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1/6 was a constitutional crisis – meaning that the idea of having a liberal democracy that really works for the people, was at risk of being lost. Or maybe even, it has been lost.
Note – who really knows?
Constitutional crisis – in regular times that could just mean that the Constitution is being tested to see if the government system set up by the Constitution really works as it is intended too. Or can it be subverted. It can also be called a test on the limits of the Constitution. A basic example could be court packing.
No-one in the government planned or supported the anti police riots – while some officials, especially chiefs of police openly supported the protests, none of them said to burn and loot property.
The anti police riots never got out of control – the riots were contained to small areas, they almost never threaten the larger area. It wasn’t like the anti police riots in years past that gripped the whole city. Even though there was lawlessness over whole city blocks, this was the police strategy to keep the protest centered on themselves and cut off from the rest of the city.
Jam 6 could have been a lot worse – the barricades held up until better equipped forces showed up and cleared the Capitol. Had they not, Pelosi and other members of Congress are probably dead. They might have found Pence and had him hung. The building may have been completely sacked. And there would have been hundreds of casualties among the rioters when the Armed Forces shows up too late. In short real civil war.
These last two posts, cut right to the heart of the matter.
One calls it an instruction. The other side points out that they were pressuring the government, not becoming the government.
I think we could agree, that if there was a person who was a go between the White House and the protest, than we have an insurrection. Meaning, say that Wood had Lindel contact the Math Keepers to hype the protest, so that Wood would be assured of extreme pressure on Pence, that is an orchestrated attempt to use non legal ways to maintain power. But if there was no go between, and Wood was relying on the President’s tweets to stir up the pressure and the protest simultaneously, than that is not directly illegal. It becomes a little bit twisted right to gather like the race protests that went way to far. Trump said in his speech were going to go down to the Capitol, not into the Capitol. So he did not encourage the attack. He may have wanted it out of spite, but it probably hurt the plan.
To recap, the White House did not interrupt Congress. And the protesters did not know their role in the plan. If there was a middle man, than that would close this loophole.
Now if you say, but isn’t this a whole wink, wink, from the Administration to the protest? The answer is that is this discussion. The racial protests also looked like a wink, wink, to many people. Especially the Jan 6 crowd.
It wasn’t a protest, it was an insurrection – is taking about the crazy theories being thrown around in the White House about how they could retain power. Their plan? hope? was to Presque Pence to overturn the results. They needed large crowds outside the Capitol and Congressman inside to vote against certifying the vote.
They weren’t coming to overthrow the government – this means that the protest by the Capitol had no way of keeping Trump in office. They were there to go to the building So that their protest would influence the proceedings.
The States ignored the racial riots – some may not remember, but there was a lot of rhetoric about calling in the National Guard. Every Governor almost every time, refused to bring them in to protect property.
Jan 6 rioters say BLM get away with it – I think this means that they moved into restricted government areas, while the government took it’s time to evict them. Certifying the election would take at most three days. Given that some areas were ceded to the racial protests for weeks, the election protesters may have thought that they will not be pushed out until after Congress dispersed. If I remember correctly, the BLM protest on Pennsylvania Avenue lasted a couple of days.
The efforts to overturn the election were following the Constitution – this means to say that the full session of Congress came to the Capitol at the correct time and followed the decorum of the day. It does not mean that the Vice President had full autonomy to do as he saw fit under the Constitution.
Mostly peaceful protests – this is including all the vigils that were held all over the country in local parks and down main street. There were hundreds and hundreds of them, so they outnumber the craziness of the destructive protests.
My committee has broken all the rules! Okay I’ll go along with the new scheme.
The hardest part of this conversation is the terms. People mean different things with the same words. I’ll try to list then one post at a time. For best results, I’m aiming for how those who say there phrases intend them to be understood. Not how the other side responding understands them.
Dear Mizmor,
If that standard applied to this page, then it should be applied to me just for questioning your post.
Why are you assuming that he forgot his login to the national yichus registry?
Dear Reb Eliezer,
More like it’s a gateway to shmoozing. The gemara in taanis is not advocating study partners. Ayin sham.
Dear Nisht,
Sorry I overrated what you meant.
1. The point is, it’s on your screen. Your the one who ‘wrote it’. Assuming you don’t see yourself as a min, if you approve of the content, there is no problem here. It is regular Torah.
2. Here is what I once pondered on this halachah. Is it a regular k’sav without kedushas stam? Is it no kedushah at all, but it looks like sheimos, so we save it? Is it a full kedushah but minus can’t be Torah, so it’s burned?
3. It is even more clear from the contents of the sefarim that are treasured on our shelves, that we have been using these sources when the contents are good.
Dear Big,
My apikorsus is my own. That’s why I work off what you say, without trying to paint a picture of you. It doesn’t matter. Even someone like Hauptmann could sometimes have a good point.
But your picture is all wrong. If your Rebbe is stuck on a Reb Akiva Eiger, I’ll help him out.
Dr. Judith Haupttman available on sefaria.
Dear Avira,
Mach’chish magideah means to reject them as the transistors of Torah. It’s intrinsic to the phrase. Your stretching it.
Dear The little,
I don’t see a problem. Some drop outs do really well. Not good, excellent! What’s your complaint?
Dear Avira,
Without heavy influence from some misinformed maskil, why would chazal only be truthful when darshaning a possuk? Similarly, who is the one to decide when a gemara has conclusions and when it is not? You completely missed this point a hundred times. But let’s try a hundred and one.
You do not believe one bit of chazal to be truthful. You demand for yourself the right to arbitrate every word of every talmid chacham ever. And if no arbitration is possible you just write him off completely.
Sorry for the strong words. I’m hoping my point is clear, now. The fact is that there are yeshiva guys saying Slifkin is an apikorus and also chazal had some silly idea that we could eat bugs in fish.
Many great people wrote long essays on how to approach the pursuit of the truth. If a learning guy has no interest in that then fine. It seems like a contradiction, but it is his life. If he is so insecure about his own objectivity, that’s his own issue. Nobody should abandon the truth, because somebody else is afraid of it.
If this whole pilpul shell hevel was true, than why couldn’t the Rambam and Ramban address it in the shoroshim? And the blatant fact is, that they both wrote about believing chazal dozens of times. And they do not have your dogma. Not one drop of it. They talk about proof and evidence and ??? the last part they do not call it trusting chazal, get ready for this. They call it some funny word….. EMES.
Dear Mizmor,
To what race do cats belong?
Why does the Mishna and Rambam use consider deciding to toil in Torah and not work as a “crown to glorify oneself with”?
Why does the Mishna and Rambam use consider deciding to toil in Torah and not work as a “crown to glorify oneself with”?
“gateway to all learning.” Overstatement.
Always keep a dog by the window.
Doing it to solve the shidduch crisis would also be dumb.
That’s a nice view. But it’s not the Rambam’s view. Both of those people would/could be out of a portion in the world to come.
Dear Real,
I wouldn’t put any of them on the level of Meshuga.
Dear Yehudis,
The question is what degree of truth should automatically be attached to chazal’s statements. The rishonim discussed this matter. Your not saying anything revolutionary, or demonstrating any particular insight.
If you have a problem with trashing the planet, than there are many egregious polluters to go after. If a poster recycles or does not, is between him/her and his/her local ordinances.
Dear Real,
Please note, that the OP had no quibble with spending years in kollel. The question is if the yeshiva is getting the most it can out of these guys.
Dear Real,
Way too many long term learners have nothing to say when they are asked what the cumulative result of years spent sitting and learning.
Dear Real,
Not a tremendous amount, a fair amount of yedios.
Dear Real,
The Rosh Yeshivos have said many times that it is not the right thing.
Dear Chaylev,
One can be an expert in part of Shas too.
Dear Chaylev,
It takes an average mind a few years just to realize what an expert is.
On the title, that’s an easy one: BOTH.
Dear Big,
First verify that they used her translations. They didn’t they used Koren. Did they put anything of hers into the Online Talmud? I doubt it. She’s not a layman’s kind of scholar. It’s your assumption that her ideas are mixed into the site. Prove it. The fact that you got so bent out of shape without realizing that you perf seeing song lyrics when you where looking for mefarshim on a passuk. If they have Hauptmann singing songs and you think that’s her saying a heretical pshat in the gemara, we’re not going to ban Sefaria. We’ll shun you for being unreliable.
So you are unaware of all three. I’m not c”v rejecting any of them. But your history is vary selective.
Dear Meshuga,
How would one go about getting in to meet you?
Dear Avira,
History wrote you off to, before you rewrote it. But you get to decide who was or wasn’t written off. As well who is accepted now. So of course, History must be on your side. Chazal practically said so I’m your previous post.
It’s telling that you left off Rav Yisrael Salanter and the Ben Ish Chai. And you have no idea how problematic the Ramchal was.
Dear Big,
The translations are from koren. Which is all men. I don’t know what they added from women. Additional translations? No problem. Links to mefarshim? No problem. Background information? No problem. I don’t use sefaria much, so I can’t guess more. You’ll have to find out what the women contribute before anyone should care about your gripes.
Your ignorance is nobody’s problem but your own.
Dear Nisht,
It’s on a screen. So that’s not really a factor here. Let’s keep the issue to content.
Dear Big,
Translations? No.
Do you see anything wrong about learning Bircas Shmuel from a Rosh Yeshiva who can’t quote tosafos straight?
Dear Avira,
So your fooling yourself instead of being called a fool.
If you really believe that you must take chazal’s word for it, than you would. And say it’s a crushing question, I’m sorry I can’t help you but I believe chazal more than all the evidence of the world.
By your counter-attacking anyone who disagrees with your belief system and insisting that chazal have not been disputed by the evidence, you demonstrate that whole chazal-knew-everything-even-if-they-never-said-it belief system is a cover up.
If you have strong convictions, it’s worth being called a fool for them. Just simple values. Drop the intellectual superiority for once. Chazal had great human insight, besides their intellectual pursuit of wisdom.
Dear Yehudis,
I think you meant our view of the world has changed, instead of we should change our worldview.
Dear Coffee,
If it’s that’s kind of problem, than we can just look at the product and see what it is. What’s wrong with sefaria? I can’t vouch for it, but a bachur coming across song lyrics and then clicking on the link to Facebook, is not a standard breaker to me.
At this point the yeshiva world uses the internet. The whole public outcry, is just to hide that fact.
No. Ridicules idea.