Chabad Yeshivos publish pamphlets of Chiddushei Torah that are only regular Torah. Not even chassidus. That is very telling. I’ve hung around a few such yeshivos. They learn more halachah than Tanya. And they know gemara very well. There is no mishachist in the curriculum. Obviously, the future of Chabad is non mishachist.
Dear Yabia,
Your being way to simple about things. A solid majority of marriage age boys would know this. And among long term learners, almost all of them know the basics. Are you talking about in the tenth grade?
Hatanaim mavlei olam.
Dear Tuna,
This thread is about tzaddikim bmisasam kruyim chaim, not reshaim bchayahem kruim maysim.
Dear Avira,
Wow! You posted some intense minus! I would suggest that the ‘Kan tofso haphilosophem’ gloss, was originally posted on this thread. After it was deleted,it ended up with other glosses on the SA.
Dear Avira,
That is a question for Rav Moshe. There are instances where Rav Moshe had strong opinions, yet specifically stated that others are allowed to disagree. I don’t know how far it goes. But Rav Waldenberg was definitely in the category of the others who disagreed with Rav Moshe. [The four you mentioned is an odd collection.] What is your basis for this idea?
Dear Clear,
Did you think you would change things by starting this thread?
Learning means acquiring new data/classifications/comprehension/concepts/explanations/ideas that we were unaware of before we learned them. If we did not know them originally because our logic was faulty, than I would agree that logic is a prerequisite for learning them. But most of the time it is simply a case of uncovering what slipped through our logical processes. We did not gain more logic we gained more insight. Which was revealed though a more thorough reading or a more objective view.
Learning Torah is not a job. Less than zero comparison.
We do not have a public facing measure because the Torah is not of the public. It wasn’t man-made. So men can’t decide what the grade should be.
Dear Avira,
Please keep in mind that the culture war over abortion has very little to do with ethics. It’s a tool to control the electorate and maintain class separation.
Taanis Mishna 26b Gemara 31a
Online Response Of Chabad.
Extremely uncommon. It does not pay.
Okay. But that’s a little silly as well.
Dear Ujm,
I just can’t understand what the first one is doing that is not bittul torah. He seems to be not yet up to learning gemara. I would agree with you if I could get around this problem. But I would not call either a real learner. Though the first one has a real chance to become one.
Also, the fact that many in Chabad clearly think that the Rebbe is no longer breathing, should impact your conclusion. As well as the fact that most Chabad Yeshivos do not revolve around messianic ideas. All their publications have to count for something as non mishachist messaging.
Dear Syag,
Maybe real Chabad does not care too much about what we think of them. They have their teachings and a comprehensive global mission to go along with it. Our perception of Chabad is not a factor to them. The same way Chabad’s perception of the yeshiva world is not a factor to the yeshiva.
Dear Aries,
It’s been eleven and a half years. Time to eat again.
Dear Always,
Learning Torah is a personal transformative experience. Every talmid chacham evolves differently. Whatever views worked for the seminary teacher and her husband, cannot be assumed to be consistent across all her students. If the husband is being trusted to be learning material, than he must be trusted to live his life accordingly. The concept that there is an outside understanding of what he should be like may get in the way.
Dear Ujm,
I disagree. As the Rambam did. The Lubavitcher Rebbe agreed with your idea.
This thread is missing the point. Chazal and Chabad, speak openly about tzaddikim being alive posthumously. This talk irks the non-Chabad. Whatever Chazal meant, it is not an easy or simple concept. Yet, Chabad asserts it openly. Whether it is properly understood or properly applied is besides the point. It obviously is out there – and it is the source of this thread.
If Chabad has to answer for all of it’s own, so does everybody else. The reality is no group does. For Chabad to be degenerated because they do not answer for a possible misunderstanding or misapplication of Chazal, is highly inconsistent. If it’s not an issue what they are trying to teach (Which some of you are claiming they are getting the wrong ideas.) then they do not have to answer for those in their group who have it wrong. And if they have to answer for the whole group, then the real question is are they teaching it right, and should they be teaching it at all.
To say that they have something wrong and should answer for those in the group that have a heretical understanding of it, is an oxymoron. And then it feels like a baseless accusation.
Dear Syag,
You should know not to make assumptions about thousands of people just because you know dozens.
Dear Always,
The learner has learned the ideas to fulfill himself and his future. When he marries a seminary girl, his ideas are in competition with the perspective she developed in seminary.
Dear Always,
I like the idea of being objective as the goal. Logic does not help one be objective. Compared to other forms of intelligence, it is more subjective. An objective reading requires an unhurried mind. Not one over exerted to logical subtleties. Sevorah in the Talmud does not mean the Logic. A real learner really learns. This somehow became a mystery.
Dear Ujm,
There was no uniformity across Europe at any point. And things changed from generation to generation. At one notorious point, fathers were selling their preteen sons for the highest nadan.
Lakewood Avoider.
Dear Ujm,
For the record: “A learner who spends ten hours a day cracking his head to try and understand less than half an Amud, and after the ten hours only has a very basic idea of what he learnt, ……..”
It’s over the top. I’m not so much arguing the point that follows, as much as I’m arguing the innuendo of the above as a description of a real learner.
As you’ve elaborated your point, I’m still bothered by the same thought. In real life, is learning things you do not understand called learning? The fellow who ‘learns’ gemara but can’t understand Aramaic, is that learning? The fellow who reads Zohar for hours on end and has no idea what the context is, is that nearing? The bachur who reads through Shas, is that learning? The guy who cracks his head for hours, but has no idea what he is looking for, is that learning?