n0mesorah

Dear Avira,

I don’t care what you or anyone think they should believe about Zionism or anything else. Personal business. And this is not a personal conversation. This is an historical discussion.

Rav Kook was not a philosopher. He was not systemic thinker. You posted about ion and philosophy in the past. This is how I knew you had no clue about him. His outlook is in the form of describing historical events. Not explaining the directives. Something like Carlebach teaching through stories. All the nationalistic essays of George Orwell would be incomprehensible to him. He was writing about the nationalistic fever that he was witnessing. I have no idea how you could confuse this. Unless you have no background in philosophy.

He was not the father of anything. He was more detached than Herzl. Almost no following. Wandered around between cities and continents.

“One who…” I meant those who try to understand the depth of his messaging are not Zionistic about the State. Their realistic.

If you need a direct quote, Your messing up your argument. Rav Reinnes is a great example of Torah talking absolute precedence over Zionism. And if was actually part of the Mizrachi Movement. Unlike Rav Kook.

“Beautiful…” Thanks! It would be great to write another hesped on a less controversial gadol.

I wasn’t trying to negate your critique, as much as I was trying to demonstrate that the controversy was about supporting the irreligious. Not what the approach of the Torah True should be to their own tasks. Nobody then was telling boys to leave yeshiva and in work for the betterment of secular society. Unlike today. By the frummest of the frum also.

Rav Shachter was discussing the halachic allowance of the State to fight wars, even though Jews will die. Maybe I have the wrong quote.

Melamed is discussing an issue of statehood. How should they accept the non religious as citizens? You could say they shouldn’t. But then there will be more assimilation in the diaspora.

Dear Smerel,

Your probably wrong. They already tried to impeach him over this. And they did not go so far then.

Also, why would they gather so much evidence and hear over a thousand testimonials, to just go with such a basic premise?

Third, they do not have the authority to press any charges.

You are saying that you already know what will happen and won’t bother finding out for yourself. Why would anyone think that you would believe them if they tell you that your wrong tomorrow?

There is a misunderstanding on this thread. The committee is not going to press box charges. The goal was to gather all the information and preserve it. For legal and historical reference. The success of these hearings depend solely on how impartial it is in it’s presentation. Nobody thinks Pelosi is capable of being impartial. This all rests on the confidence of Cheney. Quite a responsibility for the future of the Constitution.

In all fields of life, mandates have legal and technical implications. Managing compliance is a basic life skill. I’m not sure of the overall question here.

You no nothing about Rav Kook’s understanding of anything. Not how he understood Torah, it’s people, or their destiny.

This is not personal. And it’s not a debate. You just have no clue.

Here is the history. Rav Kook was a giant of giants. Not necessarily the biggest Marbitz Torah, but a man who lived up to every Jewish ideal. He personified every aspect of Torah. Seeing him, was seeing a real yid. The fact of his life led him to reach out ‘ve every segment of Jews. This brought about a lot of bizarre results. He misunderstood a lot of the problems facing the Jews living in Arab lands. His outreach to German Jews missed the target completely. He could not get his message across in America. But these were all minor issues. Basically, the local leaders felt he was unhelpful. It should be noted, that when he was asked to not get involved, he didn’t. Except for one topic. He was right on the mark with the antireligious. He knew what their issues had been in Europe and what really motivated them to invest themselves in Israel. He became the religious leader of the antireligious. Which is the dream of every gadol in kiruv today.

Traditional Jews all over the world were not pleased with this development. They say a struggle for the life of Judaism. Those who personally knew Rav Kook tried to debate with him. He was not that kind of leader. Not a debater. Not a politician. Not a care for his ego. He took all kinds of abuse as if he deserved it. His detractors write, that they would yell at him and he would say “of course your right.” As the new Zionists came in the second wave, he would take the blame for them doing whatever they wanted. Even when they gave him all kinds of guarantees to uphold the yishuv hayashan, he would personally take the blame.

So, nothing happened. The traditional leaders continued in the struggle to uphold their flock. There was nothing they could do. The amount of new oilim was drowning out their clout. Remember, that a large amount of European Jews were no longer Shomer Torah. The struggle was taking over everything. And money sent from Europe and America was crucial for the survival of the people. Yet, the frum leaders in Israel refused to denounce Rav Kook. He was That much of a tzaddik to them. Even though lives were at stake, they carefully worded letters to the diaspora, to only send money through reliable methods.

When the controversy spilled to the other continents, every Rav who knew him personally was very careful with his honor. [One exception.] Those that never really knew him, specifically those who were on the receiving end of his failed outreach were aghast. They completely misunderstood the person and his goals. Rav Kook never responded to the personal attacks. Except to remind those close to him, that these were Rabbonim and their honor is very important for klal yisroel. With regards to the controversy itself, he would say let all the ‘Torah Scholars lead the Torah People. Leave the irreligious to me.’

Rav Kook did not have a concrete vision of a State or any kind of Zionist enterprise. He strived to fit everything he saw as a constructive purpose of Hashem’s World. He had little need for communal struggle. What could be Hashem’s Purpose in that?

In sum, Rav Kook entirely understood a nation as a nation only through Torah. And he understood the depth and breadth of Torah more than all of his very, very, very, great peers. There is nothing in any of his writings about replacing the Torah chas lmaymar. All though he worried about all Jews, especially the few remaining fully observant communities, he found that they all had competent leadership and he was either not needed or unwanted. Only the agricultural communists were completely bereft of a Torah Leader. He was talking to them. His own talmidim were not planting on shemitta. The rest of his following was not keeping anything for themselves anyways.

The main point is, that anyone who really studies Rav Kook’s writings, has no need for Zionism. It’s all about Hashem. The modern day anti Zionist camp is putting together a philosophical world view, and they reverse a few points and put the words in the mouths of the early Religious Zionists. They are the ones who suffer from a lack of identity. They do not identify with the majority of Jews. Not today. And not throughout history. They do not feel their pain or see their losses. They do not realize the dilemma. All they care about is being right in a public demonstration. And the last thing they ever care about, is how the Torah thinks about these issues.

Dear Avram,

The guidelines are meant for What is best for the public interest. For the best personal advice, ask a physician. The people who are just following the guidelines without any other medical input, are too blind to be given the best advice.

Dear Syag,

There were 138 injuries. Several concussions, burns, and broken bones. And who knows how many cases of long-term trauma. One death and four suicides. This was a singular event in the history of American Policing. A few hundred police without proper gear holding off thousands of rioters with stun guns, bear spray, metal bars, etc, for hours. Retreat and regroup was not an option. It was horrible.

Dear Coffee,

For that reason, remove Siri and Alexa completely. It’s unreal how much they interfere, especially as the software ages.

Dear Yitz,

It should be noted that Rav Moshe was very firm that cars do not interfere with the concept of Rishus Harabim. Rav Aaron Kotler as well. But it still would not be hotzeah. Because the car itself is always in it’s own place.

Dear Avira,

It’s very simple. You have not read much of the Religious Zionists. This was the core debate about Religionin Zionism. Your on the record here about knowing very little about Zionism besides for confusing it with Jewish Nationalism.

Secretary General of the Lev Tahor fan club.

Representing whom? Nobody but themselves.

Where still waiting for the yeshiva to call out their own.

You want to discuss kiruv and so on I’m right ahead. It’s very merry.

Dear Avira,

This is the first gate, not the fourth. Therefore, this only is accessible to the yid that reaches to all the upper levels. The next line says clearly that this is the tzaddik. And it says that he is the beis hamikdash mamash, and Hashem is within him.

Dear Always,

You have no idea. It was published over a hundred years ago.

Dear Avira,

Tanya chapter 2.

Nefesh Hachaim gate 1 note 4.

The fight about Lubavitch has ended. Not because of agreement or acceptance. But because Chabad does not need the other groups. And Chabad is not like Reform that necessitated schism. It is silly to think that all the Gedolim are in agreement with the Rebbe on everything. The Rebbe’s work when he was alive made it possible to not have to rehash it all today. So it is mostly left alone.

He needs to be from Malchus Beis Dovid.

Dear Ts,

I would appreciate an answer. Does the Rebbe have to resume breathing, before he can definitely be proven to be moshiach?

Dear Avira,

This conversation is deteriorating rapidly. I never said anything like him saving the yeshiva world. There is plenty of room in this world for great people of all kinds. If none of them were controversial, than none of them would be great. I know this goes against your concept of
my way
is the only way
and I’m sure that is what your rabbi meant to say
if not he wasn’t a real rabbi anyway
anyone who disagrees cannot come to play
only those who want to be just like me can stay
and Look! all that I can see
are saying exactly like me

But I’m sure it gets lonely with a lack of opinions to consider. Rumor has it, that you already passeled all the Gedolim on planet X! So you can try to find the Rishon who writes that controversial people is a characteristic of greatness. If you can’t accept that there is greatness beyond your sphere, it’s only your loss.

Well, we know how one talmid compared the Rayatz and Rav Aaron. Rav Aaron was very, very humble. Any real talmid of the R”Y zatzal has a real hard time criticizing anybody. Even those that deserve heaps of criticism. I’ve not heard them discuss Chabad much, but they all were very impressed once they met the Rebbe. Rav Belsky did tell me that the R”Y zatzal did not hold of the Rebbe. He quoted Rav Aaron about two other aspects of Chabad.

I did not say the Rebbe was able to learn like a Rosh Yeshiva. Rav Belsky had a very high bar for everything. Did you ever ask him if Rav Shach knew how to learn, or if he learned Rav Shach’s Torah?

Dear Gadol,

It is baffling to me how data will establish causation for global warming. It can be deduced from small scale experiments or mass computation. But after all there will always be some ambiguity.

Maybe you missed the word tribal, as in African tribes. I did not mean partisanship. Otherwise, I’m missing your post.

Dear Avira,

Just thinking….. Shouldn’t those two issues in a way cancel each other out?

I just came across an expert on pink flying monkeys. Though I’m not sure he is frum enough to meet the criteria of this thread.